Does love come back/what do I do

[helplesshopeless]

Nc for this.

Advice needed please, I've created a huge mess and can't see a way out/what is for the best. This may be long.

I am married with a 3yo. DH has always had a nasty temper, I've suggested anger management counselling numerous times but to no avail. The last few years since having my child have been really difficult. He's generally spoken to me with contempt and disdain a lot of the time, with occasional temper flashes, arguments are always toxic, things could get very nasty (never physical). On a day to day basis we would be civil enough to eachother, but nasty looks and snappiness from him were definitely daily as well, with bigger flare ups fairly regularly. We have had happy family times too and we both dote on our child.

All of this treatment from my DH culminated in my withdrawing from him and ultimately having an affair the last few months, with someone who made me feel loved and cared for. It was mainly an emotional affair but there was a small amount of physical contact (we did not have sex). This is someone that I work with, so although we're wfh at the moment, he is in team zoom meetings etc.

My DH found everything out last week. He is angry but also devastated. I have never seen him so upset and it has shocked me that he cares that much about me. He has completely woken up to how he's been treating me and is committed to having anger management therapy and working on things with me. I obviously am ashamed of what I have done and there is no excuse for my behaviour, but he does recognise that his treatment of me took me to a place where I was open to someone else. I still can't believe I had an affair because it is so against my morals and I fully deserve to be judged for it.

We are working on things and will get relationship counselling. There's a lot of self esteem issues that my husband struggles with, especially since we had our child as he's felt like he's been stuck on the outside looking in, and he thinks this is why he's been treating me how he has. I do understand this and it makes sense, but it doesn't change how he's treated me in the past and how damaging I have found it.

My husband wants me to leave my work so there's no interaction with the other man. I totally understand his point but am reluctant to do this as I'd then feel trapped.

I want to get back to a happy place with my husband. I don't want to feel trapped with him. I don't know if I can find my way back to loving him, whether all of this is coming too late after years of awful treatment. I accept I have behaved in a disgusting way and deserve all of this fall out, and am so worried about the impact on our child and how I'd manage if we separate. I am also concerned about the impact on my husband if things don't work as he has been explaining how it will crush him and he'd never be able to trust anyone again if we don't manage to work through this.

I just don't know if my heart is in this anymore, I want to be able to be happy with him and love him and our family deserves for me to work on this and fully commit to getting back on track, but I have no idea if I'll ever get back to where I need to be.

I am ashamed to admit I still have feelings for the other guy. I could obviously never be with him anyway so that is irrelevant, but it's clouding my judgement. I need to hear from people who have learnt to love their husbands again. Is that a thing? Will we ever get there?

I still can't believe any of this is happening.

My struggle is that he genuinely has seen the light in his behaviour, he's not a bad man by any means, and I really do think things could be much better between us. However, in the meantime, he is being slowly tortured because he desperately wants to feel love from me to help him feel more secure with me after my affair, and he is still anxious and upset over what I've done, but I'm struggling to show any love, especially while he is appearing anxious and upset as that puts me on edge (not because he is behaving in an unpleasant way, which he isn't, just more because I need some normality to try and settle my own emotions). So we are in a vicious unresolving cycle!

It's just a very sad situation and I really feel awful that I can't offer him any more of myself at the moment to help him feel better. And yes, I do feel responsibly for his feelings, because he's in turmoil over my own bad behaviour, and I need to take responsibility for my part in that. It's just all very shit!

That's great for him if he's seen the light: if he learns from his mistakes and actually becomes a better partner, that will do him good in the future when he's finding a new partner.

But he has only shown signs of seeing the light because of your affair and the fact that you want to split up - because you don't love him. If that is the price he has to pay for becoming a better person, it's not your fault. Nothing else convinced him.

@ravenmum

That's great for him if he's seen the light: if he learns from his mistakes and actually becomes a better partner, that will do him good in the future when he's finding a new partner.

But he has only shown signs of seeing the light because of your affair and the fact that you want to split up - because you don't love him. If that is the price he has to pay for becoming a better person, it's not your fault. Nothing else convinced him.

^ Perfectly put...

I think the trouble with people talking about "abusive relationships," and the reason we never realise we're in one, is that it suggests a man exerting power, deliberately, to hurt. In reality, coercive control is more likely to come from a place of weakness, notably anxiety. And a relationship dynamic will have built up around that, of the woman propping him up and "supporting" him, and the more she does that, the more anxious he is not to lose her, so he continues to undermine her.

It's not a healthy way to carry on, for either person.

Don't worry OP, his facade will slip soon and perhaps when he goes back to the true selfish and unkind him (the one he's been for years now) you will finally give yourself permission to leave.
It all sounds like torture at the moment.

his facade will slip soon

I think what makes this difficult is that he is genuinely behaving as though his life depends on it, because he really does feel that. So there is no pretence involved.

OP, maybe the thing that might give you permission to end things is just thinking of his well-being into the future. His best chance of becoming a more well-rounded person is to stand on his own two feet.

Well, with respect, no, if he had seen the light truly about the impact of his behaviour, he would take a step back from all this desperately needing to feel some love from you and slowly being tortured hyperbole and recognise that the combined effect of his behaviour and your affair mean that the marriage has been badly damaged and rebuilding will take time, space and a LOT of patience with that. That is the place you are in.

In actuality, you are still focusing on managing his emotions, which is his responsibility. And in managing his emotions, you have no space to untangle your own.

It is a vicious circle yes, but probably the same one which had you minding your behaviour in response to his temper and contempt mentioned in your OP. It is just manifesting differently. No doubt you learned then that his feelings were your responsibility.

The lesson you learned before your affair possibly was that managing/avoiding his temper was detrimental to your well-being so you looked for a way to improve your well-being outside the relationship.

The affair gave him a stick to beat you with, you are also using that stick to beat yourself with as you think his emotions are your responsibility, and the lessons seem to me the same, just dressed up differently. That managing his temper(ament), however it manifests, is detrimental to your well-being. What exactly does ‘showing him love’ mean in practice? If you are stuck in a situation where ‘showing love’ means physical intimacy and you cannot give that, then there are huge issues around consent and coercion, however it is dressed up.

And a relationship dynamic will have built up around that, of the woman propping him up and "supporting" him, and the more she does that, the more anxious he is not to lose her, so he continues to undermine her.
This is so insightful.

if he had seen the light truly about the impact of his behaviour, he would take a step back from all this desperately needing to feel some love from you and slowly being tortured hyperbole and recognise that the combined effect of his behaviour and your affair mean that the marriage has been badly damaged and rebuilding will take time, space and a LOT of patience with that. That is the place you are in.

And this. Wish I'd read both of these when my marriage was ending.

op he is still making it all about him. If you stay, next step will be to tell you not to bring his behaviour up as you've forgiven him and need to move on.

What is he doing to support you?

But he has only shown signs of seeing the light because of your affair and the fact that you want to split up - because you don't love him. If that is the price he has to pay for becoming a better person, it's not your fault. Nothing else convinced him.

This is another struggle of mine (and sorry, I know how frustrating I am being!), that I didn't make it clear enough how damaging his behaviour was, I just kind of carried on putting up with it and making the most of things. So I didn't give him an opportunity to properly see the light before the affair. This is what he keeps saying too, that if he had known sooner he absolutely would have done something about it.

In reality, coercive control is more likely to come from a place of weakness, notably anxiety. And a relationship dynamic will have built up around that, of the woman propping him up and "supporting" him, and the more she does that, the more anxious he is not to lose her, so he continues to undermine her.

That really struck a chord with me, and like a pp said is so insightful. He's said himself that he thinks the root of his treatment of me was partly due to self esteem around not being good enough for me. He's also said he's used to me being the one to make him feel better about things, which I clearly can't do here.

In actuality, you are still focusing on managing his emotions, which is his responsibility. And in managing his emotions, you have no space to untangle your own.

This is so true, and something my therapist has touched on around me not needing to look after everyone before me. I do feel like everything I do at the moment is driven by what kind of mood he's in (ie positive, happy, sad, anxious) and I alter my behaviour accordingly. It is leaving me with little head space to try and decipher my own thoughts! To be fair to him though he does keep asking me what he can do to give me space etc and is keen to help with that.

What exactly does ‘showing him love’ mean in practice? If you are stuck in a situation where ‘showing love’ means physical intimacy and you cannot give that, then there are huge issues around consent and coercion, however it is dressed up.

He has been very understanding about no sex, and still is, but he's very 'keen' at the moment and is struggling to not make comments/suggestions in that respect (he then apologises for going on about it!). So yes there probably is an element of unintentional coercion, he keeps saying he doesn't understand how he is suddenly so vile to me that I can't bare to touch him. So I do feel a bit of pressure despite him saying he absolutely doesn't want to pressure me. As I've mentioned a while down the thread; we just have very different needs at the moment and so it's a difficult period.

op he is still making it all about him. If you stay, next step will be to tell you not to bring his behaviour up as you've forgiven him and need to move on.

Funnily enough he'd probably say I've made this all about me! I think he feels hard done by that he's not getting the 'typical' response that someone would normally get when they've been cheated on - he wants to see lots of remorse and active attempts from me to rebuild/reconnect (he's reading lots of articles about what should happen to fix things post-affair), and he deserves that, but I am just not in that place.

Well to go back to a previous poster, you shouldn't have to tell a grown adult that speaking to someone with contempt and disdain is not OK. He should care about his role in why you don't love him any more, not make it your fault cos you didn't tell him.

Have you watched this?
www.ted.com/talks/esther_perel_rethinking_infidelity_a_talk_for_anyone_who_has_ever_loved?utm_campaign=tedspread&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=tedcomshare

She says "the victim of the affair is not always the victim of the marriage". Might be helpful.

Thank you @QuentinBunbury sounds interesting, I'll check it out!

It has a transcript if you prefer reading to watching. It could also be one to watch with DH to have a more constructive conversation

I didn't make it clear enough how damaging his behaviour was, I just kind of carried on putting up with it and making the most of things. So I didn't give him an opportunity...

Oh OP, I think you might be married to my ex-DH 😂

The trouble with all this "It's my fault he didn't notice how miserable he was making me" is that honestly, it's much nicer being with someone who can actually SEE when you're upset by something and doesn't need it spelt out in flashing neon signs! I'd actually say that kind of understanding is absolutely crucial to a happy relationship.

I can totally totally relate to all that you're going through. It was very similar for me. Exhausting.

For me, whenever people told me I wasn't responsible for his feelings, I was like, "yeah, sure." 🤨 I mean, I knew it in theory, but absolutely didn't feel it or believe it.

I keep having to remind myself that I'm not responsible for my STBex-partners feelings too. He knows it's over now and is understandably devastated and is basically saying his life is over and he can't do this that or the other because he is too angry and upset. I keep trying to be nice and trying to fix things for him but he's probably just doing it to make me feel guilty. When I start to feel bad about my decision to end it, I think of the below situation...

Just over a year ago he refused to let me out of our bedroom while he shouted at me about something ridiculous, while the dc were crying and scared in their room, because he couldn't deal with leaving the house with the argument unresolved. I can't even remember what he was angry about but I remember him standing in front of the closed door refusing to let me go and comfort the dc. I remember feeling trapped and scared. He made the dc 45 mins late for school and himself late for work.

The other day I finally broke and told him I couldn't tolerate the way he speaks to me any more. Obviously an argument ensued and I brought up the above situation. He said, and I quote, "I didn't realise how much that would affect you because of the abuse in your previous relationship". So he blamed his abuse affecting me so badly because my previous partner was also abusive. When I asked if he realised how ridiculous that sounds and told him he shouldn't have done it in first place etc etc, he just just turned it back on me again saying he didn't realise how badly it would affect me.

This is why I'm ending it. Because no responsible, caring person would ever do that to their family or someone they supposedly love.

@TheThermalStair

He doesn’t have to be “an abuser” to make living with him an absolute pain though. Nor does there need to be sufficient reason for you to fall out of love with him. Being an extreme dickhead (enjoyed that phrase!) really is reason and explanation enough, this isn’t a court - it’s your feelings.

I’m with PP that I suspect that his “finding this very difficult” relates to his astonishment that you’re not on your knees begging forgiveness but are instead having the temerity to dig into deeper issues in the relationship.

It really does sound like you need some space to think.

I was just going to say something like this, thank you for point this out. My DH was not abusive, not in the conventional sort of way. He never hit me or shouted at me or called me names. However, he is a narcissist who thinks he is always right, and I felt that he never respected me, appreciated me or loved me the way I needed to be loved. Fast forward 25 years later, I am getting ready to file for a divorce. All the little things he did or said eroded my love for him (and boy did I love him) and at this point in time I simply do not want to be with him anymore. So, my point is, no matter what he did or did not do what is really important here is how you feel and what you want. Just remember, you have the right to want and feel, and you have the right to be happy.

^ True story. I love everyone's comments on this thread.

Just remember, you have the right to want and feel, and you have the right to be happy.

It's taken me years (since leaving ex-DH) to start believing this, and I still have trouble really convincing myself that I'm not responsible for other people's feelings. Crazy, huh!

Amazing now to be married to someone who is never moody at all and would never dream of pinning blame on me for anything.

I think we just get so used to carrying that burden, it seems a normal part of life.

@InterstellarOverdrive
"I didn't realise how much that would affect you because of the abuse in your previous relationship."

Blimey! Doesn't that sound a bit close for comfort to
"I thought I could get away with murder because you must have low expectations." 🤣

Congratulations on finding a way out of this trap.

@Alcemeg I know! I'm was hoping for a quicker way out but he's probably not going to be able to move for 4 months 😬 I've got my own thread on that topic! Bloody awkward it is.

@ InterstellarOverdrive
My DH just texted me that he may be able to move out on Jul 15. Immediately I texted him, no, you do not have to go yet, until you are back on your feet. Bloody hell, guilt is killing me.

This is another struggle of mine (and sorry, I know how frustrating I am being!), that I didn't make it clear enough how damaging his behaviour was, I just kind of carried on putting up with it and making the most of things. So I didn't give him an opportunity to properly see the light before the affair.

Is this a thought that's come out of your own head, or out of his?

From your posts, it seems as if it's something he raised with you some time ago, and has kept hammering home that point, and now you believe it yourself.

Think of it another way. Your husband's default behaviour, his underlying nature, was to treat you like crap, shout at you and take out his anger on you. Now you have raised that as an issue and he complains you didn't point it out sooner. But his default position, how he naturally behaved, was to treat you like shit. And now his argument is with you, saying it's your fault for not pointing out that treating you like shit is bad. It's DARVO at its finest I hope you open your eyes soon OP before you waste any more time twisting yourself in knots to justify how he's treated you. You sound like an extremely thoughtful, considerate person. You deserve someone who's default is to treat you in a loving way and with respect.

@Cavagirl what's DARVO? Never heard that one before.

@Dozycuntlaters

Firstly, do not give up your job, that's so important.

Inherently we are who we are, so although your husband may be trying now only time will tell if he can keep it up, but sadly I imagine he will slip back to who he was, once he has you even more dependent on him.

My marriage was like this on a lesser scale, and every time he told me to fuck off or sling my hook or call me an idiot a piece of my love died and in the end it was gone. Just gone. And I left. I really do think once those feelings have gone it is very hard to get them back, and quite frankly I',m not sure he deserves it. Your emotional affair was an exit affair, a catalyst for you to see there is a different life out there for you.

He's only being nice because he doesn't want you to go, he honestly won't stay nice.

I was going to write something but honestly this post says it all. Don't give up your job. He won't change forever. He's nasty. You deserve better. Your child deserves a better home environment. Be strong OP x

The trouble with all this "It's my fault he didn't notice how miserable he was making me" is that honestly, it's much nicer being with someone who can actually SEE when you're upset by something and doesn't need it spelt out in flashing neon signs! I'd actually say that kind of understanding is absolutely crucial to a happy relationship.

Amazing now to be married to someone who is never moody at all and would never dream of pinning blame on me for anything.

I do often think about how nice it would be to be with someone like that! And now my husband is trying to be that for me, but it just doesn't ring true to me because I know what he is capable of. I also feel like he's only concerned with how I'm feeling in relation to how it impacts him/whether any 'unfreezing' is occurring! I'm sure that's unfair of me but I just can't see that he truly cares for me despite how he acts now.

From your posts, it seems as if it's something he raised with you some time ago, and has kept hammering home that point, and now you believe it yourself.

Yes, he's raised this quite a few times. Not in anger, just more in upset that he wishes he could have made the change before the affair made things even worse for us. And I just don't have any answer for it because he is so so rational and black and white about everything that I can't come up with an argument back!

I hope you open your eyes soon OP before you waste any more time twisting yourself in knots to justify how he's treated you. You sound like an extremely thoughtful, considerate person. You deserve someone who's default is to treat you in a loving way and with respect.

Thank you, that made me well up a bit. I just really struggle to let go of what I think his potential could be (vs what past experiences tells me he more often is). Also, I married the guy knowing what he was sometimes like, so it seems a bit callous to cut and run when he is possibly on the brink of becoming a better version of himself! Feeling very much under obligation/like I owe him.

interstellarOverdrive and loveyourself2020 big well done to you both for being so strong and taking the leap. I hope things settle down and become less awkward for you over the next few months!

I know I keep saying thank you for all of your comments, but you have no idea how much I appreciate you all. I am acutely aware of how frequently I am going round in circles and how frustrating it must be for you, but you're all being so kind and patient with me! It really is helping me to hear your perspectives and experiences

@helplesshopeless . You say that your husband used to be like this

DH has always had a nasty temper, I've suggested anger management counselling numerous times but to no avail. The last few years since having my child have been really difficult. He's generally spoken to me with contempt and disdain a lot of the time, with occasional temper flashes, arguments are always toxic, things could get very nasty (never physical). On a day to day basis we would be civil enough to eachother, but nasty looks and snappiness from him were definitely daily as well, with bigger flare ups fairly regularly

So what happened when he spoke to his friend, family and colleagues with contempt and disdain ? Because apparently he didn’t know it was wrong so he must have been treating everyone in his life like that.

What happens at his work when he is nasty and snappy with his boss? When he has big flare ups with his clients / Customers ? When he has regular toxic arguments with his mates?

How do your neighbours react to the nasty looks and snappiness ?

I’m also confused why you are the only person who every called him out on this. Why has everyone else put up silently with his awful behaviour, never drawing it to his attention, lodging a grievance at work or taking disciplinary action ? Why has he never lost his job, been kicked out the pub, banned from shops or been arrested and charged by the police ?

Why have his family never told him not to treat them like this?

I’m really struggling to understand this. He has treated everyone in his life in this horrible way for years and no one even mentioned it, let alone told him off about it.

You did of course but he didn’t listen. Because you didn’t tell him in the right way or right words or clearly enough or in the right tone of voice or at the right time ( I assume ).

Then finally you have an affair ( or a neo affair ) and suddenly for first time he understands that his behaviour is wrong and he stops it and becomes a totally different person to you, his family and friends, colleagues and customers.

What a huge transformation of his whole life! And he has managed to do this is just a few short weeks, without any therapy , counselling , mentor or support group.

What are all the other people in his life saying about this? Does his boss understand that she was part of the problem here, because she didn’t make it clear how damaging his behaviour was?

What about his colleagues and clients , who just carried on putting up with it and making the most of things?

What about his mates who didn't give him an opportunity to properly see the light ? Do they know it’s their fault because if they had told him sooner he absolutely would have done something about it.

How is everyone reacting to this almost overnight complete change in who he is and how he treats people ? Everyone must be talking about it and asking you what has happened.

I also feel like he's only concerned with how I'm feeling in relation to how it impacts him/whether any 'unfreezing' is occurring! I'm sure that's unfair of me but I just can't see that he truly cares for me despite how he acts now.

This is not unfair OP, it's extremely insightful. You are right. In fact, I read back all your posts to pick out the below quotes and I was shocked at how much of this thread is actually about him, not you. It may feel to him as if you are "making it all about you" as you say above - but I'd say that was because, in the past, it was 100% about him, and now you're actually taking some time to figure out what you actually want, to him that feels hugely uncomfortable and unfair. But to the observer, it is not. What's that famous saying? When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

@InterstellarOverdrive

DARVO stands for Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender. It's a manipulation technique used (subconsciously) by abusers (although often also by Extreme Dickheads) when someone tries to make them accountable for their behaviour.

For example, in this instance:

Deny: he says he had no idea I was so unhappy. From his perspective he'd always behaved like this (albeit he's got worse in last few years), and while I'd be upset in the moment, he thought everything was fine overall

Attack: from his perspective he'd always had his temper issue, and I still married him and had a baby with him, and nothing has changed, so how was he to know how bad things were?

Reverse Victim and Offender: he thinks he's not been given a chance to make everything right as he feels like I've already written him off

And it's worked: I do still feel terrible that I chose to just jump ship with an affair instead of first trying every option to improve things with him.