What a mess. Just a really, really rubbish situation

[AnonymousMamaof2]

Ok, so I need to do some scene setting first.

DH and I met whilst working in Birmingham (we just worked there, no family connections whatsoever to the place). We had our child there but always knew we didn't want to raise a family in the city. Shortly after DC1 we made the decision to leave and move to the area where I grew up (which is nowhere near where my DH is from and he has zero connections here). He was driving the move more than I was, saying it would be a nicer area to bring up kids (which it is, it's amazing: rural, beautiful, near very supportive grandparents who look after the kids 3x a week etc).

I had been doing well in my career and I am the main breadwinner. However that means I work away for 2 days a week (incl 1 night). My parents insist they help us and have the grandchildren 2.5x days a week. It's mainly because they literally DOTE on the grandchildren, I have never seen anything like it. They are almost obsessed. But likewise the bond my kids have with them is also very special. Admittedly we could just put the kids in creche a bit more, but (a) my folks would be hurt (they would move heaven and earth to have the kids) and (b) what's the point of living where we are, if we're not using the support network which was one of the plusses of moving up here. Plus I quite like the bond my kids have with my folks.

So that's me and the kids.

DH worked (in Birmingham) in a very city based role, he can only do that work for a corporate city firm. That kind of work is nowhere to be seen where we live now. So, before we moved, after several discussions with my folks, he moved to working with my Mum in her business, which is completely different to anything he's ever done. Not even the skills in his previous city role would have been transferrable, other than perhaps (very loosely) people management. So it's very different to anything he's ever done but he was super keen to get involved.

Mum has grown the business from nothing and it's thriving. She lives and breathes it and has been running it now for nearly 40 years. The original idea was that she would then take a step back and he would take a step up (i.e. the future). She kept saying that the business needed new blood. But it reeeeally hasn't worked out like that.

I can see failings on both sides. She is very abrupt and almost aggressive in the way she deals with people. She's super efficient, operates at 110mph, nothing gets left undone. She's just constantly firing on all cylinders. That said, she can be very scatty and makes mistakes. There are very few processes. V little stored electronically. She operates heavily by bits of paper here n there. No idea how to use spreadsheets etc. All v old school. But clearly it has worked for her because the business is really successful.

DH on the other hand is the total opposite. Calmer, slower, not so engaged with the staff (she's the type that would send any of her staff a generous new baby gift if they had new babies, would know their kids' names etc when she has 70+ staff to manage... he is (well) a stereotypical man and just wouldn't be interested). Her personal touch with staff is what she's really known for. She will roll her sleeves up and get in the thick of it (and is v respected for that), he would probably delegate more.

So they have very different styles. Truth be told, if anything were to happen to Mum tomorrow and he had to step up and take over, I'd have been slightly worried at him running the show (and that's after nearly 4 years of being in the business!).

Now don't get me wrong, there was never any need for them to take him in, we know that. But we didn't quite think it would go as it has. In hindsight I think a lot of it is that (a) she's a VERY had task master, hard to please; and (b) no-one will ever run your own business like yourself so, despite his different management style, he has always (now, in hindsight) been on a bit of a hiding to nothing.

Anyway, the relationship with Mum has become absolutely horrendous over the past 18 months since she has started to pick him up for things he's missing. She says that she's meant to be taking a step back and is paying him to take over her role, yet in reality she's (apparently) working more than ever, until midnight every night to keep things running as she likes it. DH says that there must be a completely different side to the business that she runs that they don't let him in on. Looking at this from afar (and knowing both characters), DH operates very much on a "list" basis. If he has 10 things on his list then that's all he thinks he has on. In reality he probably just doesn't think that far outside the box as to what Mum could be doing at night. On the other hand, I think Mum can be v anal so....

Aaaanyway she called him in a few weeks ago. Basically told him the business is being "restructured". DH would not be doing his current role and they had "created" a new role in another part of the business for him, completely unrelated to what he's been doing - and learning - for the past 4 years. He sees it as them sacking him and creating a made up role for him simply because he's their son in law and because they want us to stay living nearby so they can see the grandchildren. I tend to agree with that, but I also do think he'd be quite well suited to this new role (which I don't think is entirely a "fake" role because it's stuff that needs doing and relates to the future growth of the company, so probably more his bag).

Anyway, after they told him about these new "restructuring" plans, they told him to take a month away from "them" and from the business (!). He has been at home feeling totally lost, upset, hurt. I expected he'd accept that new role and make it work (he admits himself it sounds exciting) but he's decided (and I kinda agree) because of the sheer stress of working for family and he just wants out. He says they've pulled the rug from beneath his feet with his initial role so could do it again, and he's not getting any younger. He is also sick of constantly having to defend himself and how he operates. It's exhausting and I get it.

He has told Mum & Dad that he won't be accepting the new role and they didn't argue back. They said they'd always support him in whatever way they could, but in reality I think they are just relieved that he's out of their hair.

The question is what now. For him. For our family.

We live in a rural area. There are NO roles here which is anything like his previous city based role. He would need to travel at least 1h15 mins each way to the nearest city, and even then it's a small-ish hub that would have satellite corporate offices, not mainstream HQs etc.

He says he's been out of that corporate world now for 4 years so he'll struggle to get anything at the level he previously was at, especially where we're based. Otherwise, there is NADA going. It's demoralising. He's so bright, successful, had a glimmering career in London, and now he's on the floor and doesn't know what to do with himself.

One option (which is heart wants to do) is for us, as a family, to sell up and move to Edinburgh (where he's from) where there would be heaps of jobs (for him), better paid, he'd be close to his family and friends etc. But not for me. It's a different jurisdiction so wouldn't work for my career. As I say, I already spend 1 night 2 days away each week which I could (in paper) still do but it would entail me flying down to work each week. I just don't want to do that. I have young kids. I don't want that stress. Me leaving my job and getting something else up in Edinburgh is also not an option because I've been there for 16 years, I have a good rep there and I'm the main breadwinner. Not that this should be a reason not to move, but it would also kill my parents who live for the grandchildren every week.

We feel a bit lost. He fully supports me not leaving my role. He knows me leaving isn't an option and he keeps saying that. But it's a terrible situation because:

• where we live now works for me, doesn't work for him job wise. He'd have to make do with anything, which would make him feel even more worthless than he does now (he is at rock bottom)
• if we go to Edinburgh, it works perfectly for him, but not for me.
• we don't want to move back to Birmingham, we've done that. We don't want to go back to a city where we have no family connections, we'd just be living there for work. Life is too short.

There are no answers. Just wanted to vent, and I guess any generic thoughts on the situation...

Read the OP! He wasn't dismissed, a new job was created for him
No consultation, no procedure. That sounds like unfair dismissal.

The Op says her mother is a hard task master and her husband works from a list. They weren't compatible. This isn't as much of a big deal as some are making out - sometimes jobs don't work out.

He just needs to come up with a plan for his future. That might mean getting in some help from a careers service. It shouldn't involve the Op altering her successful career but accommodations can be made on both sides (he can definitely travel for an hour for example).

And the Op and her mother need a bit more space in their relationship- again easily sorted through childcare and no more involvement in family arguments.

This is all stuff that can be fixed without any more drama.

@AnonymousMamaof2 I am not surprised your husband is at rock bottom, he's been put in an untenable situation by you and your family.

You know your mother and how she runs her business, you know your husband and how he works and, if your totally honest with yourself, you knew that he would be on a hiding to nothing working in the family business. You say your parents are paranoid about you and your siblings divorcing and your inheritance being split with a departing partner and you blithely thought your mother would hand over the reins of her business to a mere son in law who could divorce you? Pull the other one. You set him up to fail.

Your mother has undermined your husband and spoken badly of him to anyone who will listen, no doubt including employees of the business, you have fuelled this by telling her about your disagreement with your dh, where was your loyalty to him then? How do you expect your husband to work in the area you are in, his reputation is in tatters? You know what your mother and her associates will say and think of him if he takes a lesser job or runs a little Air B&B, how much humiliation do you want him to endure?

You, your dh and your children need to remove yourself from this toxic environment, move further away, there must be an area that would work for you both, you may have to compromise to achieve that as indeed you should.

Agree that your husband would benefit from Career Coaching, and you need to both sit down and explore all options for him, what does he want to do, where would he like to see himself in say 10 years time? Even if your husband decides he wants to do something less high powered, start his own business, be a stay at home dad, there is no way he can do that and hold his head high in the area you are at the moment, his self respect has been absolutely battered, a move away is essential to your dh and your marriage.

There is a solution to this, you just need to look, but the last thing you should do is stay where you are, your dh's mental health, your marriage and your relationship with your parents will suffer irrevocably if you do.

It's hard to say who's to blame for this situation OP. Your mother sounds really difficult, and the inheritance thing is just a further way of controlling you all. I wouldn't base your decision on where your mother is tbh and if I were you, I'd move away from her.

Your H sounds a bit crap too, losing jobs. It's unfortunate but it's all down to you to provide for the family. I think you need to stop pandering to your H - his pride etc. He's a grown up, he needs a job, he needs to provide for his family. I think you should either stay where you are (and cut contact with your parents) and he should find a proper job, or move closer to your work and/or Birmingham.

Giving him an Airbnb as a vanity project is just a silly idea. he needs to sort himself out. He sounds really crap I think, and quite unattractive.

@Notonthestairs

The Op says her mother is a hard task master and her husband works from a list. They weren't compatible. This isn't as much of a big deal as some are making out - sometimes jobs don't work out.

He just needs to come up with a plan for his future. That might mean getting in some help from a careers service. It shouldn't involve the Op altering her successful career but accommodations can be made on both sides (he can definitely travel for an hour for example).

And the Op and her mother need a bit more space in their relationship- again easily sorted through childcare and no more involvement in family arguments.

This is all stuff that can be fixed without any more drama.

I'd agree with this, it's the family stuff that's made it toxic and tbh it sounds like working for the family business was setting you all up to fail. He doesn't sound suited to the role, doesn't seem to be able to anticipate need and be proactive. Your mum seems to have handled it badly and let stuff drift.

I really don't think the solution is for you to give up a secure and stable job at this point. You're going to need to work out childcare for those two days or he needs to find a job where he can have flexible working/WFH. I know the job market is awful at the moment but when things pick up, lots of places will be more focused on WFH at least part of the week.

Another one thinking that you need to cut the strings with your parents. I’m a believer in consequences and to be frank it sounds as though your parents have treated your DH poorly and face absolutely no consequences. They still get what they want most - very regular access to your DC. It wouldn’t be sensible to jeopardise your income by moving somewhere where you can’t easily work but there are many other places in this country! Stop thinking you need your parents for childcare. I have managed perfectly well with nurseries and Afterschool clubs. It’s great if your parents can help and don’t cause any tension but yours sound as though they certainly have caused problems.
Can you be certain that if your children spend a lot of time with them they won’t overhear negative comments about their Dad? I would be concerned about that if your DM comments to friends about him.

@senua

I want to know more about the employment side of life: Has she, effectively, unfairly dismissed your DH? Was there any sort of appraisal / disciplinary strategy before she sacked him? What is the arrangement with regard to references? This is important, otherwise he has a four year gap to explain.

He hasn’t been sacked. He’s been offered a role created specifically for him and he’s flounced because he doesn’t like it.

For the parents to keep him in a role that doesn't suit him for 4 years dangling a carrot and then go about restructuring there way they have says an awful lot.

Surely they knew it wasn't working much more quickly. Where were the conversations after 18 months or so - "What are you strengths, how could they work for the business. What roles could compliment my strength?" If he was a main player in the future of the business they would have handled it including him but they have never seen as that because the parents will never retire!

He hasn’t been sacked. He’s been offered a role created specifically for him and he’s flounced because he doesn’t like it.
Or he's been stymied by MIL on one job and has no faith that the other one will prove to be any better.

We need OP back to give more info.

I just can't believe people are saying "you need to move"!
I mean, yes, you could move out of your parents sphere a bit, but ultimately the DH is unemployed and doesn't seem very confident of his chances of being gainfully employed in the near future! No WAY would I risk my career and livelihood, and my children's future on the whim of a man who doesn't exactly sound like he has the most can-do attitude.
If his health is too bad to work , maybe he can SAH and look after the children? Could you afford that OP? Therefore no need for GPs to do it. Win-win.

@Plumplumbadum

I don't think your mum had any intentions of letting your DH take over the business. I think she said what needed to be said to get her own way with the children. The poor bugger has really been sold down the river here, but your mum.....well everything is going her way isn't it? I'd be very very angry if I were him. He's spent four years on a hiding to nothing and in the meantime has lost the possibility of getting back into doing what he was originally doing. I'm surprised you're not more angry with your parents tbh. This sounds like one way or the other, it's going to cost you your marriage. One of you will have to compromise for the other and it doesn't sound like you want to or are able to. So where does that leave your poor DH?

This.

He was hoodwinked.

He's had four miserable years. It's time you moved to accommodate his career. Your parents can bestir themselves to visit if they wish.

I’m a believer in consequences and to be frank it sounds as though your parents have treated your DH poorly and face absolutely no consequences

Why? They gave him a job, he was even destined to take over, by the ops own admission after four years he still sees himself as training, works to a list of tasks, doesn’t understand what else is required, so leaves it undone, and shows little to no interest in the staff. They have been working evenings and weekends to pick up the slack.

They’ve put up with it for four years. How much longer should they have put up with it?

No consultation, no procedure. That sounds like unfair dismissal

Are you having a laugh? He's been treated more than fairly. He wasn't suitable and they bent over backwards to accommodate him. If he worked elsewhere he'd be out on his ear within months.

To be unfairly dismissed, you need to be dismissed. He flounced.

Your mother sounds extremely toxic.

Your DH must feel terrible after being kicked out of his job after 4 years. I guess he didn't receive yearly appraisals, so he probably thought he was doing OK?
Will they be paying him redundancy ?
Will they be giving him a glowing reference for his job applications under " restructure of company due to covid" ?

If you move further away for new employment, your DH may understandably say that he doesn't want to visit or spend time with your parents after the way they treated him !

What a mess

It sounds like it would be better to move away & start again

@senua

He hasn’t been sacked. He’s been offered a role created specifically for him and he’s flounced because he doesn’t like it. Or he's been stymied by MIL on one job and has no faith that the other one will prove to be any better.

We need OP back to give more info.

I think we need Mil to give more information. I imagine her take would be very illuminating.

To be unfairly dismissed, you need to be dismissed. He flounced.
He was removed from his job and given something else with no warning, no due process. That's constructive dismissal.

I definitely don't think your parents sound terrible and your husband some hard done by saint. By your own admission your parents gave him a job and despite 4 years in it, he can't manage it. 4 years?? And if you're nowhere near the business and recognise he hasn't been fully up to scratch in reality he must be a disaster. Instead of giving him the heave ho, they've put up with it for years and then eventually created a bespoke role for him whilst raising your kids for you almost half of the time. And this is on top of you landing round to their house and basically saying I'm here in secret because DH doesn't really like you and doesn't want you seeing the kids unless we're benefitting! He can't manage a standard commute, he can't manage a desk job, he can't look after his kids 2 evenings a week when you're not there- he can't do anything unless it's put on a list in front of him by the sounds of it! I think you also need to recognise you're behaviour here too in that your visit to their house was essentially shit stirring. How on earth they can bear him following that and everything else is beyond me. I've read the full thread and am honestly astounded by the perspective of the majority of posters about this.

@Bluntness100

I’m a believer in consequences and to be frank it sounds as though your parents have treated your DH poorly and face absolutely no consequences

Why? They gave him a job, he was even destined to take over, by the ops own admission after four years he still sees himself as training, works to a list of tasks, doesn’t understand what else is required, so leaves it undone, and shows little to no interest in the staff. They have been working evenings and weekends to pick up the slack.

They’ve put up with it for four years. How much longer should they have put up with it?

This from the OP gives the lie to your assertion that he was destined to take over Bluntness100:

Agree that she had no intention of handing over the biz.

My Mum is so paranoid that everything they've worked for will just evaporate if handed over. They're also mega paranoid about divorce and a spouse being entitled to taking half.

There was never any intention on behalf of OP's mother to let OP's dh take over the business, it was an extra carrot dangled when the OP and her dh were talking about relocating so they would have no second thoughts about moving there and would give the mother the access to her grandchildren which, I suspect, is what she really wanted.

I have some empathy for the OP’s mother. She’s great at what she does, likely does it intuitively and is also very attached to her staff.

Training someone else to do things the way you do them when you do them without even thinking about it is impossible.

I can be similar. I know my own job, and don’t have to write things down in order to manage it. It’s great if you run a one (wo)man show and don’t care about longevity. In reality it’s a huge weakness because nothing you build this way is sustainable. And it makes other people heavily reliant upon you.

Her business is not likely to exist long after she retires or dies. In fact, it will be chaos because she has made herself the center of it and her ego is too grandiose to recognize that the failure her is not that of her SIL but her own. She has iron grasp on the business. A commitment to finding anyone but herself incompetent.

If I were her daughter I would lay that out for her. She wants to leave the business as a legacy to her grandchildren? It will never be sustainable if she cannot train another intelligent, competent human being to run it. The cult of personality she’s built seems nice, but it’s not really transferable. I worked in a business like this where the owner died unexpectedly. It was complete chaos after his death, and gone within 2 years.

Is there anything DH is interested in studying? He could do a degree and take on some of the childcare. Could he start a freelance consultancy, or small business? Surely he has picked up some useful knowledge in the 4 years?

IMO it feels very extreme to move house because of this. Moving is expensive, and could seal in the resentment. Would they always view him as the man who took their grandkids away?

As a start, just stepping back, dialling down the contact might allow tensions to cool. Your DH likes lists, so a spreadsheet with pros and cons of all the scenarios is a good start.

@senua

Read the OP! He wasn't dismissed, a new job was created for him No consultation, no procedure. That sounds like unfair dismissal.

Legal requirement to consult is for redundancies over 20 people. There was no threat of redundancy and any claim would hinge on whether the role would be considered to be of equivalent status or not if it flew at all.

Dragging the family business into an expensive employment legal case would probably not work wonders for the relationships either.

@senua

To be unfairly dismissed, you need to be dismissed. He flounced. He was removed from his job and given something else with no warning, no due process. That's constructive dismissal.

It's a highly debatable point that would hinge on a comparison between the roles. Your employer does not have to consult with you to ask you to change your duties if it doesn't constitute a change in your employment contract or there is no threat of redundancy to 20 roles or more. Of course it is good practice to do so when making changes in a business, but that is not a point that a tribunal would consider.

Another one who thinks DH sounds a bit crap. Whatever you do, don't give up your job OP.

Legal requirement to consult is for redundancies over 20 people. There was no threat of redundancy and any claim would hinge on whether the role would be considered to be of equivalent status or not if it flew at all.
Any claim hinges on whether proper process was followed. As an employer of 70 people she should know this.

hannayeah has it spot on.