Help me stay in my marriage.

[Littlesthobo84]

Just that really.
Late 30s, husband late 40s, it’s ok and plods along. We don’t row. He says he is perfectly happy. We don’t have sex. He won’t use condoms or get a vasectomy - he wants to risk timing. I won’t risk timing because I’ve had two high risk really difficult pregnancies already and although given my age it’s probably not likely my cycles are still regular and normal so it’s possible.
He says either I take the pill or we risk timing and I’ve taken the pill before and don’t want to be on it forevermore. I have migraines with aura and cannot take oestrogen based hormone medication. I took the mini pill for a long time before the children.
I don’t think I even want to have sex with him anyway and presumably it’s mutual because he’s not fussed about the vasectomy that he’s been mentioning for the past six years but not done anything about. We are nearly six years since we last had sex now. God, that’s even worse when written down.
I’m depressed about it, I feel checked out, but I don’t hate him. I care about him. I love my children. They are happy. My life is very separate to DH and always has been but my children are happy.
I just need to wait it out another 12/13 years until dd is 18. Remind me how the grass isn’t greener.

I know you feel numb and just want to put up with the status quo....but just don't!!!

You are modelling a horrible relationship for your kids where their father is uninterested and you to toe around him and do all the work. I can't believe he calls spending time with his OWN children as babysitting

You think staying willl make them happy....it my do short term but long term it will be so damaging. After I divorced my DD told me years later that she would lie awake in bed worrying and got upset the way her father treated me. He was never violent or anything but just thought he was the king of the house and wanted his way most of the time. He was also stressed with work, not a good listener and dismissive of DD when he couldn't be bothered and tried to belittle my career. Basically selfish and insensitive.

Post divorce we are all much happier. He was difficult initially but after a year it all calmed down. He met someone else to massage his ego. I enjoyed being single for a few years. And I can't begin to tell you the difference in the atmosphere at home without that cloud of stress and depression.

You need to be brave for the kids but also for YOU. You can't live like this for another 30 or 40 years. You all deserve better.

I too think he may well have or be looking for sex on the side tbh.

I’ve wondered over the years if he has, but I don’t think so. He’s spent A LOT of time away on business so could have but my gut feeling is that he hasn’t. I don’t know why. I wouldn’t mind if he had so it’s not that I’m in denial, I just don’t think he’s that bothered. Also I think he’d have to use a condom because of the STI risk, which he wouldn’t take and he’s so set against condoms.

Ds asked me the other day, out of the blue, if we’d be able to afford to live if DH left us. I said yes. He then said, it’s a stupid question because he wouldn’t leave us.
I don’t think DH would leave us either but it did seem a strange thing to ask, I don’t think I’d have asked it of either of my parents.

You wouldn't mind if he was sleeping with someone else and your child has asked that question about if he left, and you want to stay in your marriage??? Yikes, OP.

Honestly that seems like your DS was daydreaming hoping he would!!!

@Littlesthobo84

I suppose that weighing it up I feel it would hurt them more to leave because it would be SO unpleasant and SO difficult - I cannot see us co parenting on any basis. It would just be awful. One of dh’s friends split from their wives recently and he said he’d have made it as difficult as possible for her if it were him. She has stayed in the family home with their dc and DH said there’s no way he’d have that. I said it was better for their dc and he said - who cares, she wouldn’t be getting any help from me, I’d be making it as difficult as I could.

Ds asked me the other day, out of the blue, if we’d be able to afford to live if DH left us.

I think DS is telling you everything you need to know there. Even if he said dad would never leave us afterwards.
In think he's asking you for help and telling you he knows this isn't a happy home. If you split then at least they could live in happy, healthy home at least 50% of the time (and likely more than that as while many good dads do 50:50, ones who would get nasty never seem to follow through on it when faced with the reality of actually parenting) instead of one that's not happy or healthy, 100% of the time.

Is it a strange thing for ds to say?
It was a bit out of the blue. ‘Now you’ve got a better job would we be able to afford to live if dad left us?’
That’s what he said.

@Littlesthobo84

Is it a strange thing for ds to say? It was a bit out of the blue. ‘Now you’ve got a better job would we be able to afford to live if dad left us?’ That’s what he said.

It's pretty heartbreaking, yes OP. I can't imagine a child who felt secure and happy in the family home would ask that. By saying "does this mean we could live in a house without dad?" he is surely implying that it's something he thinks could be good? Otherwise why would a child equate one parent having more money than usual with the freedom to leave? He said dad would never leave "us" which I think may mean it's now a situation where DS sees you, him and his sibling as "us" and dad as a separate entity to that unit, who is a boss in charge.

@Littlesthobo84

I suppose that weighing it up I feel it would hurt them more to leave because it would be SO unpleasant and SO difficult - I cannot see us co parenting on any basis. It would just be awful. One of dh’s friends split from their wives recently and he said he’d have made it as difficult as possible for her if it were him. She has stayed in the family home with their dc and DH said there’s no way he’d have that. I said it was better for their dc and he said - who cares, she wouldn’t be getting any help from me, I’d be making it as difficult as I could.

What a nasty man he is.

The phrasing you've shared just now means he at least feels his dad isn't happy in your home and your son doesn't feel he has a safe and secure relationship with you both. It's really sad but I'm glad he is close enough to you to talk to you. Listen to what he's really telling you, even though it's painful.

I think what youvegottenminuteslynn said is spot on
He said dad would never leave "us" which I think may mean it's now a situation where DS sees you, him and his sibling as "us" and dad as a separate entity to that unit, who is a boss in charge.

You're modelling this "amicable" (although it doesn't really sound it) relationship for your kids. What if they both follow your lead and end up in a similar position with their own families? Would you be saying that they should stay until their kids have left?

I think he’d have to use a condom because of the STI risk, which he wouldn’t take and he’s so set against condoms.
What STI risk? He's not sleeping with you, and is insisting that he will only sleep with you if you use a condom.

My exh stopped sleeping with me after a few months of being with his OW, presumably as a) he was getting enough elsewhere, b) he did actually feel uncomfortable about sleeping with two women at once and c) he couldn't come up with a reason why we might suddenly need to use a condom.

And just wanted to say I'm sorry if my messages are upsetting or sound accusatory, I just so wish I hadn't grown up in an eggshell household and thought it was normal for parents to be civil but have simmering tension / no genuine affection for each other / no laughing their socks off together. I too thought amicable was the best it could get and was the norm. I really hope you can find a way to reach happiness along with your children too. Your son has given you a real signal with his words that this is affecting him a lot more than it may seem on the surface

Agh sorry, again, no condom - I mean, he's coming up with reasons why you can't have sex. The talk about how he's going to have sex with you, when he could easily have sex with you, makes it sound like he doesn't want to have sex with you but is trying to cover it up.

It could be quite "useful" if he is having an affair - might be a reason for you to leave that he would accept?

Just to say, my mum left 'the love of her life' / my dad because she didn't want to model a bad relationship to me (not abusive, just sub-optimal) - but she essentially just martyred herself, told me about it, and I think she's regretted it ever since!

I hope that comment of your son's opens your eyes, OP.

None of this is ok.

You don't 'rub along ok'. You are in a nasty little relationship where your DH knows he's got the whip hand because he's perfectly prepared to shout, be 'vindictive' and make life difficult if you don't toe the line, and he knows you'll shut up and put up for the children.

They see it too.

Please don't fall into the trap of 'oh but they love him...' - children are PROGRAMMED to love and (try to, even in the face of disappointment after disappointment) rely on their carers. They will also aim to please. You know, walking on eggshells not to make it so that nasty Daddy comes out... That kind of training starts early.

You don't 'rub along' at all.

Live your own life now separate from him. You may meet someone else, maybe not. Have hobbies, meet and make new friends. Start making financial arrangements separate from him, separate bank accounts, career etc ready to leave when you finally have had enough

Oh and his comments about sex are truly, truly disgusting. The kind of stuff a nasty bullying misogynist says. All vaguely dominating, crude, designed to objectify you. It speaks volumes about him as a person and it is no surprise at all how unhappy you are and how you can start to see how unhappy your children will be within this set up.

One solid piece of advice - I really do hope you separate, and a good tactic with a nasty fucker like this is to box clever over childcare. Yes, you are right, he would absolutely want to make your life as difficult as possible (you say this yourself, that this man you describe as an 'ok' guy would absolutely set out to make your life hell - tells you everything eh?). So yes, it would be 50-50, I want custody, messing you around with contact etc. Trying to hurt you and hurting them to get to you. All classic.

So - your 'position' is this:

'Well yes I hope you WOULD want 50-50! I've done all the work so far, I have no intention of letting you get away with just seeing them on a Saturday and leaving the parenting to me!'

'I'll be tired too. I'll need a break. It's your duty to do your bit with them, and that includes overnights.'

'We both deserve equal downtime and equal free time - I never had free time in this marriage because I always had the kids, that will change!'

and the KILLER -

'We will both want to move on and meet new people, we both need free evenings and weekend nights to be able to do that.'

A friend played this to blinding effect when her nasty shit of an ex decided he wanted to 'go for custody' of the kids he had barely engaged with since birth. She felt the same as you - they were her life. But she was clever. She knew full well he didn't want the time with them - couldn't imagine anything worse - he just wanted to fuck her over. So she started coming out with the kind of stuff above. Oh looooordy I've never seen such a rapid 180. Suddenly he was all about not 'being her babysitter on the weekend so that she can fuck other men' and not 'spending his time after work doing bloody homework with HER kids'.

Barely sees them now, she hardly hears a peep except the odd Saturday, he struts around thinking he 'won' - and she's absolutely delighted about it

That’s clever YoniAndGuy he definitely wouldn’t want me to meet anyone else.
I suppose I just stay until I cannot stay any longer. I’m not certain at the moment so the best thing is still to stay, it may be that I’m never certain. The dc are settled - despite what ds said. He does say some random things sometimes. He’s probably more aware than dd is that things aren’t brilliant though, but I don’t think he’d want us to split.

The comments about sex are off putting, however I think probably lots of couples speak privately to each other in that sort of way? I have no way of knowing. If I reciprocated it then it would be fine? But I won’t because I won’t sleep with him without a condom and he knows that so he can say those sorts of things without having to actually do anything. He jokingly said if he’d had the vasectomy before lockdown I’d have been his little sex slave. I don’t think he believes it though, it’s easy to say. I don’t think he’d have wanted that even if he’d had the vasectomy. I don’t know, it’s weird.

@Littlesthobo84

That’s clever YoniAndGuy he definitely wouldn’t want me to meet anyone else. I suppose I just stay until I cannot stay any longer. I’m not certain at the moment so the best thing is still to stay, it may be that I’m never certain. The dc are settled - despite what ds said. He does say some random things sometimes. He’s probably more aware than dd is that things aren’t brilliant though, but I don’t think he’d want us to split.

The comments about sex are off putting, however I think probably lots of couples speak privately to each other in that sort of way? I have no way of knowing. If I reciprocated it then it would be fine? But I won’t because I won’t sleep with him without a condom and he knows that so he can say those sorts of things without having to actually do anything. He jokingly said if he’d had the vasectomy before lockdown I’d have been his little sex slave. I don’t think he believes it though, it’s easy to say. I don’t think he’d have wanted that even if he’d had the vasectomy. I don’t know, it’s weird.

No other men don't talk about sex like that. He sounds disgusting.

I think maybe some counselling and the freedom programme might be some first steps because I think it is easier to see how bad it is from the outside but not so much from the inside.

I think you are his slave though a little doing everything, listening to what he says and I think your DS is at 12 finding it difficult to mesh together what he is told and hearing about men and women and what he sees at home. This is such an important growing time in his life it maybe what he sees at home wins out with his attitude towards staying.

The children will be better if you leave.

He is disgusting.

You are absolutely LYING to yourself if you think your son's remarks are random.

They are not random.

It clearly is the easier of two options for YOU to stay with this man who is nasty and and has zero interest in his children.

You are choosing to LIE to yourself OP.

One thing I can guarantee you is that as your children mature they will KNOW that you did what was easier for YOU.

They will judge you for it.

Your son's NOT so random questions are a clear indication of what he is thinking.

Do not expect them to accept that you did it for them when you clearly aren't.

Children are very clever.
They absorb so much in a home without noticing.
They carry a really simplicity and clarity with them as they then mature.

You can read it constantly on MN of poster's realising exactly the consequences and reality of their childhood and how it has affected them, their choices, their relationships.

Just some food for thought, not saying this would happen to you, but if it would help anyone else - my SIL has told me to share this story if I ever heard of people in a similar situation to her.

My SIL was in a similar situation to you when her children were 8 and 10. Not happy at all, but decided to stay until the children left school. She managed to stick it out until the first one left school, but it went nuclear when the second one was taking his A-levels. Her 'D'H had started an affair (including bringing OW to the house) and hit SIL during an argument. They ended up separating within the home, keeping it a secret from the children, she met someone else and announced the divorce in the April then moved in with the other man in May, the younger DS blamed her completely and spent five years going completely off the rails. Is doing a bit better now he's seeing a pyschiatrist, but it's still had a massive effect on his life.

The things is she was convinced she could stick it out, but just couldn't, not for that long and I'm pretty sure her 'D'H decided he wanted to be rid of her. So she didn't have a choice in the end and it all blew up at the worst possible time for the kids. She's been off work for the last seven months following a nervous breakdown.

As your son brought it up, you could always try asking now if there was any special reason why he asked that - probe a little and you might find out more about what the children have noticed.