March 2021 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[Sicario]

It's now March 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4030633-September-2020-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=40

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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November 2011
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@scintilla87 you poor thing. Your father sounds awful. It’s really hard to deal with that. Hard as it may be, back away. You’ve got a brill partner and kids concentrate on them and YOU. You can’t parent your dad as well. The swearing at you is abuse. If that was a partner, you’d leave. Be strong and look after you. This is a great place to talk things over. Lots of women here have parents who have addiction issues.

@Coconut80
Thank you so much. I second what people say - email only. You can control things better and not get dragged into horrible conversations.

@Ginmelons burning her bedding and putting on the 10 million thread new sheets on our bed on Tuesday

Yep, it was the usual lunch time of HELL.

“I’ll have soup I suppose”

The day drags on. We’re both mega busy. She sits on the sofa glowering.

(She’s up now creeping around the landing seeing if she can hear my partner moving around downstairs. I know he’s awake reading a book - lol. If she hears him it will be the plaintive “Mr Monkey I need a cup of teeeeeeeeeeeeeeeea”. She doesn’t come in my room to ask me for stuff. It’s all about having MM as a controlled servant and supplier of Narc Supply Tokens)

Then it’s approaching dinner time. I make homemade pizzas from the mountains of leftover Turkish bread from Friday’s completely misery of dinner with a takeaway. They look pretty good and it was nice making them.. I show MM.

“Wow, mum, look what Monkey’s made”
“Which one’s mine?”
“This one, cheese and tomato”
“Humph, not much cheese and tomato on it”

No “thank you for cooking” or anything. BTW plenty of cheese and tomato on it. But you knew that.

This tiny thing is the deepest cut TBH. The last few days she’s really ramped the shit up.

I’m shaking with anger at this point. I walk to the corner shop to get wine which I’m planning to inject when I’m putting the pizzas in the oven. Corner shop is 10 minute walk. Buy contents of wine shelves, buy tin of G&T and Quavers. Sit on bench and calm down.

Go back to house.

“Where’s the food I’m starving?”

Food gets prepped.
“Is there no garlic bread with this?”
“Why are your pizzas different”
“You don’t like olives or chillis”
“Humph, so I just get the plain one. Typical”

(Honestly, when I see this in black and white, I can’t believe anyone would be this HORRIBLE. If she wasn’t so frail, she’d be lashing out physically. She’s a ball of rage)

Reacting to this bollocks just leads to a massive meltdown so we tend to ignore it. She wants a reaction, she ENJOYS the impact of the screaming.

She glowers throughout the meal. There’s aggression, of course. “Well, I know that”. MM has always spoken slowly - I think he does this to counteract the “speech” patterns of his childhood which was constant screaming. She’s constantly saying throughout the meal “well, get on with it”.

Then she’s literally raining on my parade by saying the weather today (Sunday) when I see my mum in a park will be horrendous. She obviously wants me to have a shit time.

“I’ll be getting out my waterproof trousers”

Her: “not much of a day sitting on a bench in the rain if you ask me”

No, NO ONE asked you for your vile opinions.

A nastier person you could not meet. I had a big talk with MM after the Hag had gone to bed. We are agreed that if she has another fall or there is an illness or there’s more work on a flat that she does not come here. I’m not going through this again. There must be a better way. TBH I’m not having her back here after Tuesday for a long time. No Sunday lunches. MM can deal with it. She’s utterly toxic.

My mum will be coming later. She’s not in our bubble (gutting). Mummy Monkey will have got the Hag a birthday present (Hag’s celebration of hatching from her egg was last week) which will be received with typical grace. But TWO MORE SLEEPS.

To everyone today struggling with Mother’s Day I’m thinking of you with love. Xxxxxx

@appletart99 thank you! I love writing. Humour tends to get me through most things. Her behaviour is horrendous but I do have a very dark sense of humour. My best mate is miles away in London and she loved the Nazi salute pic (Hag with arm raised turning up the sound of Heartbeat to 560 decibels) I sent her last night. Best mate had a very very hard awful childhood - she’s the kindest person ever - and we have designed a Mastermind quiz on Heartbeat together. I think a girls holiday touring the thermal spas of Europe and falling over pissed is needed. Thank you for saying the Hag has met her match. She has. I’m supposed to be beaten down by this shit and I’m not (despite pretty hardcore mental illness)

I hope the day goes OK for you. Big hug. That’s a very very good approach to take.

We are approaching card opening time here at Monkey Mansion where she will sit basking in a false sense of what a wonderful mother she was and is. Lol. There will be similar pictures all over the UK.

And other toxic mothers shocked to their very rotten cores that there are no flowers and cards.

And for all the decent women on this forum who have been lucky enough to have kids hold them close and celebrate the fact that despite all the damage you’re self aware and STRONG enough not to repeat the patterns of abuse. Onwards!

@Sicario - Yes I suppose I do feel some responsibility towards him. He had a tough childhood and I think to some some extent that he’s a product of his environment. Usually I do very much believe that it’s up to the individual to try and help themselves, to break themselves out of any destructive behaviour, I know if I was talking to a friend that’s what I would say.

@AttilaTheMeerkat - Thank you for that dose of reality. You’re quite right, I can’t heal him. But it doesn’t stop me from feeling like I SHOULD do something if that makes sense. It feels a bit cruel to just leave him to it. I probably need to seek a way to alleviate my own sense of responsibility rather than try to repair the relationship!

@appletart99 - My mum is difficult in her own way, although nowhere near this level. He cheated on her several times, they had a volatile relationship and I think she felt very controlled by him. He never lived with us full time when I was growing up, he’s just come and stay for a few days and then go back to his house. I’d stay with him one day a week. When I was about seven we found out that he had another secret family which must’ve been devastating for my mum. She continued a relationship with him though. To answer your question, yes I think she did try and compensate for him.

You’ve hit the nail on the head, he’s actually vastly different to who I thought he was! He was Disney Dad personified.- Lots of extravagant gifts, trips, taught me how to play chess, well read, paid for my education, expensive hobby (I now feel quite queasy at the realty of where his money came from). I honestly believed he was the best man in the world. Behind all that he was actually a volatile criminal who could be lovely and generous and warm, and on the other hand he was a dangerous man. My mum and I fled in the middle of the night after he made a very credible threat to her life.

I really appreciate your insight, thank you! X

Hi Scintilla

re your comment:-
"It feels a bit cruel to just leave him to it. I probably need to seek a way to alleviate my own sense of responsibility rather than try to repair the relationship!"

Leave him to it, its not cruel to do that and you've tried on numerous occasions to reach out to him. He has communicated he does not not want to know and that is not your fault either.

Yes and there is no probably about it. I would certainly read about codependency in relationships as you may be codependent and given your parents behaviours you likely even now feel very responsible for them. You cannot heal their pain and you can only help your own self ultimately. Deal also with your FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) re your dad too through therapy if necessary. Again its not your fault that these people are this disordered of thinking.

to you all. For some this particular day is going to be hard going and my thoughts are with you and the other ladies on here who have already written about their experiences.

I am fortunate in that my own mother does not like Mothers Day and never has done (she is not one for sentimental shite in cards). DHs mother of course loves it (he's already got an e-mail from her thanking him for all the lovely words in said card whilst I am thinking she does not deserve one single bloody thing from him, she to my mind is not fit to clean his shoes).

Scintilla - I totally second Attila in the recommendation to do some reading about FOG. There are lots of resources online, and do consider therapy. The damage done by dysfunctional parents is deeply ingrained. And going no contact is really hard because of the feeling of guilt that come along with it.

I am NC with my siblings (highly toxic sister, plus useless/alco brothers) and my mother (violent throughout my childhood - I was/am the family scapegoat). My DF died years ago.

It's been a tough journey but I don't regret my decision for a second. I feel guilty about it every day, but I know that's not my fault either. It's all part of the programming from my childhood.

This thread is a huge source of support and a safe space for all of us.

Her flowers DH sent arrived damaged (there is a God!). Felt somewhat for DH however, MIL rang him to tell him this after I picked the phone up.

Scintilla it would be cruel I agree to withhold any help at all from your father but that doesn't mean to say that YOU should help him, he needs professional help with his addiction problems, if you try to help him he will only draw you into his dysfunction damaging you in the process & making things even more difficult and tangled for himself.
The better option in my view would be to stand well back and point him in the direction of services which are designed for his problems, of course that's not what he is reaching for ...he is reaching for validation for his dysfunctional and abusive behaviour, this helps no one, you should step away

Infact you do not need to point him in the direction of services either because he neither wants your help or support. You can only help your own self ultimately and your dad is also an adult who can still make choices. He chooses not to engage as is your choice to no longer try or otherwise engage with him.

@AttilaTheMeerkat how excellent about the flowers. Most normal people would say thank you and NOT say they arrived damaged because that’s not your husband’s fault. Did she think you’d ordered them (women often do the emotional Labour of gift choosing)? Getting at you.

Hag has made today miserable. She didn’t want a present so we didn’t get her one. New rule is we take her at her word. Mr Monkey was wrapping my mum’s gift and the Hag was silently seething on the sofa.

I’d got her some mugs for the Hovel - she asked for these and definitely not a gift - because the ones she’s got at the slum are disgustingly tea stained. I was thoughtful and got her hand wipes as she can’t wash her hands - well, not thoughtful, it’s to try and prevent moaning about her hands. They arrive today.

Quite a stash of fuck off home stuff which I leave on prominent display. No thank you.

Mentioned this to MM.
“Oh, she’s paying fir it so that’s her way of saying thank you”
Ffs.
“So, if your brother got something or my mum that you’d sorted out, they would just hand over money and not say thank you?”
Jesus H Christ, he’s got blind spots.

Final meal with her tonight.

Gorgeous SIL has just rung. Hag is being as nice as pie and cheerful. She’s a fucking piece of work. 😹😹😹😹

Conversation with my dad today.
I come across a torn printout which includes one of my tweets and half a paragraph written by my mum about it proving that I was on a train that day and how I could or could not have had a car journey, I'm not sure why or to whom, but the tweet dates from this summer when I wasn't speaking to her. I mention this to my dad and also confirm that I found the clothes my mum had taken from my rail (which he said I was lying about, she hadn't done and would have no reason to do and hadn't done anyway, and that I was exactly like she was because I had mentioned it).
DF: oh, is printing something you've tweeted intrusive now? Why are you talking about it? I don't care.
CdV: [I can't honestly remember what I said but it was something along the lines of that I wasn't talking to her and had asked her to keep away at that point].
DF: well whether you like it or not you had a relationship with her then and you have one now. It's a dysfunctional, codependent relationship. You have to try to improve it. You can't just decide not to have one.
CdV: but that isn't going to change unless she changes as well.
DF: yes, that's what I keep telling her!
Given that he's previously said we just have to accept that she isn't going to change and he more or less shouted what I've written above, I'm having difficulty working out what he means!
Meanwhile my mother is going around saying things like "I told my mother [my DGM] that if she doesn't do what I say with her property, she can't accept any help from me in the future" and "I won't give you a date when you can move, because I will get into trouble!" when she promised I could move there on a given date at the end of January and then got very angry at me earlier this week because I pointed out I still hadn't moved! Sorry, these seem like such tiny, venal things to pick on but I'm also counting down (insofar as you can count down when you have no certain end date). It's also debatable what kind of "trouble" I could get my mother into when she outweighs me by 3-4 stone and has, by lying, emotional blackmail, gaslighting and manipulation, got the whole of the rest of the family agreeing with her and doing what she says. Sigh sigh. Anyway, at least she liked my Mothers' Day present enough to say "thank you, that was lovely", though not as much as my sister's bunch of M&S flowers! Thinking of everyone else struggling today.

Hi Monkey

re your comment:-

"@AttilaTheMeerkat how excellent about the flowers. Most normal people would say thank you and NOT say they arrived damaged because that’s not your husband’s fault. Did she think you’d ordered them (women often do the emotional Labour of gift choosing)? Getting at you".

She rarely if ever phones here (as she is very mean and also she does not want to speak to me) so am on the offensive when she does call. Normally DH calls her once a week; his duty call.

She can certainly do PA behaviour pretty well; she started off by saying to me thank you for the flowers then going straight into they were damaged!. At that point I said that I was sorry to hear that then said I would pass the phone to DH.

That above thought did cross my mind initially but DH made it clear to her that he had ordered them. He also told her that they likely got damaged in transit, a point that she agreed with. I saw some of her flowers via a facetime call and most of them looked fine to me. I adopt the position here of, "not my circus not my monkeys" when it comes to his mother and never reminded him of today being Mothers Day. I would not piss on his mother if she was on fire frankly and she has behaved VERY badly towards other people as well as myself over the years. Eviangate springs to mind, and she also gave us separate Christmas cards for many years after we were married (till I spoke to DH about how hurt I was feeling whereupon we received a joint card). I am basically tolerated because I married her son and in her stole him away from her. Many years ago too she ended up apologising to my mother for taking my DS off her when he was crying at his Christening party; an action my mother took great exception to. Her sister can't abide her either and infact you would get more kindness from strangers. MIL has NO empathy, thinks everyone else should act and behave like she does (and thinks that they do) but she is also not very bright. Like many such types though she can appear to be quite plausible to those in the outside world although some people do have the real measure of her. Dealing with her is really like dealing with a wilful six year old; her emotional development truly stopped at around that age. DH cannot see it all that well because he grew up with this shit and regards it as "normal". Also my own parents, although non narcissistic and therefore behave better, do their own thing and are pretty much disinterested so they are not great role models to DH either. DS is polite but is not all that bothered with MIL or my parents really.

I shall not mourn MILs passing when she dies. Infact I will write her a letter when she dies. Did that with late narcissistic FIL too; it was a most cathartic exercise.

Good luck to you both re The Hag's Last Supper later on today. TBH I would not buy her anything else or want to do anything at all for her going forward; let these carers step in and take a further step back. She will likely piss them off as well and could well not want to let them in. Would Mr Monkey be willing to consider therapy re his disordered of thinking mother?.

Cecile

Re your dad's comment:-
"DF: well whether you like it or not you had a relationship with her then and you have one now. It's a dysfunctional, codependent relationship. You have to try to improve it. You can't just decide not to have one."

He cannot or equally will not deal with his wife either and wants you to do so instead by being the buffer between she and he. He is probably getting it in the neck from his wife. Their relationship is really a destructive dance of codependency and besides which he is getting what he wants out of their relationship. And no, you do not have to try and improve things with your mother and you can decide not to have a relationship. You are also an adult with agency and freewill; its not his decision. I have no sympathy at all for your dad; he has also abjectly failed you as a parent here by failing to protect you from his wife's excesses of behaviours. He is truly a weak bystander of a man.

@AttilaTheMeerkat
God, she sounds absolutely horrendous. Yes, they don’t phone, do they? It’s so they can do the martyr act of “no one rings me” FFS. My mum doesn’t ring but that’s because she is so busy doing loads of voluntary work and being social. We don’t guilt trip each other. She emails. That’s cool. We FaceTime as a family because we’re all over the place.

I remember you describing Eviangate. Wasn’t it a 250 ml bottle not even a litre. What an amazing contribution to Xmas Day. 😹 and no joint card because you took her son away I assume. I also get a separate card and until you described this I hadn’t thought that through. Me and SIL are definitely resented for stealing her boys and disabled brother in law has had every opportunity of a relationship ruined. MM’s dad died when he was eight and BIL was signed up to the navy aged 17. Family legend has it that he sacrificed his career to stay with the family but I’m sure she manipulated him to stay. I had to point this out to MM.

I know EXACTLY what you mean about not pissing them if they were on fire. I can’t wait for her to shuffle off this mortal coil TBH and I won’t feel guilty about that. Considering she’s said she wants to throw herself off the roof of her tower block this demise might happen. 😳 good idea re a letter. This forum is my version of it.

Yep, I’m done with buying stuff. The wipes were a way of her not moaning about not being able to whine about hand washing with her broken arm. My mum laughs ar how strategic I’m being.

So just seen my mum for a walk in the pouring room. We didn’t always have an easy relationship when I was younger but we’ve repaired and she’s fantastic. She cannot believe the hag’s behaviour. My mum is kind of saintly but she did give the Hag a big talking to last year over her behaviour which she observed has got worse this year.

So out she goes on Tuesday. She will be foul but banished. If she gets ill or falls again it’s respite care and not here. Never again MM are agreed on that.

@MonkeyfromManchester "And other toxic mothers shocked to their very rotten cores that there are no flowers and cards.

And for all the decent women on this forum who have been lucky enough to have kids hold them close and celebrate the fact that despite all the damage you’re self aware and STRONG enough not to repeat the patterns of abuse. Onwards! "

Exactly this.

I received a message from my mum via a messaging service that I hadn't realised she wasn't blocked on. Something along the lines of hoping I feel guilty for not sending a card or gift.

Made no contact back and blocked.

Imagine you're counting down the hours until she leaves...

FFS @OliveBlue absolutely awful by your monster. NO sense of responsibility FFS.

Hag was reasonably behaved and has now been sent to bed. Normal moaning. Drama over running out of painkillers and instant judgement as to how shit we are. I kept all painkillers she had last year and gleefully handed them over. She was livid. I’d taken the drama / martyrdom opportunity.

Hope you’re sitting down with cake / wine and having a narc and spite free evening!

Xxx

Thankyou ladies for your kind advice, I sent a one line email and enjoyed the day with my own teens. Does anyone else find it strange that their children love them and want to spend time with them. Strange maybe isn't the right word but since I was a teen I've avoided all physical contact and never had a warm, loving, caring conversation with my parents. I don't know if it is because inherently I feel unlovable or because my relationship with my kids is lively and so far apart from the relationship I had and have with my parents.
There will be fallout for me not phoning no doubt dad will phone and strop me but that is better than my day being ruined by her.
Hope you all managed to get through today, it is over and monkey you can sniff the finish line almost there xxx

Morning all,

Having gone NC after a period of LC last year I'm wondering how to handle this now, father is blocked on my phone and removed on social media. Email is still a route for him + he had a good relationship with my husband so if he chose to ask the difficult question of "how are you? Why NC?" He could.

He's preferred to send regular email updates about his life (odd) that I've not replied to and he sent Xmas gifts to the family that will go to the charity shops as soon as they're open.

However. He's now messaging my stepchildren relatively frequently. They're old enough to understand that I don't want any contact but how do I deal with this one?

Stepson has been told to ignore, this really riled me yesterday when a message was sent asking why he didn't reply to the last message. It was Mother's Day. He's my stepson. I'm livid.

Do I step in and ask him to stop contacting the kids? Or just ignore again?

Dolly

Would your stepson be willing to block your dad?. Your dad here is attempting to use him as both a hoover and flying monkey; many such toxic people use "hoovering" as an attempt to regain some control over their target.

I would also block your dad here from being able to contact you on all channels. Keep on with ignoring him because a response even to tell him to back away is a response. A response is what such disordered of thinking people want; it's the reward. Radio silence from you all needs to be maintained.

Hi Monkey

re this part of your comment to me:-
"I remember you describing Eviangate. Wasn’t it a 250 ml bottle not even a litre. What an amazing contribution to Xmas Day. 😹 and no joint card because you took her son away I assume".

Correct on both counts. That was the last straw; the following year we went on holiday for Christmas and have done so since. We received separate Christmas cards for years as well after we got married (you can guess what mine looked like. Before recycling them I used to show my friends and her sister (all were appalled).

She does not phone here often because a) she expects her son to phone her (and sits by the phone each Sunday in expectation), b) she is tight fisted and is unwilling (note not unable) to pay for any such expenditure and c) she does not want to speak to me.

@AttilaTheMeerkat she is absolutely awful. Hag won't ring anyone apart from us and BIL. About 16 times a day. MM is going to be very tough and limit his call to 6pm.

On work trip to Wales so engagement with her. She was vile to MM this morning. Awful woman. Back home tomorrow and never will cross the doorstep.

@AttilaTheMeerkat and your mother in law is horrendous! Where are these people bred?!?!?

@AttilaTheMeerkat

Dolly

Would your stepson be willing to block your dad?. Your dad here is attempting to use him as both a hoover and flying monkey; many such toxic people use "hoovering" as an attempt to regain some control over their target.

I would also block your dad here from being able to contact you on all channels. Keep on with ignoring him because a response even to tell him to back away is a response. A response is what such disordered of thinking people want; it's the reward. Radio silence from you all needs to be maintained.

You're right @AttilaTheMeerkat thank you. I think my stepson would block him, you know what? I'm just embarrassed to ask him to but I need to get over myself.

My husband is gobsmacked at my fathers view that he just barges his way past any level of human discussion on the rights or wrongs of how someone was upset by him. In this instance he's just trying to keep his claws into my little family so that he can say he's doing his bit. I don't understand the hoovering thing but I do recall long, long fallouts between him and my Aunt over the years and she told me recently "your father will go to his grave before he apologises to anyone"

It has started my dad has been on the phone to my sister saying they haven't heard from me for ages. Clearly email doesn't count. Ffs I'm going to get an annoying phone call soon all so bloody predictable x