March 2021 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[Sicario]

It's now March 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4030633-September-2020-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=40

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
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March 2011
November 2011
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May-August 2019
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November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I first thought of family therapy for a while buy couldn't face the livelihood of it being used to beat me with (and I'm glad I didn't know from what I've learnt on here). Then I tried CBT. There aren't many therapists by where I am and it was that or Jungian therapy. I didn't click with the therapist and almost ended up playing a role rather than being me. I switched to another over an hour away which was ok but they didn't really get my family dynamics so I stopped. By the end of 2019 I was get to g a bit desperate and just as went into lockdown I found an excellent online therapist who really got what i was talking about. They had police experience and experience with Cptsd. I'm now a massive convert to therapy and can't recommend it enough even though I no longer have sessions but have realised it's about finding someone who gets what you're talking about as much as a style. In my case, but obviously may not be an issue for everyone

Just realised I didn't answer your question. It's made me better with relationships in general - with work colleagues, friendships and general boundaries. Less angst all round! Oh, and gave me the strength tostep away from the toxicity of family

Oh thank you @Coconut80 I would love that. I think I need the confidence to write. I've got bipolar (with psychosis when it really flips) and stress is a huge trigger to headlong bad places.

Predictably she has excelled herself this evening so I'm dipping in (and then dipping into 1.5 bottles of Tesco Sauv.) before I come back here tomorrow.

The Q about writing really strikes a chord as there are so many life chances ripped away by narcs. I'm ok about mine as I'm lazy (borderline indolent) but so many people have had their lives stunted. That makes me so so so angry!

Already feeling waves of guilt - NM still blocked so no contact for only days at this point. Haven't thought much about it. Triggered guilt tonight by brief discussion of Mother's Day with OH, I'd already got a small gift for her (and the plainest most basic of cards)... Her birthday is also approaching. More guilt. In many ways this was a bad week to end up attempting to go no contact. What is worse? Guilt, or having contact?

@tales I've had NHS therapy a course of cbt and more recently ACT which is acceptance and commitment therapy. Cbt was very good for tackling my bad core beliefs about myself and the world and also at tackling my catastrophic thinking. The ACT really taught me self compassion which I lacked and I imagine most of us on here do. It really was life changing for me. The acceptance was a revelation too I had Ptsd and spent a lot of time avoiding lots of things. With support I was able to allow the thoughts and memories to happen so they were no longer suppressed. The act was with an NHS psychologist I had to wait 2 years for a had treatment every 2 weeks for 9 months. Clearly you are never cured but having self compassion is amazing. Good luck which therapy were you thinking of xx

@MonkeyfromManchester

I def think you should write I'd read it I think you are hilarious in a good way. Yes so many life chances ruined by narcs by destroying hopes and dreams and wellbeing.

Sorry to hear you have bipolar, psychosis sounds scary. 3 years ago I had a manic episode triggered by duloxetine withdrawal I needed inpatient care then was hideously depressed and suicidal for 18months.
Do you stay well generally. I imagine the hag must be an overwhelming stressor for you and your husband. Vile that she treats you both the way she does

Monkey you can enjoy the wine and start the countdown xx

@Coconut80 that therapy sounds so good and it’s such hard work. I think people don’t always appreciate the work that goes into healing. That sounds like a terrible experience - I’ve so far managed not being an inpatient so I can’t imagine how hard that will have been for you. I stay generally well but stress is a massive trigger.

So, The Hag was vile yesterday and it escalated into the evening.

“I know it’s Friday night, let’s have a takeaway from our favourite Turkish restaurant.”

Hag: “I’ll pay”.
Us: “thank you, that’s lovely” (and attention seeking control but hey let’s pretend you’re normal)

Mr Monkey sits on the sofa and scrolls through the menu with her. She’s argumentative and nasty.

“Just hurry up” “I just want chicken and chips so don’t bother showing me anything else” “oh this is the place where I had that horrible pizza from” “why aren’t there pictures of the chips” “I want hummus”. “We’re getting hummus, it’s just coming in a mezze with lots of other lovely dips” “oh don’t bother then”

I’m thinking to myself this is going to be the absolute opposite of a great Friday night.

And yes, I’m right.

Food arrives. Much fuss of getting The Hag into her seat. Hag is HORRIBLE to MM over him getting her into her seat. I tell her under my breath in the kitchen to stop being so fucking horrible to my much much better half. OK, not under my breath. Guilty as charged. MM explodes at me. I storm upstairs. MM follows in tears. We have huge row.

The Hag does her plaintive “I didn’t mean to upset anyone” act., this is ALWAYS Oscar winning territory. Little wheedling voice “Monkey..will you talk to me...” “I need you both to talk to me” “we all just need to sit down and talk about it”. Sat on the stairs. Pathetic.

MM and I calm down upstairs. Big hugs. Let’s just get through the evening. Go back down, I’m cool.

The open arms “will you please forgive me” wheedling bullshit is rolled out. I feel like I’m living in a Victorian melodrama. I don’t do the sorry/forgiveness game anymore as it’s not genuine, it’s part of some sick psychodrama and it just repeats the same patterns. The routine is very much rolled out for MM’s benefit. It is absolutely horrible. I can’t describe how it makes me feel. I don’t engage.

We go back into the dining room to finish our -“it’s cold, I don’t know why you pay so much money for that when you could just put a meal in the microwave” delicious meal - without hag who glowers on the sofa having had Narc Showtime cut short.

MM and I drink wine, chill out and during the course of the Friday debrief gems about his childhood pop out like him just remembering that she wouldn’t let him have a photo of the lovely dad he lost when he was 8 on his bedside table. I think he’s blocked out so much pain from his childhood out. It’s heartbreaking.

Hi Monkey, I've been following the Hag Saga and I know you're well clued up about her tactics, but just one little thing; the "extinction burst". This is usually referred to when dealing with childish tantrums (!), and you probably know it already, but when a wayward child is steered away from an unacceptable behaviour which they were rather happy with, they will often escalate as they realise that it is being curtailed.
She must be feeling increasingly frustrated , even panicky, that her tried and tested tactics are failing, and what further actions are left in the repertoire? In practical terms, an octogenarian in a plaster cast is a bit short on options.....
Three more sleeps. And she'll be off the premises before Mother's Day.

@twoshedsjackson yes, that’s what it is! Thank you. She’s totally panicked that she’s been seen through and most of the time I can predict what’s going to happen so I can steer the ship. She’s FURIOUS that she’s going home and everything is ramped up. Three more sleeps - today going to her flat to defrost the fridge (and do some voodoo in the living room), Sunday walk with my sane mum and Monday business trip in Wales so The Hag can spend three days with Mr Monkey milking him for Narc Supply Tokens without very little interaction from me.

@twoshedsjackson I’m googling extinction burst right now! X

Sorry for posting again. Three in one day.

Just in from a 45 minute walk and a sit down on a bench with a tin of G&T and a bag of Quavers. Classy. This picnic was after the Hag’s latest.

I’ve prepped homemade pizza for dinner including a cheese and tomato one fir her. Mr Monkey admires them, takes them into the living room to show the Hag
“Which one’s mine”
“The cheese and tomato one”
“Not much cheese and tomato on it” (there’s fucking plenty”

Lunch was fun, too. Mr Monkey going out to defrost her fridge.

To me:
“Are we going to eat together?”
“No, I’m catching up on work and MM is going to your flat”
“What can I have?”
“List of the

I'm sorry @MonkeyfromManchester, you're really going through a horrible time at the moment. If I had been there when you spoke your mind about her treatment of your DP I would have cheered, if it helps!

Thinking of everyone on this thread in the run-up to Mother's Day. I've got something reasonably expensive for my own mother, something I know she will like, and something frivolous for my grandmother which makes me happy to have bought and is something she's been mentioning in a semi-serious way recently, along with my mother telling me she's very miserable at the moment (always followed by a visit where I get sent to speak to my grandfather in the other room and my mum feeds my grandmother lies and filtered information about me and my aunt!).Both my parents are really angry about this for some reason. Both have said "but she's not your mother" and my dad stormed in and told me it was my "duty" to get something for my mother but I shouldn't be sending anything to my grandmother! She (GM) is pretty much the only non-abusive, non-controlling family member I have and I normally get on with her but my mum has turned the lying about me and attempting to turn family members against me up to 11 right now.
We are going to start tidying out their couple of rooms at their other house where I was supposed to go at the end of January, but just being away from this house will be so great. I keep getting fed lines like "but of course you will miss your parents". I know my situation isn't nearly as bad as some but no, I won't. I can live without hearing my bloody name every sentence, with having some privacy and autonomy and not being at risk of my possessions being randomly stolen. Also really looking forward to actually studying!
Sorry to moan a bit.

@MonkeyfromManchester
What a hideous time you are having I can't imagine what other crap she has in her arsenal to ramp it up as hometime comes nearer. What are you going to do to celebrate her going, I'd blitz to remove every trace of her

Good on you staying well I am well too apart from a re ent bad time on steroids. The therapy was hard but it was lovely being listened to so constructively and kindly and I actually looked forward to the sessions as I knew I was progressing. Still totally messed up but greatly improved.

Feeling shit with mothers day tomorrow can I just send an email or do I have to reply to the voicemail from dad. It is in a way easier to just do a duty call and get it over with but why the blooming he'll should I do it put myself in line for more barbed vile provocations that take me ages to get over. Yet the guilt and obligation are always there. Hope everyone else is managing mothers day I am reminding myself it's just a day it will be over soon x

Back tomorrow, you amazing women. Thank you for all the care and support. It means so, so much to me. Xxx

Hello everyone,

I wonder if I might be able to post here about the situation I find myself in with my father, who in recent years has become quite emotionally abusive towards me. I’d like to point out that the toxic behaviour didn’t occur when I was a child, in fact I consider myself to have had a very enjoyable (and privileged) childhood which is a lot to do with him. I suppose that’s part of what I’m finding difficult, the wonderful memories that I have of him from when I was younger are possibly clouding my ability to deal with the situation I’m in at the moment.

I’m not really sure where to start and don’t want to rabbit on about my problems when I see there are others here in a far worse situation, so in summary (happy to go into more detail if needed), my father has over the last three years, and on a few other isolated occasions over the last 10 years, been lashing out at me on a fairly regular basis with the most hateful text or social media messages. They often come through in a flurry late at night when I’m asleep so I wake up to 10 or more nasty, ranting messages. The wording is often jumbled but will usually be about how my mum is horrible or I’m horrible, I can “F” off, never contact him again. Or, they’ll be self pitying in nature, detailing how people have either hurt or pissed him off over the years, to tell my mum that she’s the love of his life (she’s NC with him), he’s sorry for all that he’s done. He even threatened to kill himself once and then refused to answer any of my messages or calls (we live in different countries), this sent me into an absolute panic. It was around the due date of my first child and is a horrible memory to have. I’ve since had my second child. He’s never met either of my children or even my fiancée. In fact his latest message (a few weeks ago) was to say that he wants nothing to do with me or my kids, and that my mum is a C*. At the beginning of the year, when my second child was born I had to ask a family member for his latest phone number so that I could inform him of the birth and sent him some pictures (he changes his phone number frequently and deletes his social media, we often go months without contact then he’ll pop up out of the blue). I sent him an email along with the text message, his response was “F off”.

I’ve taken to just ignoring his horrid messages but of course it’s very painful to receive them, especially from a parent. However I’m also upset for him and am worried about what state he gets himself into when he sends them - There is alcohol and drug use involved.

I believe the nastiness is coming from a place of hurt, I’d like to repair the relationship and help him if I can - we’ll never be super close, but I’d like the messages to stop and want him to be happy in his life, he seems tormented and I feel like I must’ve done something, some slight that I’m not aware of. I’m becoming a target of sorts which isn’t fair.

Gosh, sorry for the lengthy post! I could go into some background to try and give a more balanced view but not sure if that’s the done thing on this thread.

Any advice on how to handle the situation would be gratefully received.

Feeling shit with mothers day tomorrow can I just send an email or do I have to reply to the voicemail from dad. It is in a way easier to just do a duty call and get it over with but why the blooming he'll should I do it put myself in line for more barbed vile provocations that take me ages to get over
Coconut, can you use this as an opportunity to shift him to 'email only'. Reply to the voicemail, but reply by e-mail, maybe title it 'voicemail' and say something like:
Hi Dad, sorry I missed your call and thank you for your voicemail, blah blah blah (addressing the points in the voicemail in a way which is comfortable for you)
Ie treat the voicemail as if it were an e-mail and proceed accordingly, if he complains brush aside what he says and carry on with coms by e-mail only.
CONTROL THE NARRATIVE
KEEP THINGS ON THE TERMS WHICH FAVOUR YOU
that's how they operate, if they can do it to you then you have grounds to do it back to them

@Coconut80 if a phonecall is going to upset you, send an email instead. It’s not worth the stress and upset it will cause you otherwise.

(Am sure someone will come along and put it more eloquently than I have)

@MonkeyfromManchester countdown is on might I suggest burning some sage and a takeaway to celebrate her leaving?

@CeciledeVolanges not moaning, we’re all friends here. Sorry to hear your parents are so horrible about your relationship with your GM. One day at a time - as I keep telling myself.

@scintilla87 - welcome. If you're looking to repair your relationship with your dad, this might not be the right support thread for you. Most of us here find that the only way to survive an abuse parent is to go no contact. Some of us have taken many many years to come to that decision.

I'm sure someone will be along on here soon who has experience of an abusive addict parent and can give you some words of wisdom.

@scintilla87 - welcome. If you're looking to repair your relationship with your dad, this might not be the right support thread for you. Most of us here find that the only way to survive an abuse parent is to go no contact. Some of us have taken many many years to come to that decision.

I'm sure someone will be along on here soon who has experience of an abusive addict parent and can give you some words of wisdom.

Thanks for replying @Sicario - My partner has suggested going NC, it’s a step I’m considering taking but feel like maybe I need to try get to the crux of his problem first. I’d never forgive myself if he died and I hadn’t tried to take some steps to solve things before going NC.

I appreciate this might be totally the wrong thread for me if I’m not yet NC with my father.

@scintilla87 - do you feel like you're somehow responsible for fixing your dad's problems? Or is it more that you're trying to understand where his behaviour is coming from? You can't help someone who won't help themselves.

Scintilla

It’s not your fault your dad is like this and you did not make him that way.

The only person who can help your dad is him and there is nothing you can do to help him re his addictions. You cannot heal his pain nor should you in fact try. You’re his daughter, not a therapist and he does not want your help or support. Again, you can only help your own self here and I would urge you not to venture further down the rabbit hole that you are already in. I would also read about codependency in relationships and see how much of that relates to your own behaviour re him.

The 3cs apply to alcoholism and you would do well to remember
You did not cause this
You cannot control this
You cannot cure this

He has had a lifetime to make a difference when it came to you and he’s squandered that completely choosing drink and drugs instead. And it’s not for your want of trying either, you’ve tried your whole life. Don’t let him ruin the rest of your life. You do not owe him anything let alone a relationship here.

Just wanted to say thanks to all those who replies to my post last week. It felt amazing to be validated and also to feel supported. I hate that you are all able to empathise because you have have similar experiences though.

@Monkey, your ability to write with such humour despite the horrors of the situation you are in has really put a smile on my face. I truly hope you manage to kick the Hag out this week. I fully expect she will try on every type of drama imaginable before she goes but she has met her match with you and she knows you are not taking any more shit.

GOOD LUCK FOR TOMORROW EVERYONE. We may not have the mothers that are depicted by the media, but we won't let them ruin the day with their martyrdom and need for constant attention.

I know mine has been building up to tomorrow for weeks so I am planning on a breezy zoom call with my siblings and then moving on with my day and not dwelling on her (nonexistent but nonetheless very vocal) misery.

@scintilla have you spoken to your Mum about why they split? How old were you when they split? You mention fond memories of childhood - do you think your Mum could have been hugely compensating for your Dad and trying to hide his behaviour?

It is really sad when you think you know a parent and they become different in your eyes. So I totally understand why you feel the way you do. As others have said though, limiting contact is probably the only way to protect yourself. The fact your Dad stopped answering messages when you had concerns for his wellbeing shortly after giving birth is just so typical of a narcissist. It always has to be be about them.

Give yourself some time to come to terms with the fact your Dad may not have been who you thought he was. But make sure your fiancé and children are your priority. If he truly cared about you he wouldn't be trying to create drama when you had his given birth.

I have only recently joined this group but it seems so supportive. I hope you manage to find some comfort here x