March 2021 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[Sicario]

It's now March 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4030633-September-2020-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=40

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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November 2011
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hello everyone

Have lurked for a while and actually worked up the courage to post on the relationships board a while back about my own dysfunctional family. Thought I might as well join in here too (after a name change).

The stately homes thread has helped enormously over the last few years when it dawned on me that something wasn’t quite right with my family dynamic. I have lots of screenshots of advice in my camera roll to refer to when I have a wobble about whether I’ve done the right thing.

My parents aren’t an issue - besides enabling my maternal grandparents - grandfather is almost certainly a narc and enabled by my grandmother, and to a extent, my mother who despite realising that their behaviour isn’t healthy, remains a “dutiful daughter” . This is compounded by the reality of a tiny family - I have a sibling and so does my father, but that’s it - although my DH is very supportive of my decision to go v v low contact after years of bad behaviour (acknowledgement of birthdays and Christmas is my limit).

Parents are supportive of the distance but sadly are not willing to take steps to protect themselves in the same way citing age and lack of other family when distance is suggested as an option after a particularly bad period. They are also very keen to maintain the appearance of happy families and want to “have everyone together” for Christmases etc. Before I reached the end of my tolerance I was happy to be present but be as boring as possible - this will not be possible going forward as I am due with my first baby in a matter of weeks - something I was cajoled and worn down into telling them about. I am currently stressing about what they will do when they hear baby has arrived which is less than ideal

I was just wondering if anyone had any advice for protecting myself post baby when hormones and sleep deprivation will be rife?

@ everyone I think we’re all doing brilliantly here, we’ve worked out the cause of our pain and are/have strategising against it.

With The Hag, I’m really glad me and MM don’t have kids as they would be used against us and be abused. The Hag would, I’m sure, if my nephews lived nearer totally fuck them up and use them as proxy against my amazing sister in law. Hag can’t believe sister in law is not crying down the phone at her predicament. Hag does not understand by being critical of SIL, not ringing her or the boys that she doesn’t get attention. She sends ridiculous amounts of money at Xmas and birthdays to the Boys - what a brilliant nana she is FFS.

SO, after 500 fags and vodka, I come down to a very upset MM because she’s been poisonous. I reiterate that she’s going home, I will stock her fridge after defrosting the motherf**ker. All will be ready for going home and the Carers. I will sort out her microwave so carers can use it “but I’m not going to use it” FFS. Then sulking again because I made her lunch - sulking at the choices (four) and we weren’t eating together. Nor was MM. Eating with her is hideous - no table manners and constant moaning.

I’ve had a lightbulb moment about brother in law (Hag’s normal servant) He’s disabled but perfectly able to cope. She phones him constantly about his pain. I don’t know whether Narcs are prone to Munchausens but it seems like it. He’s a muppet for indulging her. Also, I think by going on about it, she positions herself as his Carer. To family last year, she’d told them that she was his Carer (making us look like shits - we constantly offer but he’s her property) but actually he’s her Carer. When family realised this last year it was lightbulbs all round.

Today I’m like a stuck record reminding her she’s going home and no, it’s not when the cast is coming off (5 weeks!) it’s when the care package is in place.

“Oh, and your hair looks nice”

WITCH.

Thanks for listening, folks. Mwah.

Thanks @curtainsforyou2 I’m sorry to hear this is a similarly situation for you. I know we can only make things better for out DD and can’t change the way they are. It irritates me that it still gets to me, my head knows the logic but my heart still seems to want what we’ll never have. I’m getting better at reminding myself they aren’t now and will never be what we need.

@OliveBlue & @BlackAlys I also relate to the feeling that things will only change for me when certain people are no longer in the picture. I dread M reaching old age, as I’m the “only one left” LC is fine just now and manageable while she’s independent, I worry about that changing.

@Ginmelons it can be difficult, I have to say the one positive of the current restrictions has been additional excuses not to be around some. You may wish to implement these to keep a distance on your terms when little on arrives. Only meeting outdoors when you are up to it can help to keep things short and sweet.

Sorry not caught up with thread migraining today and yest so can't bear screens.
@ulteregome good on you being so wise so young to get shot of ghastly parent

@kevin fully agree therapy is wonderful if even for validation that it's not you and that my dm was vile and disordered and also for me the deep fear that I was like her being told that unequivocally I was nothing like her was fab

@PolloDePrimavera
Both parents live to commentate on people's fatness my father who lifelong overweight loves to call women fat birds, he has three daughters. So ugly and shallow

@Notmenottoday they don’t get better with age, far from it. There’s more nastiness (positioned as old age), more isolating themselves from friends and viewing you as a servant. You are expected to be on beck and call. There’s no genuine gratitude from there. Everything is on their terms. Sooooo much manipulation. Run for the hills. If the Hag was my mother not mother in law, I would dump her in a home where she would be as nice as pie to the staff. Their ageing is a car crash of toxicity. It’s very painful to see the difference with other elderly people who have embraced ageing with optimism.

@Ginmelons is there anything specifically you are worried about, that you can take targeted action against? For example, if you are worried about repetitive calls in the evening it might be time for some judicious use of aeroplane mode, if she's going to be emailing with "advice" maybe it needs to be in the spam folder, or maybe you can try to set the parameters of the relationship by sending her some bland pictures/information on your own terms and no further? When I first went to University I used to send weekly emails then I got to decide what I told people about, and no more! Didn't last very long but I was only nineteen and on my own, and it was probably the most bearable my relationship with them has been. It can be helpful to think of the worst case scenario in advance and then think of practical measures in advance. Try to skip worrying about whether you are doing the right thing, just think about what you and the baby will need!

@Notmenottoday - we’re abroad so won’t have to deal with visits as such, unless things relax and numbers stay down, then we’d have pressure put on for Christmas (from both sides of the family, not just my side). Grandparents would not travel this far (they’re in their 80s)

@Coconut80 must be something in the water! Narc grandad feels the need to comment on other people’s appearances despite being obese himself. It’s so rude!

@CeciledeVolanges I suppose I’m mainly worried about my parents trying to force me into interacting with them at a time where I might be feeling particularly vulnerable.

I really don’t want my grandparents having anything to do with our baby at all. They have a long history of emotional and verbal abuse, gaslighting and the silent treatment when they don’t get their own way. They have said some particularly nasty things about my sister - one example is at my wedding where they spoke at length to a long standing family friend about how they were “concerned” at her being “past it” and prioritizing her career over babies. She was 29 I feel like if they’re prepared to say such vitriolic things about their own granddaughter, what will they say about a tiny baby that doesn’t meet their expectations?

Had to set my Mum straight a few times about not wanting gifts from them as they’ll only come with strings attached. I remember when the first vaccine was approved my Mum was all excited about things opening back up and going shopping with her Mum for things for the baby. I felt so mean saying “no, actually I don’t want anything from them” as I felt like I was stamping all over her excitement. I’ve also had to have several conversations about pictures of the baby, mainly because I know any digital photos will go straight on my grandparents emails to their friends all over and I’m just not comfortable with that.

Interestingly, they massively escalated trying to get back in contact when they found out I was pregnant - multiple emails, constant text messages. I was very proud of myself for holding my nerve and only messaging on Christmas Day to wish them a Merry Christmas and a nice day etc. I know that they put pressure on my Mum around that time and were moaning that I wasn’t in contact. Before they knew I was pregnant I’d been successfully grey rocking and I just feel like I’ve shone a massive spotlight on this particular pebble

Interestingly, they massively escalated trying to get back in contact when they found out I was pregnant
I see this as standard predatory behaviour, a pregnant woman is almost a 'symbol' for vulnerability, they are drawn towards you, sensing the opportunity to seize control.
Put a metaphorical concrete fortress around you Ginmelons
let them helplessly dash themselves against the fortress walls like a pair of twits while you ignore them!

@Ginmelons I understand, it can be so horrible. Particularly with a young baby, I can imagine the levels of control and abuse about your parenting skills. If you're abroad, though, you have a lot of opportunity just to narrow down channels of communication and to use the reason of needing peace and sleep when you can get it! Is there another family member or friend who could help gatekeep for you?

@Ulteregome predatory is an good way of putting it. I must admit I hadn’t considered it that way until I read your post.

My DH is good, he’s very supportive of me and my decisions. He would happily tell anyone where to go My parents and sibling - unfortunately I don’t feel like I can rely on them to be a buffer between me and my grandparents. They would (based on previous experience and the reaction to me going LC) not want to provoke them/rock the boat. They’re prepared to do anything to keep the peace. I’m just not prepared to engage and sacrifice my peace anymore for the sake of “family”

Hi everyone, sorry to post again but I am feeling so low and guilty today.One of my best friends who has a similar family to me has been diagnosed today, including with PTSD, and I feel totally shit about myself because I've been incredibly self-destructive over the years, caused a huge amount of trouble for loads of other people and I know I've displayed features of the family and parents I was brought up in over time, which makes me as bad as them really. I'm still right in the middle of it as well. Tonight might be another call to Women's Aid although I feel pathetic, there's no violence, my mum has just cooked. But they are paying my psychiatrist who basically says the only problem is that I'm an alcoholic and have wrecked things for my family. Maybe that's fundamentally true. However, after a few days locked in the house, unable to get out but not even tempted by my mum's secret alcohol stash, I'm not even sure that that's true any more!
Sorry, very low and confused this evening. I'm trying to gather myself up to write the first part of my Master's thesis and I'm going to talk about applying for a PhD tomorrow (for complicated reasons, there is an extremely fucked-up dynamic around that in my house and getting an offer to do a PhD would be one in the eye for them and a tremendous boost for me. I applied for my current course entirely on my own, nearly got a scholarship for it and am currently reading for it under the covers at night). Sorry to be confused/crazy today.

Hi Cecile. You have nothing to apologise for here. This is a safe place for you to come and offload, vent or seek advice. You're in a really difficult and challenging place right now and of course it feels confusing. I really do hope you are able to access the support you need to help you back into independent living with your own place.

I also hope that as the lockdown situation lifts, that it will be easier to access that help and support.

Honestly @MonkeyfromManchester the older she gets the more I dread it. I keep myself pretty LC just now and she is independent and not elderly but I really worry when that comes as it will be a battle to keep LC. Though I would definitely need to keep that arms length out and arrange through service what she needs if things got to that stage. I can already see it coming, she’s started up with various “ailments” and claims to have “ocd” but lives by choice in a hovel. So much of your stories ring true! She doesn’t have ocd at all she just has a compulsion to have things her own way, such as keeping food waste on the kitchen worktop in a bag or some waste of time receptacle which inevitably leaks because she doesn’t want to “dirty the food bin” she’s just bizarre.

@CeciledeVolanges as @Sicario says please don’t apologise! As rings true do often on here I am certain that recognising these traits only goes to show you are not like them with your awareness of the situation. Please don’t beat yourself up. I’m sure we all have, from time to time, recognised a behaviour or moment in ourselves we don’t like which reflects something we’ve learned and don’t want to copy. Try not to dwell on it if you can see the positive in the fact that you want to ensure not to be like them or repeat behaviours you don’t like. I echo the comments above and hope you can get the support needed to return to independent living.

@Notmenottoday god, have they been comparing notes?!?! The Hag keeps waste on the kitchen top and there’s a perfectly good bin that’s UNUSED. My advice is to find out just what services there are around your area from charities to local authority as soon as the rot sets in.

In FANTASTIC news, social services have got a care package in place and it starts on TUESDAY. Three care calls a day. Giving her the good news yesterday was marvellous. She was livid and every excuse began.

“I can’t go, my fridge isn’t defrosted”
“I’m popping round tomorrow to defrost it”
“What about my shopping?”
“We can get it”

ETC ETC ETC

She’s a fucking utter nightmare. She really thinks in her twisted self obsessed brain that staying here in our tiny house with her son and DIL who have mega demanding jobs waiting on her hand and foot and them sleeping in DIFFERENT rooms because she’s got their bedroom is a long-term option.

There was strop after strop before THE ANNOUNCEMENT and then it settled to low level spite. At every opportunity I’m reminding her that she’s going home on Tuesday as last year she “forgot”. I noticed that she’d sent Mr Monkey round to pick some stuff up which included her summer handbag!!! MM doesn’t clock these things. I’ve developed superhuman powers of observation.

Lots of martyrdom ridden phone calls to the other son which included her doing lots of projection about his disabilities. She thrives on misery. He plans to move to a flat rather than a house when his MS gets worse which is a plan she didn’t know about until MM mentioned it over dinner last night. “Well, I didn’t know this and I’m his MOTHER”. BIL probably hasn’t mentioned it to her because he’d be invited to live in her flat (poor bastard) or she’d start looking at flats fir them both. I could see the calculation in her eyes. She’s absolutely fucking vile.

I’m lying in my camp bed and I’ve just heard make a “joke” about MM being in the loo for a long time, he’s got IBS which has gone through the roof because of stress. She’s horrible.

Buuuuuuut FOUR more sleeps til HAGLESS.

Yep, same here @MonkeyfromManchester unused bin sits in pristine condition whilst food preparation surfaces are slurried with Christ knows what!

That’s amazing news, 4 sleeps to go!! Well done for handling it all and pushing the care. Your home may become a haven once more, no wonder you are both stressed to the eyeballs! Zero consideration as ever, all about her, shock!

That's brilliant news, Monkey. Well done for getting it all sorted! I wonder if she will attempt to pull a huge stunt on Monday or if you'll have to drag her kicking and screaming to the car.

You've handled this all so brilliantly with your no-nonsense approach.

Monkey

Good on you re the Hag; the witches in Macbeth come into mind when I read about her.

How does Mr Monkey feel about his mother leaving?.

@Notmenottoday it doesn’t bear thinking about. I know! I’m sooooo happy.

@Sicario Tuesday morning is going to be hell but I’m like a stuck record about “when you’re in your flat”. I have sorted everything: new cooker, microwave, kettle cradle so she can make her own frigging tea. We cam sort shopping, bring her laundry here. I don’t care what we have to do she is OUT.

@AttilaTheMeerkat I keep getting flashbacks to GCSE English Lit, too.

Mr Monkey is ecstatic. He gets the shouting. The shouting is AWFUL. I I get the spite. She could start an argument with a wet flannel.

Fantastic example last night was us all having dinner together, then she goes to sit in with our living room with Heartbeat on at 500 decibels, we’re in the dining room having a debrief slash 15 bottles of wine and I can see her seething through the glass doors. Out of nowhere, we weren’t having a conversation with her, she half shouts: “so, you just want to get rid of me then?” There’s only a one word answer to that. Or possibly three with the sentence ending “off”.

I keep suggesting that MM has counselling as I think he has PTSD as he has terrible nightmares and is very jumpy. His employer would pay for it.

I think over the years by exposure to my family he’s allowed himself to admit to himself, away from the brainwashing, that his mother is not a nice person. I think you do know as a child that things aren’t 💯 but it’s only when you allow yourself to think the unthinkable that everything comes out and you fit all the jigsaw pieces together. What the last 18 months has taught me about coercive narcissists - good grief, they’re strategic and determined.

The other son has Stockholm Syndrome. She rings him countless times a day on the basis of “looking after him”. The conversations are sooooo miserable. It’s not about care, it’s control.

CHRIST ALMIGHTY WHEN WILL IT END.

MM brought her upstairs to go to the loo and the whispering about “we can all eat together” starts. She thinks she can wear him down and then she’s “won”. The kitchen table where we eat has two chairs. I don’t think either of them are for me in her head. She’s planning ahead for when she moves in and I move out. 😹

Mr Monkey:” no, I’ve got a meeting that’s all afternoon so I don’t know what time I’m finishing. Monkey always cooks you lunch. We don’t know when we have breaks so it’s important that you get food. And we’ve made it a rule that we all eat together in the dining room for dinner.”

“But monkey doesn’t eat with me”. I would rather gnaw my arms off. AND I HAVE WORK TO DO.

And on and on and ON.

MM gets her settled in front of the machine of 500 decibels and the elaborate wrapping her in blankets starts. “No, not that way” By the way, she doesn’t have blankets or throws in the slum. Or cushions.

Everything nice or of ours (actually, mine because slum dwelling was my partner’s experience growing up) is used as a weapon.

I take deep breaths and go downstairs as the conflict over blankets has ended.

I ask her what she would like to eat: soup, ravioli, spaghetti hoops, omlette, scrambled eggs, foie gras, caviar, wakanui steak etc.

She wrinkles her nose up at everything.

“Oh, I’ll have soup I suppose.” In pained voice.

I go to cook soup and go back into the living room to tell her to please sit at the kitchen table as it’s ready.

She stands up and says “do you want me to take the blanket off?” In pained voice.

She doesn’t go to the kitchen table in her woollen toga with Mr Monkey, but you know that, right?

“Yes, because you might spill something on it” pragmatically.

The little old lady masks slips.

“Well, thanks a lot” with real venom.

I’m stupid in falling into the traps sometimes. Four more sleeps, four more sleeps.

Well, Monkey, I certainly hope that as she took her first mouthful you whispered in her ear, "I pissed in your soup." shamelessly steals "eat my shit" scene from The Help...

@Sicario funny you should say that...

Monkey you should be a writer you write so well. I can just picture the hag all wrapped in the blankets being a pain. She sounds utterly vile and you are doing so well dealing with her. Do you find she destabilises your mental health or are you resilient. Just get through the weekend and even if you have to physically move her she'll be gone xx

I had a crap child hood in children homes in the 70s, thankfully I was adopted.

Anybody had good experinces with different types of Therapies then?

Which Therapies did you find most effective)beneficial then in any way ?

Much appreciated I know its very personal ,
You do not have to reveal why you went into therapy , just the outcome helped you to understand yourself better or understand how to deal arkward or have a better relantship planktonic or Romantic or sexual .

Thanks