March 2021 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[Sicario]

It's now March 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4030633-September-2020-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=40

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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Your DH has his own issues with being manipulated. When you spoke to DB and DD overheard and got excited. He might now feel railroaded into it -which might seem to him like manipulation.

I have a close family member who is self absorbed and self centred -she literally in a two hour phone call only talks about herself. She is very hard work. I tried to have a relationship with her DS (she only has one child) and tried with my DC to get both of them to ring him / have a relationship with him. But he at the age of 10 is a mini her. About a year ago my eldest rang him and in an hour -he only talked about himself. The apple didn't fall far from the tree. So we now don't bother at all. A text at christmas and that's it. She moans that no one contacts her and her DS -there is a reason.

Just be careful. I don't see much that you have outlined as anything other than child behaviour. But go easy on him -can't be nice to feel pressured. Maybe next time -cut him off and say 'can't talk about this in the car maybe later' -did your DB know he was on speaker phone and your child was there?

Mine have a history of telling the kids first to 'make' me comply. eg Granny and Granpa saying we are going to x on the weekend to ride the rides -BEFORE checking with me that it was ok.

IIAP

Re your comment:-

"I want to think about NC but at the moment I think it will end up being LC. If we move where I want to be -we will be two roads away I don't want to end up ignoring them day in and day out. A polite wave if we see them. The occasional cup of tea with boundaries would be the ideal "

Given how your parents have and continue to behave towards you and your DC, I think even low contact will be a stretch too far ultimately. I would not even bother with giving them a polite wave to be honest with you; they do not deserve even that pleasantry. I seem to recall they ignored you when you were out driving past their house. And your last sentence sadly is unlikely to happen because your parents will not ever accept any boundary you care to set them. They've also set their trained flying monkey on you.

You really do need to find a therapist to work with here.

Given

NMNT my opinion is DH needs to separate out doing things for your DB and doing things for your DD. Sounds like you were happy to have DN as he's DDs friend/cousin, so you were doing it for her? The fact that your DB benefits was accidental, sort of? Wrong word because DB asked so no accident. Hope you know what I mean.

I wouldn't let DD stay with them overnight because they're a toxic family and she shouldn't be exposed to that with no backup eg it's different when it's you, SIL and kids because you're there to ensure no harm comes to DD.

I'd have one final try with DN because he's still a child and therefore an innocent. You can't change how he thinks or who he is but you can expect him to change his behaviour when he's with you. He's old enough to understand. Whether he'll comply is another matter. I'd sit him down with your DH on arrival (or in advance?) and explain that people do things differently, and in your house the rule is children do what they're told without questioning it, because you're good people who are not asking him to do anything harmful to himself. He needs to agree to accept this. So it's not constant explanation or justification or negotiation from you, it's just one rule he has to remember. He doesn't have to like the requests, agree with them or understand them, but he does have to do what he's asked. If he refuses to comply even when reminded of his agreement to do as he's told, then I wouldn't host him again.

Periwinkle they're never going to help you because they're not good people and they want power over you. Stop expecting them to behave like reasonable people, they're not reasonable people!

Block on your DC phone, SM etc. It doesn't matter if they know they've been blocked or not, you're not doing it as a power play to get one over on your parents, you're doing it to protect your DC from their toxicity.

Redirect your post. It costs the same if it's once or twice, it's a monthly amount. Redirect to a friend's house for now if you've no permanent address. Also contact every company and see if you can go paperless/online only.

They're throwing POA around like they're saying "talk to my lawyer". It's a power play, not reasonable behaviour. Every time you comply they think they've got one over on you. Which is not to say you shouldn't comply if it gets things done with less hassle and argument. Let them think what they like, it doesn't matter.

POA is health or financial or both. It means the person with POA can make decisions on your parents behalf and without their permission/agreement, as long as those decisions are in your parents best interests. They're not your parents lawyer and you don't need to have all communication about absolutely everything through the person with POA.

POA is something people set up to make their lives easier if they're struggling or likely to struggle eg learning disabilities or age related forgetfulness or a person who is basically fine now but has a diagnosis which means they'll deteriorate and struggle later eg dementia.

I doubt your parents have even given this person POA, control freaks that they are. They certainly wouldn't have done it in response to your supposed bad behaviour, because it's not a means to control you with**. Since you're not trying to force them into a care home against their will or defraud them of their life savings, someone else having POA means nothing to you.

**Except they are totally using it as something to control you with! With their mind games, power play, "talk to my lawyer" behaviour.

If they have in fact given this person POA then either they were going to do it anyway for their own reasons and it's a coincidence. Or they could have made out it was necessary by lying about what you've been up to and accusing you of eg stuff I just mentioned. It's very obvious from your posts that they've decided to paint themselves as some sort of victim.

My experience is narcs like to project, I think they might do it unconsciously, as part of being a narc. Eg. they've been trying to steal your life savings and have you dependent on them so they can control you completely, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if they've flipped it round and told others that's what you've tried to do to them. They tried (and have) stolen from you (TV etc) but they acted like you're the theif who can't be trusted (can't enter property and filming for evidence).

I don't know why you've such a problem with ignoring them, blanking them daily, or why you'd want to have coffee and chit chat with them, under the circumstances. "Being the bigger person" doesn't mean tolerating someone's abuse, it means not going down to their level eg walking away from an argument instead of having a row. You owe them nothing and will get nothing positive from them. Where's the point in maintaining any relationship when all its going to do is cause you harm?

"I don't know why you've such a problem with ignoring them, blanking them daily, or why you'd want to have coffee and chit chat with them, under the circumstances. "Being the bigger person" doesn't mean tolerating someone's abuse, it means not going down to their level eg walking away from an argument instead of having a row. You owe them nothing and will get nothing positive from them. Where's the point in maintaining any relationship when all its going to do is cause you harm?"

I see a lot in what you say. But at times I went NC sometimes for a year or longer. I was VERY lonely as a lone parent. VERY. Especially dealing with an abusive ex.

I had a massive hole in my heart from a young age and I do need therapy -absolutely as all my life I have felt unloved and unwanted and that is not going to be cured overnight. As I'm nearly 50 and it's still there.

I have zero confidence about any decision I make. Living away from them I did -I told them little and bit by bit the relationship got stronger and more loving. During lockdown they were amazing phone calls x4 a day -I felt VERY supported. Encouragement to move etc.

When I lived away from them and visited if they got abusive, I got packed and went to leave and they backed down. Living with them we couldn't do that and gradually my father in particular took over -disciplining the children or overruling me -every night I could hear them discussing me in their bedroom (My bedroom was next door). 10 pm at night 'She's a poor mother that boy needs to be in a special home -he's not academic' etc about my son. I would cry myself to sleep and if I confronted them he would say 'Wasn't talking about you' -they told me I was lying about the amount I spent on food at Tesco and in front of my daughter they said 'IAAP says she spent £150 in Tesco, she wouldn't know "£150 if it hit her in the arse she's so poor and bad with money. She's a liar 'etc -

Like with most abusers. I have moved to an area where I have a couple of friends during a lockdown -we moved here for a better relationship with them and I still WANT it. The kids have new schools, I have a new job -that in itself would be hard. Never mind this. I know it won't happen but I have been so low and suicidal in recent weeks and months this is going to take time for me to recover.

I can want a normal relationship. That's normal. Dreams are normal.

Tough love = Yes, I know I can't have one.

BUT, right now I'm grieving and hoping. I fall asleep and sometimes wake up after my Dad is holding me crying and saying he is sorry. Then I realise it is a dream because he has maybe told me that twice in his entire life.

The thing is I did get something positive -during lockdown I really really loved them. When we first moved they were helping. How lovely to come home and dinner is cooked and someone asks about your NEW job. I'd never had it before.

Even towards the end on the morning we left -when I said 'No I'm done -we are moving out and not buying the house with you' -for the first time in maybe 10 years my Dad was crying and saying 'Please let me buy you a house I love you. You are right and I'm wrong I'm too controlling' -part of me hopes he can see that again and reach out. Ok it's a pipe dream but I'm VERY low and I'm hoping. I still HOPE he can see what he's done and how we are. I still HOPE it can be fixed.

They are all the family I have. I'm not ready to let go yet -maybe with therapy. Maybe with help. Maybe when my support network is in place. etc and I feel stronger I will be able to look at a future of NC or LC.

Right now it's NC although they seem to be emailing and texting me -and yet I'm not allowed to reply. I'm not replying to their FM or anyone. So they won't know the situation.

My parents are the King and Queen of no contact. They don't seem to care less at the moment about us although FM says they are ill and can't sleep etc.

Maybe if my F dies, I might have a shot at a relationship with my M. I don't wish any of them dead -but they are both 80+

Can I have a little vent please! Have had just another falling out with my mother. It was probably partly my fault. Basically someone gave her something a couple of days ago for her house that was far too big.
I said I would take her somewhere she has been wanting to go for ages but thought I would drop this object off before with the help of my children. Shouldn't have bothered.
Lifting this large object, telling my daughter to get off her phone to help, mother is trying to lift this thing which would have broken her back. Take thing back to the person who gave her it with her going on and on about it then saying she won't forgive me for this, getting her in a state and shouting at the children?!! I ended up taking her home even though she said we could just go for the children!

We've always had a bit of a difficult relationship, I'm the oldest so had to bear the brunt of a lot. Her and my father had a difficult relationship, they should have divorced, he was no angel either. There was always a lot of argueing and shouting which I think has made me avoid confrontation with people. Think they both had issues from their own childhoods.
Father died nearly 2 years ago after a debilitating illness, she did look after him, I helped a lot, it was very hard work. She made things more difficult at times as she didn't get her own way on stuff. Think it affected my mental health. The thing is, she goes on about him now as if they had a great relationship, conveniently forgetting all the bad stuff and phoning me up moaning about him!

I've always had low self esteem and feel not good enough even though I'm in a stressful professional job. I think I sometimes let people speak to me badly in work as I'm used to it from her. Lockdown actually made it a bit easier as I didn't need to visit as often.
I have a big birthday coming up soon and really can't be bothered with it.

Sorry this long and thanks for reading. Just wanted to vent as felt quite upset. I know I can sometimes be snappy so maybe it's best to keep out of each other's way.

Sorry I didn't quite understand. She didn't want it? or she did?

Can you give it a few days and then ring and ask her if she wants to rearrange and go on a different day? or texts.

I'm going through hell with my parents and I'm sill looking for breadcrumbs-so others may well give you a different answer!
Rewriting history is very common -mine do it daily.

Can you let her talk about it for 5 minutes and then stop her and agree to move onto something else? Was your father abusive to her or was he an enabler?

My mother talks all the time about her sad life -she's a millionaire with multiple homes and travels x 6 times or more a year. She's rewritten history as the poor church mouse.

Sorry the object for the house was too big and didn't fit so it was just sitting in the house. She just took it from the person then realised it was too big.
Also an ongoing thing is, she is a hoarder and the house is an absolute mess and filthy.
She has contacted me saying it's a shame we didn't go out! I'm at the stage I'm just not taking crap off her anymore.
I'm usually the only one who mainly deals with things, the other siblings don't bother with her much unless they have to. Whenever we fall out I leave it a while then I feel guilty.

the other siblings don't bother with her much unless they have to. Whenever we fall out I leave it a while then I feel guilty
easier said than done but surely the solution is to follow suit and do what your siblings do, dont be the low hanging fruit and she cant pick you!

I'm the oldest so had to bear the brunt of a lot
when you were a child they had all the power, you can break your training and take the power back now
you cannot save your mother from her fate, start backing away now and you can save yourself from drowning with her

If you put up with abuse because you're lonely, does it actually make you less lonely? No need to answer I'm just musing. I see it as sort of like a form of self harming. Um, please don't take this the wrong way, but you seem kind of messed up in your thinking perhaps. Like, you're sort of thinking like them maybe? (I'm not meaning you're like them). I'm wondering if you thought NC would have an effect on them. NC isn't supposed to make them change, or make them care about you, or miss you. It's not supposed to be a punishment for their bad behaviour. It's not a power play situation of who blinks first. NC is for one reason only, which is to protect you from harm. Harm caused by them.

At the beginning it was positive and they helped [sic]

I don't think so, I think they manipulated. 4 phone calls a day encouraged dependency on them. They wanted your savings to buy a house of their choosing in their sole names, on top of that for you to pay them rent until their mortgage was paid off. At which point they would have supposedly gifted you the house (i don't think that was ever going to happen). I can see why they wanted you to live in a house owned by them, you'd escaped and they wanted control back. All the time you lived there they would have had full control over you, knowing you couldn't leave because they'd taken your savings. Lockdown has had a disastrous affect on many people's lives, I'm sorry it's had this impact on yours.

Seems they wanted you to buy them a house and relinquish all autonomy to them, but knew you'd never do that if they worded it that way. So they tried to make it look like an appealing prospect, a gift, a kindness. Of course they were nice to you at that point. If they'd have been horrible you'd have seen through them quicker and easier.

I can see how you thought they'd changed though. It looks like what they did was the physical equivalent of an insincere apology. Blowing hot and cold like this as an abusive tactic keeps people hooked in, hoping. Maybe its a new tactic because old tactics weren't working any more and you'd previously gone NC for a while.

Your dad crying, professing love and saying he'd give you control** ("you're right, I'm wrong" etc) whilst still asking you to put a noose round your own neck (see the contradiction?), was further manipulation I think. I don't see it as him 'seeing the light', but as just words designed to get him his own way.

**He can't give you what you already have.

I think good parents would have been happy for you and your confidence to be independent, pleased at you finding your own way in the world without needing to lean on them. They'd maybe have smiled and hugged you and said we'll bring round a house warming present.

Look what has happened the second your parents couldn't get their own way. Suddenly you're the enemy. Ridiculous. You've done nothing wrong.

Everyone has their 'last straw' point, I hope for your sake that you reach yours soon. You're a strong woman to be going through all this and not sinking completely. You've done very well recognising them for the abusive people they are and making big decisions about jobs and schools despite them knocking your confidence. And for breaking the cycle of abuse. Some people never see it. You should be proud of yourself for all you've achieved, for raising your family, protecting your children. I hope you can get a support network of friends, workmates, school mums, therapy etc set up to help you navigate your new life. You deserve to be truly happy and to be surrounded by people who can show you the respect you deserve.

What you said about wanting a relationship with them (even though you yourself refer to them as abusers) reminded me of something someone once told me about children who had to be removed from their parents for their own safety. She said even when the authorities win in court it wasn't a success in the typical sense of the word, because the children aren't happy, they don't want to be removed from their abusers, they want their abusers to change and love them like parents should. So I guess how you feel isn't unusual. I don't have any more suggestions for how to fix it though, sorry

EgoeswhereIgoes exactly, I am always the mug that does things. She is sometimes grateful and gives the kids money and can be generous. She has helped me out with child care in the past. I also take the kids to see her as she is their only grandparent.
To be honest it's been stressful for years with one thing and another, moving house, in laws getting ill and dying then my father being ill. Also juggling work, kids etc. I know people have a lot worse so don't want to moan. Just feel I'm nearly 50 and still get spoken to like a child!
The other siblings just don't put up with it, one rarely contacts her at all.

It's just sad when you hear people saying they can't wait to see their parents or hug them, I've never felt like that.

Kings

It’s hard being the last one left but your mother is really not worth bothering with. She was not a good parent either to you and your siblings when you were all growing up and she has not changed. All you can do is change how you react to her. It also does your own children no favours for they to keep on seeing you as their mum being so disrespected. Stop looking to her to be either nice or different now, this is who she is and always has been.

You would likely not tolerate this from a friend and your mother is no different. You do not have to carry the mantle of responsibility she bestowed on you.

Hoarding is also a recognised mental health illness and you cannot do anything about this so do not destroy yourself by trying. That is probably also why she took in this completely unsuitable item, she merely wanted to add it to her hoard.

Let go of any and all hope that she will change. Do you think your mother feels guilty towards you, no not a bit of it. Deal with the unwanted legacies of fear, obligation and guilt through therapy. Have a read of Toxic Parents and also read the Out of the Fog website.

Your boundaries re your mother need urgent revising upwards. All your mother does is take, take and take some more. Chucking some token money at the kids and some free childcare does not a good grandmother make. Gifts too should come with ribbons, not strings and I would think that all your mothers help has been loaded with obligation too.

Children need emotionally healthy grandparents and your mother certainly does not fit that bill at all. If she is too toxic or batshit for you to deal with, it’s the same deal for your kids too. They probably also wonder why you at all bother with her.

you hear people saying they can't wait to see their parents or hug them, I've never felt like that
me neither, my instinct was always to flee from them, personally I don't miss or mourn for the close relationship other have with parents, time spent with them always felt like time that had been stolen from me, I've always hated the suffocating feeling of 'family'.
I'm grateful and surprised that my children seem to like me tbh

Egos

My husband was never hugged as a child either by his shitty dad and my own parents do a good line in polite disinterest. Grandparents of the year they will never be. We made a decision to not act like these people and they taught us abject lessons in how not to behave.

Toxic crap in families can and often does go down the generations. It has to your credit stopped with you because you made a conscious decision a long time ago not to treat your children in the ways you were treated as a child. Your parents likely did to you what was done to them, they took the low road and never sought or even wanted to seek the necessary help.

Thanks @Iamaperiwinkle I had missed DBs call, I called him back but didn’t get him and by the time he called again we were in the car. I think I said “we are just in our way back from the park” so didn’t make it clear he was on speaker. DH could have been driving and I had phone to ear but we were out just us so it was just me and DD in the car. She didn’t make herself known on the call as she was playing with some bits she had collected at the park with friends and then she said “yeah, please mum can we?” When he asked the question. I had spoken to him the week before about something to do with his work, a friend had an issue involving the industry he works in and friend had asked if I could find out some advice for her. So when I saw he had called I actually thought it was about that.

I can see how DH may have felt railroaded or manipulated but that wasn’t my intention. He knows we’ve turned down offers from them to host DD twice now so it really was only a matter of time. I don’t plan to let her go there alone, I am running out of excuses though so if pressed I will say I will stay also under the guise of having a glass of wine with SIL or something like that. DD has stayed there once before with SIL only when DB was away for work.

@AmberIsACertainty that’s exactly it! DH needs to separate the two things, you’ve put it very well, I was trying to relay this to him when we argued. It’s not about DB, the fact it helps him is incidental, even though he request it as you say. It’s something both kids have been asking for repeatedly.

That’s a good suggestion about laying down the rules, I will give this a try. SIL always tells him to listen and behave for us though of course he doesn’t listen to that. I may take forward your suggestion, thank you.

I understand the situation isn’t perfect and I know I have work to do but like many of us have said and even more recently from Periwinkle & @KingsOfTheWildFrontier it’s hard to deny that feeling that something is missing and wishing you had family to look forward to seeing. Even 1 family member would do me. I think I am conscious of that with DD, I want to protect her but I’m also aware she doesn’t have a single GP who bothers with her, she loves her cousin to bits, they have loads of fun together and he makes her laugh endlessly so to deny her that due to my own issues feels sh1tty. I fully expect it to change though so expect in a few years they won’t be interested in eachother as they will have friends and other interests, then they will be at an age to manage their own contact if any.

I’m sorry to have railroaded the chat, thank you all for taking the time to respond, it helps to have the perspective of those who understand it and I’ve definitely got some further thoughts on boundaries and will ensure to answer the phone at a tactical time when little ears aren’t around

Thank you everyone for your replies, I feel quite emotional again reading them.
I can be snappy at times as well, I think my mother and I rub each other up the wrong way. She would phone me up about about things, like when my father was ill moaning about stuff. I would say , okay I would deal with it then she would say no don't. I would think, why tell me then? I think it was to get me involved in her issues but I have tried not to get as involved recently. I would end up really stressed about things. My DH would be annoyed as he knew it was mainly left to me and I would be moaning to him about stuff!

Her own mother, my gran, was quite controlling and wouldn't let her have the career she wanted. My father was financially controlling, a regular drinker and they were both verbally abusive to each other.
When he got ill and she became his carer, I think she quite enjoyed it in a way as it was the only time she had control in the relationship. When I had my own children I realised how hard it must have been for her, so I felt sorry for her.
Regarding the house, I think, Attila, it is a form of mental illness. I've tried to help over the years, my father refused to spend money on it. She doesn't clean up at all, there is literally almost nowhere to sit down. She can't cope with doing anything like getting a new carpet, I would need to do it.

It's so hard dealing with families! I wish everyone well and hope you all get some peace of mind.

It has to your credit stopped with you because you made a conscious decision a long time ago not to treat your children in the ways you were treated as a child
thanks Attila, I did! I cant fathom treating my kids like she did. I recently learned that a friend's parents thought my mother was horrible and were concerned for my wellbeing....this was in the 1970s.
Kings I agree about hoarding, kind of self harm, compulsive behaviour, maladaptive coping mechanism (my 'female gene donor' is an animal hoarder)

Notmenottoday

It’s not your fault that your relatives are so shit. You did not make them that way and indeed they’ve made you the family scapegoat.

Better to not have people like your brother and his family in your life in the long run. Children need emotionally healthy role models around them and your brother is certainly not at all healthy, infact he’s a carbon copy of your own narcissistic mother.

I would just repeat, no sorry this does not work for us if and when he starts asking to have your daughter over there overnight. Do not dance to his tune. If you still want to visit and I would still advise not to go there, only visit for a short period of time and only when your brother is not there.

Thanks @AttilaTheMeerkat I appreciate the advice and definitely will continue to work on my side of things. I find this one hard as DD is so keen. She doesn’t bother with DN on DHs side, mainly because MIL constantly compares them but that’s a whole other thing. It just makes it easier to avoid

I think my mother and I rub each other up the wrong way
I wish I'd done more of that with my mother, my only regret is that I never gave her some back when she was young enough that it wouldnt constitute elder abuse.
Appreciate that might not be a therapeutic stance to take but really I still want to batter the pair of them, they should keep away from me for their own good🤬

I've just found this and it seems the perfect place for me. I just started a thread but, if its OK, I'll copy and paste my issue here?

Flicking through Facebook (I know, I know, work of the devil!) yesterday and I had a realisation that I hadn't seen anything from my sister for a while. Started looking around and found she'd deleted and blocked mealong with my nephew (he's only 11 and ASD so it would have been her who did it) and BIL.

A bit of background, for context: my family is very dysfunctional, at best, and I am very much the outcast. I was NC for 7 years and then saw my mother at a function where she met my 18 month old for the 1st time and I felt I was unfair he didn't have much family so kept in contact but moved to a different county.

2 months ago my biological dad died from covid. As he is also my sisters dad, although she has had NC for a very long time, I phoned whilst he was on itu to let her know how ill he was. She reacted as I thought, said she wasn't fussed and said she didn't want to know if he died as it wouldn't have any impact on her life. Fair enough, I respected that, and didn't tell her (it was only 4 days later). I haven't heard a thing since that call, not a bloody thing.

I've also not heard a thing from my mum, not a message to ask if I'm OK (I was with him when he passed, I am devastated) or anything. There is so much history between my mother and I, especially the past couple of years, but I won't go into it unless specifically asked as I'm aware that it would make the post very long and probably very boring. Due to increased feelings of inadequacy within the family I decided a couple of weeks ago to just fade away, I've not made a song and dance about it and the only person I told is my husband. I'm guessing this is the reason why my sister has done what she's done but it's all a bit...weird. My sister always talks ill of mother and says she really dislikes her, it's all a bit 2 faced (if that is the reason)

Not really sure of the point of this post in all honesty, I think I just needed to get it put there. I'm not sure how I feel about it in all honesty.

What do you all think? Try to make contact and ask why? Or just leave it?

So I'm not new to having a crap and abusive parent but my current situation has me puzzled. My mother is the narcissist in our family, her and my father have been separated for over 25 years but are still friendly. A few weeks back I told my father that I was expecting my first child and his reception was very cool. Over the course of 3 weeks he was very disinterested, despite offering to buy us a travel system. It all came to a head when I rang him to let him know how the viability scan went and he clearly wasn't listening, so I asked him what the problem was. He told me that he isn't the babies father and asked why should he care about a baby he would never meet. Basically said it wasn't his problem and he was sick of hearing about it. I calmly told him that I would not accept him speaking to me in that manner and told him to call me when he wanted to offer an apology. I haven't heard from him since and I'm utterly baffled. I'm no contact with my mother and my golden child brother and it hurts that the final member of my family, who I spent a lot of my 20s nursing through his ill health would turn on me like this. I know he wasn't happy that I didn't intend to tell my mother about the baby but I did tell him that he could tell her after the 12 week scan if he felt he couldn't keep it from her.

Hi romdowa
who I spent a lot of my 20s nursing through his ill health
is this the crux of the matter, he views you as his own personal nurse and he is jealous of the devotion that your baby will receive?
he isn't the babies father
a weird and disturbing thing to say...imo :(
you may see your mother as the abusive one, but he presumably silently condoned it all?
I used to see mine as the nice one and the nasty one but then realized that 'nice' was the one who silently controlled things