March 2021 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[Sicario]

It's now March 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4030633-September-2020-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=40

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Glad I've found the latest version of this thread. I need to be here to read, for understanding. Making sense of my feelings and childhood.

I want to offer hope to anyone in the process of extricating yourself. You can create the life that's right for you and be happy. The ingredients were time, determination, understanding and therapy. With the caveat I don't think mine are narcs, but are dysfunctional and could have traits. I was and am prepared to go full NC if necessary in the future.

Nobody knows where I live and its bliss. Only my partner and a few close friends. It's not a secret except from family. It's just info I brush off questions and don't readily share. I bolded the first sentence because I feel like I want to repeat it at the end of every paragraph, it's such a wonderful feeling.

I don't feel sad when they don't visit, because I've no expectations of it. They can't visit if they don't know where I live.

No unexpected visits from my mum, not possible, she doesn't know where to come. She says she wouldn't, I don't believe her. If she felt, in her mind, that she was justified in ignoring my boundary not to visit without invitation, then she would.

I strongly suspect that if my mum didn't hear from me for 6 months and if she had sent 10 texts in the last month with no reply, then she'd be on my doorstep under the guise of making sure I'm ok. I have a partner, friends and I'm involved with health care professionals. She doesn't need to check I'm ok.

Family haven't met my friends, so no toxic comments about friends behind their backs and no having to apologize to friends for family weirdness.

I don't tell them any personal information eg health, finances, emotions, beliefs. I'm always "fine". I share home decoration pics, craft activities and novels I'm reading, because they don't comment negatively on those. And we talk about their hobbies. We don't talk politics, religion or current affairs. Well they might but I just hmmm in response.

I won't accept any rudeness including prying, insults or belittling and will literally walk away if it starts, even if I've only just arrived.

If I planned to spend an hour and something causes a delay, I still leave after an hour. I don't accept dinner invitation due to in the past not being fed, with serving food delayed upto 5hrs.

I have two phones so I can switch 'their' one off and my rest of life remain unaffected. They don't have my email and voicemail is off.

I reply to texts when it's convenient for me, not immediately. I don't initiate texts so I can't be upset at being ignored. I don't send gifts for the same reason. Any gifts received I thank and usually donate (unless it's something I like/want/need). I send a birthday text, a Christmas card and I never initiate meeting.

Sometimes I send a mother's day card. Just one saying 'happy mother's day' nothing else. I like people to be happy even bad people because happy people cause less angst for others, so wishing happy mother's day doesn't compromise my values or make me feel bad. It never says 'to a wonderful mum' or anything like that.

I'm very low contact and I don't miss them. I wish they were different and we could have a relationship based on friendship and mutual respect, but we can't because they won't do it. We meet maybe twice a year and it's ok.

It took me 3yrs to get to this point. But it was worth it. If they hadn't accepted the new rules I'd have walked away for good. I didn't state the rules except the occasional "please don't do xyz". I just put my boundaries in place and enforced them, which is easier said than done. But I feel safe now. My home is my sanctuary and nobody can invade it. I have peace of mind because they can't invade my mental boundaries either, I won't let them. I came from a people pleasing zero boundaries mindset, by the way.

We are such low contact that if I had to go NC there wouldn't be anything much to miss, I've almost completely mentally detached, so I'd grieve a little and move on.

It's nice now not to feel angry at ongoing behaviour or fearful of future caring duty and to wonder what they're thinking: It's not happening, I'm not doing it, it's none of my business. I just get on with my life now. It's a relief and a release.

@AttilaTheMeerkat

IAAP

re your comments in quotemarks (that I have separated out):-

"Exactly what you said ATM -I am always seeking their approval etc -and now they will have us living in the same village and the joy of not speaking to us".

You need to stop with seeking their approval; IIRC you are looking into getting therapy. This needs to be a priority for you going forward.

You in turn will have the joy of not speaking to them (or their attendant FM).

"They could of had the kids for tea once a week -and a lovely relationship and it's all gone".

Sadly if they are too toxic/difficult or otherwise too batshit for you to deal with, its the same deal for your kids also. Even once a week contact is once a week too much, they do not need or warrant people like your parents in their lives. Your kids need to stay away from them as much as you do. Not all relatives are nice and kind and some of them like your parents remain actively abusive. Your parents do not want a relationship with their grandchildren; they want to rule over them too. Narcissistic people also make for being deplorably bad grandparent figures too; the lack of interaction is painful and its a bit like watching a re-run of a tv show you've always hated. These people have not fundamentally changed either since you were yourself a child.

"I don't think eldest will ever forgive them -roll on 6 weeks for her birthday -no doubt she will get a text and an amazon email voucher"

I would think she would not forgive them either, she is under no obligation here to do so. They have been affected too by their behaviour and you as their mother certainly have been. I would be advising her to not at all acknowledge or to return any items sent; doing so opens a door that should remain closed. A text and an email voucher as a present from them is really showing no thought or effort at all. My MIL is of a similar bent with short arms and long pockets i.e tight fisted.

Narcissists lack empathy, so they don't know what you want or like and, evidently, they don't care either; second, they think their opinions are better and more important than anyone else's, so they'll give you (and your kids) what they think you ought to want, regardless of what you/they may have said when asked what you wanted for your birthday; third, they're stingy and will give as gifts stuff that's just lying around their house, such as possessions that they no longer have any use for, or in really choice instances return to you something that was yours in the first place. In fact, as a practical matter, the surest way NOT to get what you want from a narcissist is to ask for it; your chances are better if you just keep quiet, because every now and then the narcissist may hit on the right thing by random accident.

There's only one way to get decent treatment from narcissists: keep your distance. They can be pretty nice, even charming, flirtatious, and seductive, to strangers, and will flatter you shamelessly if they want something from you. When you attempt to get close to them in a normal way, they feel you are putting emotional pressure on them and they withdraw because you're too demanding. They can be positively fawning and solicitous as long as they're afraid of you, which is not most people's idea of a real fun relationship.

OMG.

At christmas we were staying with them and they did not give me a present on christmas day -nothing. Absolutely SWEET FA -nothing. I was upset but tried to hide it and Mother went and looked through cupboards and said 'I thought we weren't giving gifts this year to you as you are an adult, she gave me an old bottle opener' and then my Father said 'When the shops open we will take you shopping'.

I was fucking heartbroken. I had got them some nice bottles of champagne etc

Then my mother on boxing day gave me soaps that I had given her 15 years ago and her old tapestry half -done as she 'knows I like crafty things'. FFS she even gave eldest some old school books from when she was at school saying 'they will come in useful'.

Every single birthday and christmas it is a £20 Amazon voucher -every single time. These are people that are millionaires, yet screamed at my son for having more than 2 inches of bath water.

Eldest is on the waiting list for counselling and I will get some too.

I crave warmth and a mum and dad that really want and get me and just want to spend time with me and hug me.

My Dad barely looks at me and most of the time ignores me.

The videoing me yesterday was deeply upsetting. Like I was a bloody criminal.

Amber that's good to hear. Once my house has sold I will be getting therapy and moving back to the village. They will be local -but they won't know where we live -although I guess they can spot the car etc

At the moment we are NC albeit with a flying monkey contacting me. I just want a safe space back. A nice house and a garden even if rented.

iamaperiwinkle you'll get there. You could always report the rest of your stuff stolen if they won't return it, or ask for police assistance to collect it. Would the neighbors who waved perhaps help you by getting it so you could fetch it from their house? Or can you give a friend's address who wouldn't mind you saying it's your address? So they can drop it off like they keep saying. You friends could say it's a house share and you've gone out.

We've got to love ourselves, the opposite of how we got treated, make ourselves feel safe. Feel our emotions and get them out so we're not carrying it all around forever. Hug your children and friends. Do things that's kind to yourself.

I think it sounds like your parents have decided they're going to be the victims in this story (their version sure ain't reality) and they've said to people you're behaving badly because you've gone mad. On the plus side, you know you did the right thing not handing over all your savings and getting tied into what would have become a financially abusive situation (and probably other abuse just because they could). The positive is no more wondering, giving it all your headspace. Now you've seen the truth you can't unsee it so going forwards that truth gives you the opportunity to make better choices for yourself like cutting them out.

TinyTroubleMaker I started my process from a different angle. I accepted that for various reasons 'healing' as in fixing myself probably wasn't an option. So I went with acceptance instead. So xyz happened and I feel however about it, deal with the feelings by expressing them. So I have this person, who is who they are, accept that fact and decide on what basis, if any, I'm prepared to interact with them. Accept my damage and figure out a life that works for me, a damaged person, and allows me to be content. Not trying to fix myself or my life to fit in with the world. Making the world work for me. Does that make sense? If you can't treat the underlying cause, treat the symptoms. But I'm not necessarily meaning a medical way more a holistic kind of way. Like fitting the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle together. So ignore the whole 'my family are shit' thing because you can't necessarily fix that, especially without therapy.

So the first step is to identify a problem. An example: if you can't keep friends in general because of your psychological damage, ok fine so accept it, but you want some friends so what circumstances can you cope with friends in? Superficial friends for occasional meets? Running group (or another activity, so there's a focus) friends? One close friend who gets all your available 'friend' energy if there's not much to go round? A community group for a cause you care about? Another example: who says we have to have therapy and antidepressants? It's not law to fix ourselves completely. Do you do harm to others? To yourself? If not, you're basically ok. So you're angry at something/one maybe? Find a solution for that. A journal? A Voodoo doll? A massive poster "life is shit" to throw darts at?

A weird solution is still a solution. We're all just trying to live our lives. There's not only one way to do that. NC with people who are harming you is a good place to start.

CeciledeVolange (sorry if I spelled that wrong) so glad you escaped. Your situation was appalling, your parents are appalling. You, however, are amazing. Talk to women's aid and your friends if you have a wobble about thinking of going back. Can you meet your workmates for lunch? To keep you part of things. I see your work signing you off another month as positive. Not signed off as a worrying because you'd do a bad job, signed off as an act of care. Unreasonable to expect a person to work when they're on the edge. Are you a workaholic? Workaholic is avoiding feelings. Maybe right now you need to cry half the day, nothing wrong with that. Just get a good eye cream.

Amber, I like your style, you speak such good sense💗
On the subject of damage, I'm fine with who I am but it makes it difficult to comfortably integrate and interact with other people, mostly I don't want to!

Well well well, they got a bit of a nasty shock today. So it's a long drive out of their close and they have to pull out and down a road that is on my way to collect the kids from school. I left work early -and I was on the main road -stuck in traffic and who should just happen to be on the other side of the road level with me in their car -MR & MRS Weirdo were there. There was a good two minutes where they clocked me and I just wiped my face clean of any expression (I have to do this for work and have a 'neutral face') and focused on the car and traffic ahead. They looked like rabbits in the headlights. My dashcam was on as normal and I didn't move it to point sideways into their car although I was SO tempted.

House sale could be completed soon -this month and as eldest said -we aren't fucking moving out of the village. Nice village, where their schools are -we haven't done anything -we aren't moving!!

Shame you didn't have a key you could have detour your journey and got the rest of your stuff back knowing they were out. Never mind though and yes no need for you to leave the village if you don't want to. Hopefully they're all talk and no action so you'll be able to get on with your lives in peace.

How is everyone? I'm a bit low today. I do want them to text or ring and say 'Sorry we've been shits. Please pop round and have a cuppa and can we move on' and give me a big hug. I haven't got anyone to give me a huge right now and I could do with one. Arrgh. I hope it gets easier the NC thing.

I'm very low too Periwinckle, I've been seeing a psychiatrist every week to try and deal with long term childhood abuse trauma.
I've decided after an incident this week that I'm done. I've tried for years to try and keep in touch with and appease the abusers and I'm fucking done.
There will be no more emails, visits or attempts to keep in touch. They have been manipulating me for years and years. I don't need them.

@Shehasadiamondinthesky

I'm very low too Periwinckle, I've been seeing a psychiatrist every week to try and deal with long term childhood abuse trauma. I've decided after an incident this week that I'm done. I've tried for years to try and keep in touch with and appease the abusers and I'm fucking done. There will be no more emails, visits or attempts to keep in touch. They have been manipulating me for years and years. I don't need them.

I'm sorry to hear this. I'm ok for hours or a day and then it hits me. All my life a fucking great big hole where it should be full of love. They never liked or loved me ever- frequently told me I was difficult (I wasn't), wasn't a high paid doctor or this or that -just one big disappointed. Frequently told me they wished they had never had children (from the age of 7 upwards). They played divide and rule with siblings and were doing it with my own children. Eg love eldest she gets chocolates and sweets and cuddle on sofa -youngest gets seperated downstairs and is crying as grandad is pointing agressively at him telling him 'You will behave yourself and stand up straighter and do x or y as if you don't I will beat you and make you behave' he is sobbing uncontrollably. Then my dad lies and says he didn't threaten him and youngest runs upstairs, gets in his bed (early) and is sobbing -he is not lying -he started wetting the bed and crying and telling me not to tell grandpa as grandpa will beat him etc -he's been dry for 4 years. I can't imagine bed wetting being something he has ever done.. My Dad tells him he is a Mummy's boy and youngest is lying and on it goes. It was abuse. We moved out and he hasn't wet the bed since.

It's reaching that point where enough time has passed from the initial realisation that they've done a bad thing, to the further realisation that they're not good people and then essentially falling out of love with them. That's what makes it easier.

Once you accept them for who they really are and always have been (just you didn't know it) then you realise they're never going to change and you stop wanting them in your life. Until you reach that point it's a case of committing to doing right by yourself and walking away because they're abusive, regardless of how much you still love them or how much they might say they love you.

Love is never enough, you need respect and kindness too. Without those it isn't really love, only a shadow of it used as manipulation.

Of course you're hurting. A parent's main purpose is to love, nurture and protect the children they chose to bring into this world. When they choose not to do that and act selfishly instead it's the ultimate betrayal.

Even as an adult when they are no longer responsible for us, it's one thing to say "sorry I'm unable to help in this situation" and quite another to set about deliberately being manipulative and abusive to try to have power over us. Realising that someone isn't who you thought they were is very difficult and takes time to process and grieve the relationship.

It might not feel like it, but the ones who don't apologize actually do their victims a favour, one of the hardest things is to recognise when an apology isn't genuine but just more manipulation, because we so much want to believe it's real. A constant merry go round of abuse, insincere apology and excuses/lies keeps people trapped for longer.

Show yourself the love, respect and kindness that your shitty, inadequate parents were and are incapable of. Somehow you need to learn to soothe your own soul. Which isn't easy. But it's easier than forever chasing a positive emotional connection with someone who is only capable of toxicity and selfishness.

Amber I want to quote your post and put stars around it
Such pearls

Oh! Thank you Egoes ☺️

Amazing words amber you sound so knowledgeable and self aware xx

Came on here for a bit of perspective from you guys and read @AmberIsACertainty words above, which are so accurate!

Sorry to jump in, I would appreciate some perspective from those who have perhaps experienced similar. My family are all toxic basically, I manage this by keeping LC, I don’t want to go NC, keeping them at arms length seems to be working for the most part and has certainly been easier the last year and low contact has been even less.

The one person I see more than any other is my DN he’s just a child and close in age to my DD, they get on very well. I see him by arranging catch ups etc with SIL mostly when DB is working. SIL is fine, we generally keep conversation light though DB has very toxic traits and has treated me very poorly in my younger years. His view now would be he was just a kid and we get on great. My view is he was just a kid but he lorded his golden child status and enjoyed adding to my misery as the scapegoat. Getting me in trouble, blaming me for things he’d done and enjoying seeing me punished. He has apologised for things that happened though I suspect this was to ease his own conscious.

He’s very selfish and thinks everyone should do pretty much anything for him, likely due to being brought up the golden child. We’ve had enormous fallings out simply because I have said “no” to him. As a result, he rarely asks me for much, which is a huge change. If something doesn’t work, I will tell him no.

He has asked that I have DN overnight in a few weeks. I’ve agreed, mainly because DD gets on with him so well and the last 2 times we have caught up they have both asked when they can have an overnight and also because I don’t have other plans so it’s fine. I think I have him over maybe twice a year if that when you take into account what’s been happening the last 12 months.

All fine, however the moment I told DH what I had agreed to be goes in massive mood but of course says he’s “not in a mood” and is “fine”. We have it out and he is frustrated because my DN is quite hard work (he is to be fair but also just a kid and DD loves being with him) and because DB has treated me like crap but has no hesitancy in asking for things.

As stated above it’s not a regular occurrence, my LC with all my family falls when DH is at work as he can’t stand any of them due to their behaviour, fair. However am I expecting too much in wishing he would support me rather than being another person for me to battle? We talked and I asked him if he thought I had forgotten all of their behaviour and he said no, so I asked why he thinks I need reminding of it? I am trying to manage the situation as best I can for me and I could really do with his support rather than additional criticism, it just makes me feel like I can’t win. Do something the kids will Iove, yes it helps out DB but it doesn’t actually inconvenience me and then DH is pissed off. For context DHs family are also a nightmare in different ways, he literally will not do any favours for them, they ask and he replies no thank you or similar. I feel he expects me to behave and feel the same way. He isn’t bothered about keeping relationships with them or his DN on his side but that’s his choice and I respect it.

Sorry, that was loads longer than planned. I can’t talk to anyone in RL about this as they don’t “get” the issues dealing with toxic family. So am I being an idiot for agreeing to this as DH is implying or does he need to support me in trying to manage things the best way I can for me?

NMNT that sounds tough. I can see where your DH is coming from. He has dropped the rope completely?

Does DN have some of the same traits as your DB or is the difficulty just because he is a child?

Others will have wiser words than me. I would take DN but insist on our family rules etc Maybe DH doesn't want to be accused of something etc.

Advice please for me. Bingo I have messages from my mother.

She basically says they have opened some of my letters by mistake and as they have no forwarding address they took screen shots and have emailed them to me as they might be useful. Lots of love, Mum

6 weeks ago when I left we had a discussion about post and they agreed to give it to the NDN that I work with (I agreed this on the phone with my mother). I haven't received a single letter. Although they put some letters in one of the black sacks I picked up from the drive.

They have my work address but have not forwarded on any post their. I'm waiting to move as soon as my house completes so I'm reluctant to forward on post and then forward on again -as it costs a lot and I don't have any money to spare right now.

So a couple of issues -I have to contact them through their supposed POA? But it's ok for them to contact me direct? How is that fair?

They have requested a number of time through their supposed POA for my address to drop off stuff etc but I'm not allowed to go to theirs? When I did they filmed me like a criminal and didn't put everything out.

Feeling very confused. com and don't know how to reply or deal with it. I've ignored the message from their FM about the TV etc and figured I would write it off -rent somewhere in a couple of weeks in the village and then arrange a postal change on everything. I have post going to both addresses right now and also work. Argh.

"He has asked that I have DN overnight in a few weeks. I’ve agreed, mainly because DD gets on with him so well and the last 2 times we have caught up they have both asked when they can have an overnight and also because I don’t have other plans so it’s fine. I think I have him over maybe twice a year if that when you take into account what’s been happening the last 12 months".

How old are these young people?. Actually their connection to each other seems tenuous at best and as they get older they will separate and further make their own friends. Your brother is exploiting you further really by asking you to have his child overnight; you readily say yes mainly because your DD gets on with him (well for now anyway, that could well change as they get older).

How is DN hard work exactly?. Is he a golden child too like your brother still is within your family.

You seem very much afraid of your brother still and seek his approval by readily accepting his son overnight. You in turn use your DD liking him to facilitate this further.

Your comment re your DH is quite telling as well:-
"However am I expecting too much in wishing he would support me rather than being another person for me to battle?"

That to me also suggests that you are afraid of your brother and his reactions if you say no and I would encourage you further to read about being enmeshed within a toxic family structure. If your DH readily agreed this makes it easier for you because you do not face the long standing issues between you and your brother and further you do not have to worry or think about your own discomfort. Enmeshment is a highly toxic state for you to be in and your DH is entitled to his opinion too.

IIAP

You need to set up a postal redirection service; this can be done online these days and it costs about £33. I would also block your mother from being able to contact you in such a manner, that facility is being misused by her. They also never had any intention of handing any post over to your NDN or to your workplace.

I would not believe for one second that they opened your letters by mistake; it was a deliberate act on their part. Your parents are using hoovering techniques to try and draw you back in; do not fall for it. They were never going to let you go that easily hence all this nonsense from them now.

Ultimately you need to ignore all these messages; replying to any of this from them or their trained flying monkey will absolutely do you no favours whatsoever.

@AttilaTheMeerkat

IIAP

You need to set up a postal redirection service; this can be done online these days and it costs about £33. I would also block your mother from being able to contact you in such a manner, that facility is being misused by her. They also never had any intention of handing any post over to your NDN or to your workplace.

I would not believe for one second that they opened your letters by mistake; it was a deliberate act on their part. Your parents are using hoovering techniques to try and draw you back in; do not fall for it. They were never going to let you go that easily hence all this nonsense from them now.

Ultimately you need to ignore all these messages; replying to any of this from them or their trained flying monkey will absolutely do you no favours whatsoever.

I want to think about NC but at the moment I think it will end up being LC. If we move where I want to be -we will be two roads away I don't want to end up ignoring them day in and day out. A polite wave if we see them. The occasional cup of tea with boundaries would be the ideal .

I'm not responding to anything at the moment. In the past I moved 300 miles after an argument was NC / LC for about 3 years and very lonely. If my father dies -there will be less of an issue with my mother.

My view point right now is I'm going not through the FM if you aren't going through them. So don't scream and shout and send me horrible texts saying I must go through X, and then email and text me direct yourself. But likewise I am not replying. I also think they are showing me that they control ALL the communication. I know that whatever response I make will be wrong. Eldest has a birthday in a few weeks -they are going to send her messages without a doubt direct to her phone -aren't they? All she could do is block them -but they don't get noticed then do they -as it they won't know they have been blocked.

Thanks for the responses, I have said no to DB many times when things aren’t convenient and it is accepted, I wouldn’t hesitate to say no again if the arrangement didn’t suit. We did have a blow up years ago when I said no and he lost his temper, he was told then that I am not his staff and if something doesn’t suit I will say so.

The fact is this time it’s not a problem as we have no other plans and DD has been asking for him to come overnight. It’s a rare occurrence, he came once last year and this would be the first this year.

Both kids are primary age, with DN a little older and only one more year of primary to go. They get on great, laugh a lot and there has never been a cross word (yet) I full expect this to change as they get older and get their own interests so expect this won’t go on much longer.

DN is hard work in the sense that you constantly repeat yourself when he is around. If you ask him to take his shoes if he asks you why, if you say we are going for a walk he asks why, if you say it’s dinner time he questions why it can’t be later, etc and repeat. We have answers for all these such as our house rules for shoes, etc but it is tiring. He also isn’t good at listening so has to be repeatedly told to stop or wait or be careful if you are at a park etc for his own safety and others. Nothing major, just a bit hard work.

I think this possibly comes from mixed messages from DB & SIL, DB will say it once and then shout, SIL feels this approach is too hard so she goes softly softly and repeats herself over and over, threatening but never following through on consequence. When we last saw them he kept asking to do something he was already told no to, over and over again. I think she threatened to take him home if he asked again about 6 times and he kept asking until it was actually time to leave. He doesn’t seem aware of social cues, I often wonder if there is more to the behaviour. I try by best to be tolerant but it is tiring at times.

I respect that my husband is entitled to an opinion, it is just hard at times as I can feel like I don’t have support and I am doing g my best to navigate this.

Yes, DH has effectively dropped the rope with his family, he seems to have a good way of dealing with it. I accept I am not there and need to do work but have found a way of coping with mostly works and I am still working on myself. It harder than I thought to pull away from years of training to be in a role but I am trying.

This is a longer conversation for the two of you to have -boundaries and respect to listen to each other and make a joint decision about DN.

Did you say yes before discussing it with DH?

Your DN sounds like a version of his father, himself a narcissist. He is defiant as well. With your brother as his father and your SIL as his mother he is seeing two diametrically opposed parental approaches. He will certainly have problems with other people as he gets older as a result if it’s not happening already which it likely is.

I would make his visit now to you all the very last overnight one. You should be under no obligation to host him or anyone outside your own family.

I would think a lot more about your boundaries re your entire family of origin because they to my mind need more work. It indeed suits you to have his child at your house on this occasion so there was no blowup but I dare say he would have lost it with you had you said no. Being accommodating to such people like your brother and for that matter your family of origin does not make them respect you more. They want to keep you in your assigned role as scapegoat for all their inherent ills.
Low contact too often leads to no contact. Ultimately too you are going to have to drop the rope too with all your family of origin because they’re all toxic and any interaction with them is for you painful because there is really no interaction. It’s a bit like watching a repeat of a tv show you’ve always hated.

I would also think your brother is a carbon copy of one of his parents, themselves a narcissist. One is certainly the narcissist and the other is their willing enabler. People like this (and that includes your brother ) cannot do relationships and in his case his willing enabler is your sister in law.

@Iamaperiwinkle I did loosely agree before telling DH, I was in the car with DD when DB phoned so he was on speaker I said I thought it would be ok but would check the diary and let him know. When we got home I checked the diary and said to DH that he had asked and diary was free so is that alright? DD was leaping about excited by this point.

Perhaps I would be better not to answer in that setting where DD might hear things I may not want to commit to.

DB has asked me before and we’ve had other plans so I’ve said no and it’s been accepted. He’s also asked to have DD, take her out with DN and have her overnight and I’ve said no to that as it’s not suited at that time. This wasn’t always the case but after our falling out I made it clear I have the right to say no.

What is getting to me now is that it seems I also don’t have the right to say yes!

DH will also invite friends round for dinner and tell me he’s made plans, if he checks the diary and it’s clear he’ll then tell me he’s invited x & y round whatever night (pre covid of course, haven’t don’t that for a while) it’s both our home, I don’t have an issue or expect him to run everything by me.

DB takes after DM who is exactly the same, i never thought of DN behaviour being narcissistic as he is still a child. DF left and got himself out the situation though soon found himself another Narc DW!

I fully accept I still have things to work on. The LC I have now is a significant change to how things have been previously so while I’ve a long way to go I feel I have come a long way though I am working on it and will continue to for quite some time I imagine! Unfortunately