March 2021 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[Sicario]

It's now March 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4030633-September-2020-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=40

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@EgoeswhereIgoes

Hi romdowa who I spent a lot of my 20s nursing through his ill health is this the crux of the matter, he views you as his own personal nurse and he is jealous of the devotion that your baby will receive? he isn't the babies father a weird and disturbing thing to say...imo :( you may see your mother as the abusive one, but he presumably silently condoned it all? I used to see mine as the nice one and the nasty one but then realized that 'nice' was the one who silently controlled things

Oh absolutely he stood by and only stepped in when she kicked me out at 15. Even still he has remained in her life , I know 100% he is not innocent at all. I also found his comment about not being the babies father quite disturbing and he also had a huge issue with me referring to myself as a mother. I reckon you could be right that he sees me as the one to take care of him and has probably always thought that should he need care again that I would come running. Obviously with a Child that would no longer be possible. I'm lucky at least that my in laws are excited about all this and have been a fantastic support. Still stings though that my own flesh and blood will never care.

Hi Bleddy, I'm so sorry for the loss of your Dad

I think I would stay with the fade out strategy, if your sister is trying to 'send a message' she may after a while try to get a response from you, letting her come to you allows you to retain the upper hand to an extent.
Do you think that a relationship with your sister may be possible and/or desirable in the future? If yes then staying 'faded' may allow you to not burn any bridges?

has probably always thought that should he need care again that I would come running
I recently realised that my male gene donor has been subtly working on me in this regard for years.
he also had a huge issue with me referring to myself as a mother
I find that disturbing, as if he thinks you are his property and doesn't like that you have been impregnated by another man (I apologize for even typing that)

and only stepped in when she kicked me out at 15
she was hot headed but he was more in control....and stepped in because he saw a fantastic opportunity to secure your undying loyalty so that you will serve him in his old age
looking back mine did similar..

@EgoeswhereIgoes

and only stepped in when she kicked me out at 15 she was hot headed but he was more in control....and stepped in because he saw a fantastic opportunity to secure your undying loyalty so that you will serve him in his old age looking back mine did similar..

Lucky for him as two years later he got sick. I'm sorry to hear that you've had a similar experience. You'd have to wonder why these people had children only to neglect and abuse them

Yes it's stings, but being rejected by your own child probably stings more, serpent's tooth and all that 🙂🐍
Mine had children by accident, it was made very clear to me that I was a mistake, just focus on the positives, if they didn't care about you that means you don't have to care about them... you are free 🤩

romdowa

re your comment:-
"You'd have to wonder why these people had children only to neglect and abuse them"

Well indeed you would wonder. Part of this answer I think is to do with societal convention.

Congratulations to you on your pregnancy. If your inlaws are nice and importantly emotionally healthy people to be around I would concentrate my efforts on them going forward.

Your dad is still very much his ex wife's willing enabler along with secondary abuser here. He cannot be at all relied upon either. Continue to protect yourself and your child from Bad Things; family are not binding and your family of origin are toxic at the very least.

@AttilaTheMeerkat

romdowa

re your comment:-
"You'd have to wonder why these people had children only to neglect and abuse them"

Well indeed you would wonder. Part of this answer I think is to do with societal convention.

Congratulations to you on your pregnancy. If your inlaws are nice and importantly emotionally healthy people to be around I would concentrate my efforts on them going forward.

Your dad is still very much his ex wife's willing enabler along with secondary abuser here. He cannot be at all relied upon either. Continue to protect yourself and your child from Bad Things; family are not binding and your family of origin are toxic at the very least.

Thankfully my family are in a different country and come the end of this week they won't even know where I am as we are moving. I will always protect my child, I just didn't realise it would have to be from all of them. I actually feel blindsided by my father's actions and a bit foolish that I never seen it coming. I do hope my inlaws OK, they seem like very lovely people but as I've discovered pregnancy can change things in family dynamics but at least now I'm aware of it!

Good luck with your escape romdowa. Peace awaits you.

Hope everyone else is doing ok today.

I'm tired but then I haven't slept properly since December or even before that. I'm still struggling with not replying to either the FM or the DM's message. But I'm sitting on my hands and trying not to.

Waking up x 10 times in the night each night means I am fucking exhausted and I'm not thinking clearly. I'm angry tonight. Daughter pointed up it will all be very different in 5-10years so we can't think of what if.

DM's message (she emailed me direct) I have read and reread a hundred times. It is not an apology, not asking after us, not opening any door, there is no question -it is all a statement of fact, so I don't think it requires a response on any level. But I can't help searching for questions and answer -why didn't she do it through the FM? Why contact me direct? IS she wanting a relationship? etc -I'm going round and round because I'm tired. If I wasn't tired -I could think better, worry less and sleep better- and so on.

IS she wanting a relationship?
Only if it's one where you are under her control working for her benefit!
I hope you can get some decent sleep soon.
I hear your pain and confusion, I find that a good long period of no contact from the problematic person helps me to feel less confused and able to focus on my best interests

Hi everyone,

Thank you for all you support and advice with my recent situation. @Iamaperiwinkle how are things?

I’ve read over again the last couple of pages and it’s all so familiar, I also want a relationship with my family but know I can never have it. My mother broken down a few years ago, filled with drink, and apologised to me through tears running down her face for how she treated me and admitted how wrong she was to always out GC DB first at cost to me at times. I had dreamed of an apology, the reality is though that is was only words. Her behaviour never changed, shortly after the outpouring she asked me to help her get in touch with DB (they are NC) and just like that, the apology meant nothing, it was a way of softening me up before getting what she wanted... the precious GC. I wish it was different but I think she is incapable of changing.

Like previous posters have noted, my DM is a hoarder, she is incapable of throwing anything away, her sofa is 30 years old and broken in places, the carpets are filthy with burn marks in them and she claims she doesn’t dust as it bothers her allergies. I was always embarrassed when friends would ask to come to my house, because of the state of the place and also because of my mother and how she behaved. She prided herself and still does on being “different” she’s basically just an argumentative sod who goes out of her way to defy convention as she thinks that somehow makes her special or interesting.

@AttilaTheMeerkat thank you for your insight, I have been reading up on enmeshment and I 100% fit the bill, it’s almost textbook. I have managed to get myself on a waiting list for 6 sessions of counselling, I suspect I may need much more and possibly more specialist but finances won’t allow for that at the moment and I suppose it’s a start. This thread also helps immensely, thank you all!

Yes six sessions are a start but you are right in that you will need more than that.

This is a good article on mother and daughter enmeshment:-

www.bethanywebster.com/blog/we-cant-save-our-mothers-from-their-pain/

I want to think about NC but at the moment I think it will end up being LC

This is what I did, I convinced myself that my narcissistic parents weren't that bad really and that LC would keep them at arms length and I would be in control of the situation.

But this is everything wrong with this massive power imbalance. I had empathy, whereas they have none and seek to further their own ends whilst denigrating me to anyone who will listen.

With LC, they will continue to reach out to you, gaslight you, manipulate you and further tie you in knots with them by tugging on your empathetic heartstrings and emotions. Yet it's a cold and calculated move - they don't suddenly care about you, they care about their hold on you.

Going LC is a waste of time with these people. I was LC for a few years and looking back now they sought ways to increase their hold on me. I've only been NC for a month now (thank you to everyone who replied to my post, I've needed time to process things) and can see the sunlight, with therapy/EMDR/Stabilisation on the horizon.

They will never relinquish their hold on you whilst you remain in contact. And they will never apologise, take any responsibility or accountability for their actions.

And hi Attila, much love to you ❤️

Thanks @AttilaTheMeerkat - that is an EXCELLENT article. This quote from Jeff Brown really resonates.

“One thing I have learned with certainty is not to stand in connection with those who diminish me. This is particularly difficult when family is involved, because we have a vested interest in perpetuating the family system for all kinds of different reasons. I don’t believe one should endure abuse no matter how attached they are to an idea of family. There are many families (read: soulpod) waiting for us just outside our habitual awareness. We are not responsible for those who diminish us. We really have to get that. We can be compassionate, and we can certainly understand where their abusiveness comes from but understanding the origins does not mean we have to endure it. It’s not our cross to bear.”

They will never relinquish their hold on you whilst you remain in contact. And they will never apologise, take any responsibility or accountability for their actions
So true, sever the cord and be free🦋
they cannot bear to see you spreading your wings further than they spread theirs, they see you flourish and their impulse is to drag you back down less you outdo them and make them feel diminished.
I am proud of my children's achievements I want them to outdo me, go beyond me, transcend whatever I was able to achieve.

I've had a long and I mean long conversation with the GP.

I'm not coping. neither is DD.

I'm not sleeping and having done for months. After a huge long sob down the phone he said all the stress I'm under is external and mainly caused by them (no shit sherlock) and that anti depressants aren't the answer but the referral I made myself in January for counselling -wouldn't come through until the summer so -he's referred me to the MHT -I haven't got a clue what to expect. He wanted me to take time off work but I really can't. Too much pressure there.

I feel like a child. I'm thinking through every text, every email -every possible reply or the actions of not replying or their FM -at 12, 2,3,4,5,am -it keeps me awake and I can't switch off. I wake up and I've had a dream my parents love me and are normal and then I realise it's not true etc.

I'm not in good place mentally. I told the GP I wanted therapy and counselling.

I don’t have any advice really unfortunately but couldn’t read your post without replying.

You sound completely overwhelmed and consumed by the recent events and interactions. Well done for contacting the GP and getting some progression there, that can be so difficult at the best of times and even harder when you are in the eye of the storm and clearly going through much turmoil.

Please be kind to yourself and give yourself the space you need to get through this very hard time. You sound exhausted and strung out, I’d imagine you need some rest more than anything else and the exhaustion will also be playing havoc with your thoughts on top of everything else.

I am so sorry you are going through this and wish I could offer some words to help, please know we are all here, willing and able to listen. You are not alone, though I know it feels that way right now.

We have moved forward a little today. I've finally confided in the neighbour that I work with what has happened. Thank Fuck I did -she knows we are living at work as DD had told her DD and she could have accidentally spilled it to my parents innocently. She has said she won't. She said she wanted to ask me at work -but felt it was best if I went to her.

I have a referral to MHT and a GP appointment again Tuesday. I'm chasing DD counsellor.

We moved in November but I haven't had my hair cut and neiher has DD for over 18 months. We got the name of a nice hairdressers through work -we are all going on Wednesday for a cut. She spoke to DD (very long hair) and said to her that she wouldn't cut it short -but half way and then she could see what she felt after a few weeks and if she was still agreeable to it being shoulder length she could have it cut again next time.

My eye sight has gone downhill -again no appointment for 18 months. I have an appointment tomorrow. I have contact lenses and need reading glasses and it just seems pointless -time to go to glasses full time I think.

Baby steps. We went for a huge long walk by the sea and sat on the beach eating fish and chips. We've come home and painted some rocks -so that's a lot better than sobbing all day.

Hope everyone else is doing ok

Hiya Iamaperiwinkle👋glad to hear you are making progress, well done!
Come Wednesday you'll both have had haircuts and the GP appt will hopefully reassure you that there will be support from the MHT.
I am well versed in the therapeutic effect of being by the sea, I've lived on the coast for over 30 years, it really helps me.
How are things on the sleep front now?

I didn't sleep at all and youngest came in at 4am and just moved around constantly and then the workmen on site started at 6am. So not good.

I'm just worried about the hair appointment for me as I have huge bald patches and scabs all over my head -hairdresser comes highly recommended and seemed very sympathetic. And she's not my mother's hairdresser -so no connection there. She's doing it in the evening as well so that's a huge relief.

I’m glad to hear you had a better day and have plans for the week ahead, one step at a time. I really hope you can get some sleep, the sea and some painting sounds perfect, some rest on top would be a great bonus. Baby steps are still steps in the right direction, well done!