March 2021 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[Sicario]

It's now March 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4030633-September-2020-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=40

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@digitalnative

I feel for you. It was because of my sister that I finally had no option but to go NC with my whole FOO (family of origin). She is a complete nightmare. Always has been, and nobody would ever stand up to her because of her awful behaviour. She says terrible things without thinking, causes trouble left right and centre, then just walks away and blames everybody else.

My sister also farmed out her kids to both sets of grandparents every single weekend as well as most weekdays, AND had a nanny, (she doesn’t work) because she couldn’t cope with the drudgery of parenting (but would never admit that she couldn’t cope). Her son is also a narc and wasn’t the easiest of kids.

Having a narc sibling is difficult because the parent(s) will usually do anything to keep their family together so will constantly excuse their behaviour. However the damage they wreak on others is unforgivable.

I have not found any books dealing specifically with narc siblings, or having a narc sister.

What I have learned is that there is no reasoning with an unreasonable person, and that narcs never change. You will always be made the scapegoat. There is no non-dramatic way to go NC when there is a narc in the family, because the narc will definitely make a huge drama about it, even if you’re not there.

Look up DARVO – which is the narc’s tactic for turning things around so that they always make out that they are the victim. Grey Rock technique is for those times when you absolutely cannot avoid having to interact with them.

Anyway – welcome to the Stately Homes threat, and welcome to the other newcomers. This is a good place to find support.

@OliveBlue I don't think any explanation is going to make them think your decision to cut contact is justified. If you want to explain why because it will make you feel better about your decision, go ahead, but if they haven't taken the hint yet it's unlikely to influence their behaviour. I agree with @AttilaTheMeerkat that you need to block where you can, if you can bear it. This is for your peace of mind, not for them, because then you won't be able to see their messages coming in and it won't worry you and take up your valuable energy and mind-space!

@alwayslucky you’ve struck a chord here with me, I feel like a fool the more time goes on and the more I think back and remember. Why did I even put up with it, it’s not like I had to live with her even, she left when I was 12 and I kept in touch. She’s got this way of making you feel guilty for things, buys expensive gifts so you have to contact her otherwise you’re the bad person for being rude and not thanking her for gifts. Always woe is me about her family never being in touch, no bloody wonder, putting the pressure onto me as the only one who bothers. I just don’t understand what she gets out of it? The small continuous put downs are not singularly anything to write home about but when it’s constant for years I suppose I became numb to it, because she’s ‘kind and thoughtful’ blah blah. She poked my nipple when I was switching to FF and not wearing a bra to avoid mastitis, then said ‘look what breastfeeding has done to those, and DC has ended up with allergies anyway, haha’ I’d FaceTimed her crying so many times over the switch and waking 10 times a night becoming exhausting. It still seems so cruel, what does she gain from doing that? She knew I felt awful about it, literally poking me. The more time goes on I feel like the more time I have to think clearly, but I’m thinking about the hurtful things so much repeatedly I need to take my kind of it some how. Today I went to the beach and DC started crying my friend who knows about the NC said ‘I thought your mum didn’t ever see him cry and that he was a happy, pleasant boy at all times’, mum had used this to try and convince DP and DMIL that I’m unwell and lying about how tough I’ve found it sometimes because that’s ‘not the little boy she witnessed’. As if they didn’t know that our DC cried sometimes!!

@OliveBlue

I explained why I was going NC to 2 people – my disabled brother, who totally got why, and my mother, who always refuses to hear anything she doesn’t want to hear. There would be absolutely no point in explaining to narc sister, because it’s impossible to reason with a narc. My alco brother is a lost cause.

Going NC really upsets the people you NC with. There is no way of avoiding that. So there’s little to be gained by explaining it to anyone. They will either not believe you, or tell you that you’re being dramatic and ridiculous, or some other excuse to keep communications open so that they don’t lose their scapegoat.

Once I made the decision that was it. I have never contacted any of them again, have ignored any attempt to contact me, thrown uninvited post straight in the bin, then finally moved away and didn’t share my new contact details with any of them.

Being NC does get easier as time passes. The guilt and grief is very hard at first – particularly the first year or so – but then I remind myself of all the times I’ve been kicked in the teeth and thrown under the bus.

Sicario

Mona Diggins has recently published a book on the subject of narcissistic siblings. Its called "Narcissistic Sibling: How To Recognize, Disarm, And Shield Yourself From Narcissistic Brothers And Sisters" and its available on amazon also in kindle form.

Thanks, Attila! One step ahead, as usual .

Hag Update.
Second vaccine today to which Mr Monkey took her to. We’re getting her shopping whilst she’s got her broken arm and Disabled Brother slash servant can’t take it up to her flat. I’m playing no part in doing stuff for her as I just cannot be arsed to endure the nastiness and spite.
MM just home and yep, as vile as ever.

She’s coming round her next Sunday for lunch.

Thankfully, we get exposure to normal person - my mum who I’m so lucky to have after reading the horror stories on here - on Saturday with a lunch in our garden. Christ what I’d do to be not in a bubble with the Hag.

Three phone calls since MM got back. Utter nightmare.

Can I join you? Really struggling, for the millionth time, with my mum and her ability to somehow leave me feeling damned if I do and damned if I don't.

She's in her 70s, lives alone, health a bit wobbly. Will not allow anyone to help her, has just made me promise not to visit her - for the millionth time. If I want to see her I have to do it as a surprise, I can't remember her ever saying "yes it would lovely to see you ". She lives about 90 mins away. I feel really guilty if I don't visit, must admit its slightly "what would the neighbours say" but I also do worry about her and I do miss seeing her.

Is it me?

@Notagain20 I would say the more the merrier, but it's sadly the opposite - welcome, anyway. Why is your mum making you promise not to see her? Is it Covid, or "not wanting to bother you" or something else?

Everyone - I'm going to return to normal responses tomorrow if all is well at that point - I've got my appointment with the police this evening (which is going to be awkward to get to but never mind). I am scared of all sorts of things happening - that I might get arrested, that I'm going to get someone else into trouble, that they will talk to my dad and all hell will break loose, or that this will be the reason I don't get to move here long term. If anyone has any advice or reassurance I would be so grateful! I have been regretting it from about the second I put the phone down, particularly since a few tantrums aside my mum has not actually prevented me temporarily coming to stay in their other house. She was very theatrical about it, my dad and I told her the timings we had agreed to travel here and she said "nobody told me about this!" - we had decided it about an hour before - and then she's sent a load of text messages to me and my dad requesting that we bring certain items of hers back to her house. This is a bit rich given that she has frankly stolen several items of mine but I am not letting it rattle me for this evening...

She poked my nipple when I was switching to FF and not wearing a bra to avoid mastitis, then said ‘look what breastfeeding has done to those
WUT??
I'd have 'accidentally' poked her in the face with my fist
she enjoys crushing you because it makes her feel superior and that's the only place that feels 'right'/'natural' to her.
I have the same thoughts, why did I put up with the ridiculous behaviour??
it's FOG, rabbit in the headlights, social norms which cause us to give family members the benefit of the doubt...
the doubt that is created by the FOG and general confusion, these human squids always pouring out the ink to hide the true picture

Hello engineer I totally relate to the non stop criticism and put downs relentless since I can remember and worsening with age. She sounds vile but I know what you mean that in isolation you can think it wasn't so bad or I'm over reacting. But if your mum is like mine it's all very carefully thought out and planned to spear you in your weak spot and if she can't get a rise out of me she moves onto my children and I do react.
I think they do it for a reaction like a toddler and compete in some way with their daughters having to put them down. I'm sick of thinking why and the psychology of it basically she chooses to be a critical cow.

I'm trying to go lower contact and I'm getting all saccharine I miss you so much msg it repels me, makes my skin crawl as she has never been a loving caring mother.

Try and lower the amount of interactions you have with your mother you don't need constant criticism and put downs. Focus all your energy on your own wee family. Love kxx

Need help. After a blow up this week involving the usual criticisms and nasty comments from mum, have tried to minimise contact and this was my intention going forward. She’s just turned up at the door wanting to talk! I said I don’t want to talk, nothing to say as it is the same repeated cycle and I’m fed up. She wants to come on Tuesday to help me out with housework but I said no (this is where the latest criticisms have stemmed from). She said I’m
Obviously angry so let her know when I’m read to talk (NEVER). I said no point as there is nothing to say, I don’t like the nastiness I receive and that’s all there is to it. She was quite taken aback and said “You don’t want a relationship with your mother?” I stuck to my line of I’m just not ok with the nastiness and she left. Fully expecting an absolute barrage of messages next.... after two decade this is the closest I’ve come to saying F off. Anxious about what next? I know she hair won’t understand why I’ve done this. At all. 2 DCs who she will probably see at her house next weekend.

Sorry to ramble. I’m just needing help with what next/how etc 🙈🙈

cockneylass

If she is too toxic/difficult/batshit for you to deal with, it’s the same deal for your children too. Keep them well away from your mother because she could well otherwise drip all sorts of crap into their ears.

Keep on saying no, do not let her in to your home and do not JADE (ie justify argue defend or explain).

If she starts sending text messages, block her. Infact I would do that now.

Do you have siblings, if so what do they think?.

@AttilaTheMeerkat just my mother. There's no one else left who she is in communication with, we also have a very small family anyway. Only child thankfully.

@CeciledeVolanges I agree that no explanation will help really. Just can't come to terms with it still at the moment and just feel like I'm being an awful person at the moment. Keep trying to remember that it's self preservation. Think I am going to make contact with my old counsellor this week. I'm just in limbo.

I had her blocked, until she tricked me into answering a call from her, cue her usual melt down which at the time I didn't even really react to because I'm so impossibly tired. Then I caved and unblocked via one message service. Error I know. I haven't even read majority of them.

@Sicario thanks. I lived overseas for some time in the past and it was the easiest way of life. All communication controlled by me and no need to ever see her. What a freedom. I just feel weak at the moment. Just mentally and physically tired. That makes going NC harder. Although I feel this limbo state is possibly worse.

Completely failed now and messaged her back. Back to the same old. It'll be completely fine for "X" period of time. But what's the point. Other than a fake feeling of having a normal mother-daughter relationship.

Well done @cockneylass for coping with the ambush, she did that in full expectation that you would be blindsided and unable to stop her getting her way!
And lets just think about that, it mean's she believes that you should not be allowed to make your own choices and that she has a right to enforce her will upon you as she sees fit.
As Attila says, keep refusing and dont JADE, she has to back down or risk looking like a demented sparrow throwing itself repeatedly against a closed window

@OliveBlue

Completely failed now and messaged her back. Back to the same old. It'll be completely fine for "X" period of time. But what's the point. Other than a fake feeling of having a normal mother-daughter relationship.

you have not failed it was a lapse you can easily get back on board anytime you can easily de escalate the contact that you have with her, you can back away slowly or run away fast anytime you want you can control this relationship

Olive

I would second the comment you have not failed; its a lapse that's all and you can get back on the low contact wagon again. You can indeed control the levels of contact she tries to impose on you and no is a complete sentence.

The only people who tend to at all bother with such family members are those who have received the special training i.e. the now adult children of same. Many adult children of the narcissistic parent have done the self same before you; do not berate yourself further here.

Thank you @AttilaTheMeerkat and @EgoeswhereIgoes

You are right. It's a lapse. The brief conversation of around 4-5 messages exchanged already included a passive comment about an expectation, so I immediately tuned out and didn't continue to respond or read her further messages. Some level of control maintained.

Some level of control maintained
it's a foundation that you can build on😊👍

@OliveBlue it’s just a lapse. These people are so determined to wear you down, I’m not surprised you feel the pressure. Dust yourself down and be kind to yourself.

These people are LEECHES.

The Hag has worn me down that the slightest infringement into my space - physical or psychological- boils my piss.

The Hag is on the phone almost constantly now to Mr Monkey. This is obviously how it was/is with disabled brother in law day in, day out. Thing is he’s getting more disabled by the day and we’re healthy and round the corner...

Every time the phone rings I’m angry. It’s absolutely and utterly unnecessary.

This morning:
Hag: I need a new pan.
MM: we’ll get you one.
Hag: I don’t need anything fancy*.

Plenty more calls follow.

*fancy is reference to me and my “fancy” ways e.g. having nice things.

@AttilaTheMeerkat you gave great advice about not doing / buying stuff for her. The pan is the absolute last thing on my list of priorities right now.

I’m not buying stuff for her to have a dig at me like piles of unwanted gifts in her spare room (passive rejection), a new cooker and washing machine that she has to use but get constantly criticised (guess who sorted those?)

Mr Monkey can sort it.

The constant calls are about control. We are now being blackmailed slash “rewarded for all our help” with takeaways. Control. Or an effort to
obscure her vile behaviour.

MM’s a spare time writer and has just written something about his childhood. I can’t read it as it’s not an accurate picture of his childhood. Avoiding the subject.

I just want her to fuck off and fuck off some more.

On the fancy new things front, I take great pleasure in having blown my unexpected bonus on a swanky rug from a posh shop which she might just trip over.

The Hag will have to look at it when she comes to ruin our Easter Sunday slash comes for lunch.

Not all of us want to live in spiteful self-denial.

Sorry if this is a rant about “little things” but these fuckers are experts in a 1000 cuts.

@MonkeyfromManchester - leeches is a good word for them. Any form of parasite will do.

Short story. I seem to recall preparing Sunday lunch for dysfunctional family and feeling so stressed that I accidentally on purpose drank loads of wine while making the cauliflower cheese. Decided to leave everything smouldering in the oven, announced I had a migraine, and went to bed before anyone arrived. I did not emerge until they'd all left.

Perfect day.

Doormats of the world; unite! We can defend our fellows, who have been habituated not to see they are being used as boot wipers.
Read this thread as if the relationship is with an abusive ex partner, and it would scream out.
People say they do not wish to continue the relationships but are being stalked, messaged, harassed, coerced, bullied, cajoled or forced. Unwanted letters, gifts, texts arrive.

The unwanted one turns up at the door. They say that the relationship cannot be over, because that isn't what they choose to permit.
They insist that the one who is trying to put an end to things is crazy, incompetent to manage alone, useless and helpless.
They threaten they will come to harm themselves, to make the escapee feel guilty. They exploit the victim's low esteem and assertiveness and high kindness levels.
Replace "but I'm your mother" with "but I'm your husband", and you see it doesn't amount to a certificate of permanent ownership.

Feel a bit of a fraud posting here because my dm has been dead for many years but I feel that you lot are probably most likely to understand my feelings.

From very young I always felt I wasn't good enough and was wary of telling dm anything as if it wasn't something she agreed with she could make you feel 2 inches high. I don't think she did it on purpose as some on do and I know she loved me but it was her way or the highway situation.

The worst thing that happened was when I was 11 and realised that she had been lying to me for years, that my df was not my biological father and she must have married before and that her 1st husband must have been my father. She didn't tell the truth when I challenged her but was forced to a few days later.

She told me the bare bones, that most people didn't know and I wasn't tell anyone.

She didn't tell my step dad that I knew, I realised when I was about 14(they'd divorced by then) that it was up to me, similarly she didn't tell my half sibling, I told them when I was about 17 and they were 12, it was obvious she wasn't going to say anything and I felt they deserved to know the truth. They were surprised about the facts but not that our dm had hidden it