March 2021 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[Sicario]

It's now March 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4030633-September-2020-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=40

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thanks for your reply @AttilaTheMeerkat. I haven’t heard JADE before, makes a lot of sense! So is this about my decision to minimise contact? Don’t justify, argue etc?

I have two younger siblings, one who has been NC for many years. The other has been on and off LC. Step-sister red by my NC with them. 2 other step siblings on ok terms but not much involvement. I think pleasant enough when they meet for the odd dinner but it is so infrequent that it isn’t a problem.

I have read a lot about narcs having no empathy. What does this really mean?z I see that she feels and experiences sadness for someone else (I.e. somebody loses a close family member, she can feel sad about it) or feels sad about a situation. So my understanding is that they themselves feel sadness and pain but they struggle to really understand how/why someone else feels pain?

Surely somewhere in there there must be some little lightbulb goes aha! when they look at how many people have stopped talking to them?

Yes absolutely. This week it has been right down to saying she’ll pay for a cleaner to come to mine weekly and she will also pay for me to seek professional help!

Say no to it all from your mother Cockneylass. Gifts too should come with ribbons, not strings, and what she is offering is loaded with obligation or otherwise not wanted.

They don't understand the meaning of what people say and they don't grasp the meaning of the written word either because so much of the meaning of anything we say depends on context and affect, narcissists (lacking empathy and thus lacking both context and affect) hear only the words. Discussions with narcissists can be really weird and disconcerting; they seem to think that using some of the same words means that they are following a line of conversation or reasoning. Thus, they will go off on tangents and irrelevancies, apparently in the blithe delusion that they understand what others are talking about. And, frankly, they don't hear all the words, either. They can pay attention only to stuff that has them in it. This is not merely a bad habit it's a cognitive deficiency. Narcissists pay attention only to themselves and stuff that affects them personally. However, since they don't know what other people are doing, narcissists can't judge what will affect them personally and seem never to learn that when they cause trouble they will get trouble back. They won't take other people's feelings into consideration and so they overlook the fact that other people will react with feeling when abused or exploited and that most people get really pissed off by being lied to or lied about.

"Surely somewhere in there there must be some little lightbulb goes aha! when they look at how many people have stopped talking to them?"

No, well not in my experience of them anyway. There's good reason why a covert narcissist like my MIL has no friends. They are neither wanted nor actually needed by MIL, she really does think that other people think like she does. She made her late H's illness and death all about her and was far more concerned about putting on an oscar rated performance for the hospital staff to let her onto the ward an hour earlier than official visiting. She had no idea of what to do for a wake and originally suggested that any mourners who came could have a cup of tea and a biscuit afterwards (note singular).

@Sicario

That’s hilarious. I love the thought of pissed, charred cauliflower cheese and you leaving them to it.

Funny you mention the headache, I think one of my head splitting cluster headaches will arrive. I’ll take myself upstairs as she can’t bear any kind of competition with her (many) illnesses and woes. She will have Mr Monkey all to herself and I will be lying in bed with a novel. Joy.

She’s only phoned three times today. Once this morning which woke me up - thanks for that. No apology. But as she believes that as a freelancer that I sleep all day I deserved to be woken from my golden slumbers.

Lunchtime to say her water was off.

Just now she’s phoned to say the water in her flat is still off. 6 hours later. My heart leapt into my mouth: fuck, she might have to come here.

MM is off to Tesco to get her bottled water.

I cannot BEAR the idea of her here. EVER AGAIN.

AND, of course, she’s now ramped the calls up to three times a day which is in line with what Brother In Law contends with. What a surprise.
I’m sure that poor bastard has eight a day now.

I predict more calls in the morning about the fucking water. I’m sure she PAYS for people to fuck her flat up.

Yet more fucking control. She is sooooooo calculating for someone who’s “old and helpless”. FFS.

OPENING THE WINE.

@alwayslucky
This is it EXACTLY. They play the family card and get off scotfree.

In an update to my post about the fucking pan The Hag needs.

Whoops, I forgot about that pan. Silly me.

So nothing bog standard and nothing “fancy” (anything that I buy). NO danger of receiving spite if you forget to get it.

I bought a “fancy” rug (trip hazard) yesterday. Oh,well, fuck me, I’ve just bought another “fancy” rug for our bathroom. Possibly, with the same trip hazard qualities...

Then it’s dawned on me that she would try to trip to have an extended soujorn here so they are getting PACKED AWAY.

So ended up back here and they won’t let me out, again, I even called a taxi and my mum sent them away from an upstairs window! So I called the police again, they sent someone and they are spending a lot more time talking to my parents than to me. I just called them because I’m 28 and if I want to go out and hurt myself I can, even if I did want to. I feel like a spoiled teenager. I can hear them both talking about me. It’s lies but I can’t change it.

@MonkeyfromManchester I really do recommend "checking out" of all interactions with The Hag. I do also hope that MM can find a way to step back and disengage. It's hard, because of all the guilt trip shit, but it does get easier as time passes. The phone calls are totally draining. I hope you will be able to find a way to reduce them.

@Sicario it doesn’t feel like it to me sometimes (!) but I’m disengaging from her. I’m not washing her hair, I’m not sorting stuff out for her house any more, I don’t join phone calls, I don’t answer the phone. I will leave present buying to Mr Monkey. I see what all these things are: enmeshing me. I’m out. I’m a natural rescuer but you can’t rescue toxic.

The support on this board to see this as absolutely the right thing to do is immeasurable.

MM will stay enmeshed. Last night he was talking about taking her to an Irish cultural centre every week. Ridiculous. And pointless. It will never happen. I think he’s idealising a childhood and a mother he never had. I want no part of it. I’m not having my spare time taken up with her.

Going out for a sunlit socially distanced walk with my 66 year old neighbour who is a great example of positive ageing.

@CeciledeVolanges

So ended up back here and they won’t let me out, again, I even called a taxi and my mum sent them away from an upstairs window! So I called the police again, they sent someone and they are spending a lot more time talking to my parents than to me. I just called them because I’m 28 and if I want to go out and hurt myself I can, even if I did want to. I feel like a spoiled teenager. I can hear them both talking about me. It’s lies but I can’t change it.

When the police arrive, can you leave with them present?

Just leave and go stay with friends?

Your stuff is just stuff, unless they certify you as with capacity then there's nothing to stop you leaving while the police are there.

Much love

@Sicario RESULT.
The Hag’s water and heating is off. The housing association are BEYOND shit. But at no time has Mr Monkey suggested having her staying here. 🙌

Of course, she’s pecking away at him - she doesn’t ask outright, she prefers a war of attrition and entitlement - but he’s ignoring it.

He’s got various medical appointments with her over the next few days where she will try to wear him down.. I’m staying out of it.

It’s great to feel no guilt and obligation. I have the odd waver but I remember how VILE she is and my promise to myself of never dealing with this shit in our home ever again.

She’s going to milk it for all it’s worth. But I do not give a flying f**k.

@alwayslucky

Since I read your post I can't stop noting in my mind a couple of sentences -

"Read this thread as if the relationship is with an abusive ex partner, and it would scream out. "

"Replace "but I'm your mother" with "but I'm your husband", and you see it doesn't amount to a certificate of permanent ownership."

This is exactly it. If these relationships were with a husband or ex, it would be so different. I'm currently feeling some of what you're saying, I've tried to end the relationship but now have opened it up again (my fault) by letting her communicate with me, (I.e. unwanted but I feel guilt and obligation - something I know I desperately need to work on).. it's just a cycle.

And it's terrible at the moment because I'm not giving her what she wants, therefore the communication and comments are constant passive aggressive / filled with guilt ridden emotive statements about various things but predominantly about me not letting her see her grandchild.

Anyway, thanks for those statements that you made because it really helps put it into perspective.

@OliveBlue it is absolutely the best way to view these people.

I'm so sorry @MonkeyfromManchester but I had visions of The Hag deliberately sabotaging her heating/HW system.

@Sicario it crossed my mind...

Such people like the Hag really have no interest in improving their own lives. They use other people to facilitate their life for them or actively seek their opinion. They lie casually and as easily as breathing, they really do believe all the crap they spout (MIL I am also looking at you here).

It would not surprise me if it was determined she messed about with the water and heating systems as well.

@AttilaTheMeerkat
They have NO interest in improving their lives whatsoever wit the slum and clothes etc.

The water and heating is a fault with her block. They’re sorting the last 14 flats out today.
Cue: “well, typical, it would be my flat that’s the last one to be sorted out.”
This is NEARLY as good as the vaccine martyrdom.
“I’ll be in the 10% that it doesn’t work on”

This morning we’ve had two phone calls.

First one was about her meds delivery.

Second one was about how lonely she is.

The second call was designed to elicit our response.
“I know! Why don’t you come and live here? It would be lovely”

Mr Monkey told her that she needed to phone other family members.

“No one wants to speak to miserable old me”
(I concur)

She’s FULLY aware of what a life sapping leech she is on people. And wears it like a badge of honour.

I’m so proud of MM not playing the game.
“Well, the solution is in your hand. The phone. You can’t complain if you’re not prepared to try solutions”.

This is how we handle her now. Moan gets blocked with a solution. It will never ever change but at least it shuts her up for a bit.

MM has two days off from his very stressful job and that time is taken up with her.

Come June we’re dumping her back with the brother in law.

As he’s done nothing to fight back and has no life as a consequence of her and has stood by and let this happen he can deal with the monster. It was MM who said this. “He’s made a rod for his own back”

He’s 60 something and has had his life since she retired 20 years ago made into a place of her vindictive anger and lived as her servant.

We’re not prepared to ruin our 50s because of her.

It’s 11 weeks away to the magical moment in June.. Not that I’m counting or anything.

MM is firm that she will not come back here ever again. I’m taking @Sicario’s excellent advice that if she has a fall that we demand social services care.

I think she’s getting dementia (her behaviour has always been vile so it’s not dementia related) so maybe the care home is getting closer. I won’t be visiting.

@AttilaTheMeerkat

They don't understand the meaning of what people say and they don't grasp the meaning of the written word either because so much of the meaning of anything we say depends on context and affect, narcissists (lacking empathy and thus lacking both context and affect) hear only the words. Discussions with narcissists can be really weird and disconcerting; they seem to think that using some of the same words means that they are following a line of conversation or reasoning. Thus, they will go off on tangents and irrelevancies, apparently in the blithe delusion that they understand what others are talking about. And, frankly, they don't hear all the words, either. They can pay attention only to stuff that has them in it. This is not merely a bad habit it's a cognitive deficiency. Narcissists pay attention only to themselves and stuff that affects them personally. However, since they don't know what other people are doing, narcissists can't judge what will affect them personally and seem never to learn that when they cause trouble they will get trouble back. They won't take other people's feelings into consideration and so they overlook the fact that other people will react with feeling when abused or exploited and that most people get really pissed off by being lied to or lied about.

"Surely somewhere in there there must be some little lightbulb goes aha! when they look at how many people have stopped talking to them?"

No, well not in my experience of them anyway. There's good reason why a covert narcissist like my MIL has no friends. They are neither wanted nor actually needed by MIL, she really does think that other people think like she does. She made her late H's illness and death all about her and was far more concerned about putting on an oscar rated performance for the hospital staff to let her onto the ward an hour earlier than official visiting. She had no idea of what to do for a wake and originally suggested that any mourners who came could have a cup of tea and a biscuit afterwards (note singular).

Thanks for explaining this. Have re-read it a couple of times trying to make sense of it. I’m just wondering if right now with these days of silence she’ll be thinking that it’s me who has been the unreasonable one. Yet she has stayed silent... which is very out of character.

cockneylass

I would think her silence towards is her way of punishment along with trying to regain some power and control here.

@cockneylass - the "silent treatment" is all part of the pattern with dysfunctional people. The game is that they want you to break the silence by apologising or asking them what the matter is. They cannot see or accept that they are the ones causing the problem. The blame will be placed squarely with you.

I went through this pattern time and time again because it seemed like the only way to smooth things over for the sake of keeping up family relationships (which frankly weren't worth having).

More fool me. It always backfired eventually. Everything would appear to be okay for a while, until the next time it happened. It's exhausting and serves only to enable and feed the dysfunctional behaviours.

Can I just ask, is it normal to feel anger when you start unpicking and coming to terms with this stuff? I feel so much boiling rage towards my DM now and could on occasions, happily smack her. This is despite me never having hit anyone in my life and being very anti violence of any kind. Don’t worry I’m not going to lower myself to that, but I just feel so much boiling rage for her inability to give me the emotional nourishment she should have given me growing up. I know I can’t change her, and I know she had a difficult and emotionally abusive childhood at the hands of a narc mother. But you know she could done something about that. She could have made a conscious decision to be different and parent differently, and sometimes I get the feeling she would like to connect with me on a deeper level and can’t. But none of this is my fault. At the moment I’m keeping my distance because of how angry I feel. One of the few perks of lockdown I suppose...

I suppose I just need to vent really, and ask if this is normal and if anyone else feels like this?

I think its quite normal. Feeling anger is part of the grief process and you will need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got. Your mother could have indeed been different but chose instead to reenact what was done to her. You cannot heal her pain, nor it is your task to do so.

@Cactus1982 - yes, it's normal. And it's really hard to deal with. I felt utterly heartbroken on behalf of the child inside me who was so badly treated. I was also angry, thinking "how the fuck could you do that to a kid?" The beatings were horrific, and the constant criticism. I was terrified, all the fucking time.

Something that helped me was the eventual understanding that she was a deeply unhappy woman and that she was unable to cope or to control her emotions. She hated her life.

I started work as soon as I was able to (16), saved some money (a pittance) and left home at 17. What I went through was unforgivable, but I have forgiven her. I needed to make peace with the past.

Anger is poisonous and eats you from the inside. Letting go of the anger was crucial for me.

Thank you Attila and Sicario. I’m trying not to let it eat me up, but it’s a very recent development that’s only come from me processing what happened. I think my DM is also a deeply unhappy woman who can’t cope with her emotions and will do anything to avoid facing them. I could confront her but I know it wouldn’t end well and would result in her throwing it back at me. The one time I did challenge her she just ranted about all the things money spent on me over the years. Like that was enough. She has no interest in bow behaviour makes me feel.

Therapy can be very helpful if you are able to access it. It's highly unlikely your mother will ever be able to face up to her behaviour and the effect it has had on you. You'd be better to focus your emotional energy on your own healing journey.

I have a photograph of my 4-year-old self in my bedroom. I see that sweet little girl and I talk to her and give her the love that she was deprived of. She has me, now. And over my dead body will anyone hurt her like that again. I know it probably sounds weird, but it helps me a lot. Knowing that I am there for her.

My mum knows what she did, and I know that she regrets it bitterly now, but that's her can to carry. I rebuilt a relationship with her, but then my sister morphed into a version of my mother, and it was all so fucked up that I walked away a few years ago. Wished I had done it a lot sooner.