March 2021 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[Sicario]

It's now March 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4030633-September-2020-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=40

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I’ve unlocked a few memories about my DM since posing here the other week. Her default setting is sulky and passive aggressive with the occasional out of proportion screechy and explosive outburst which occurs once in a blue moon. My parents very rarely argued or even disagrees, but I believe this was because my DM actively pandered to DF to avoid conflict. Not that DF is a bad man, but because she didn’t want to handle the emotions that come with having a row with with your other half and the more I think about it the more I think it’s odd and unhealthy. Arguments are normal aren’t they?

I can remember one of the rare times DM and I ‘argued’ over a kitchen knife. It was so ridiculous, almost laughable really and more of a disagreement than a row, but DM walked off and stood in front of the window with her back to me and just ignored me. She wasn’t prepared to discuss it anymore but instead of saying so she walked off and turned her back to me. Another time a rare argument with DF she walked away from him and stood in a corner in the kitchen with her back to him. The more I think of this the more I think her behaviour is really odd.

I also used to school refuse as a child and one day had a meltdown outside my school because I didn’t want to go and she lost it, thumped me in the back and called me a ‘little bitch’. I was about eight years old. Who even does that? Calls an eight year old a bitch?

Cecile, I'm sorry to hear you're still stuck at your parents, putting up with their shit. What happened to your old flat?
You absolutely CAN get away from them, your father's response seems more like a threat and just another way of trying to control you. He's certainly not helping you.
Have you now got your handbag, keys back etc so you can at least leave the house?
My only advice would be to get yourself a rental place asap and tell no-one where it is...and then block them like you said. But do it all in secret.
These people will never, ever treat you the way you deserve. It's such a huge vicious circle.

Also, you mentioned a while back your mother calling your bosses at work...do they actually engage with her? Have you spoken to them about her? I think they should tell her they do not discuss the private lives of staff with anyone!
Sending you a big hug x

@Cactus1982 you're right, some of that behaviour is odd and lots of it is downright unacceptable. I'm not sure about "arguments are normal" because that sentence is used a lot in my family to justify the abnormal and frightening, but disagreements are definitely normal. Massive rows or an absence of rows to be replaced with passive aggressive sulking, that is definitely not normal, and neither is it normal if family members are too afraid to disagree.
As to being called a little bitch as an eight-year-old, that's absolutely vile. I had this exact conversation with my therapist yesterday - she was talking about children being "perfectly imperfect" and sometimes they are loud, annoying or disobedient. A good parent apparently gives children guidance and tells them off where necessary, so that they learn to behave appropriately. Calling a child a bitch because she doesn't want to go to school is awful.

@CantTrampoline thanks for your reply! I gave up the old flat because my family convinced me it would be bad for me to be far away and in a "triggering location" which is funny because this is the most triggering place I can be, with someone who is actually drinking and lying about it to boot, but I never expected consistency to be honest. Hopefully we have settled on the solution of moving my stuff to their place in Cambridge and once I'm in situ there I can sort out another move and hopefully avoid massive rows/it getting physical/having to convince them I can live alone which will never happen/having to justify that I can pay for things.
Thinking about it, my dad's response to me not wanting my mum in my life is "well, if you don't want to talk to her she will harass you on every method of communication she can think of and bully and intimidate other family members so they won't want to talk to you either". I always want to ask him whether he would be saying that about a violent husband behaving the same way, but the other half of his argument is that I have a moral duty to speak to my mother and it is mean and wrong for me not to.
Yesterday night after a week of silent treatment from my mum, following the row she manufactured and apparently a day of bickering with my dad, we sat down to dinner and laughed and joked as if nothing had happened. My mum made no reference to her behaviour and forget apologies. It is downright weird and quite scary, honestly, and if any of us do anything she considers wrong it gets brought up for the rest of time, so another reference to double standards. I'm so tired of being here but apparently the next place will be ready for my stuff to start going there on Wednesday. Let's see if I can convince them to let me borrow the car to move my own stuff (I have offered to pay for it, pay for extra insurance, etc. but they don't want to let me drive it alone because without someone shouting at me I would crash it immediately of course).

Thanks @MonkeyfromManchester as well. Best wishes for everyone's weekend.

@CeciledeVolanges how soon can you get out of there? Get AA or some other sobriety support in place, find somewhere to go and move after staying in Cambridge. It’s abuse and if it was a partner you’d be advised to leave. If you haven’t got the cash for a deposit, would your GM help? Even if it was a flat / house share it would get you out from their influence. You can start again. Your mother will ramp up the abuse before you go. But lots of support here. A man after a van would be the solution. You don’t need the car. Find a solution of your own.

@Cactus1982 awful. That’s emotional abuse.

So, after the Hag being horrible, she (predictably) turned on the “poor old me” act with Mr Monkey. It’s the same old act. She phones at 6 when MM normally rings HER. She’s taking charge of the narrative.

Whimpering voice.
I’m so lonely, I don’t see anyone.
MM: you can ring people, you have choices. Remember when we rang John and had a lovely chat?
Who’s John (the husband of our neighbour who she was asking after yesterday morning: convenient memory loss)
I just want my old life back.
MM: we all do.
I just watch TV, there’s nothing to do.
MM: we could get you library books
Did Monkey say to you that we had a row, she said I always cause arguments? (Starting the blame game...)
MM: no, she’s been busy all day working (he knows as he saw me shaking when I came in. I’ve also started to ring BIL after encounters at her flat so he knows and knows that I find it unacceptable and to set the story straight. He knows but why the fuck he does nothing about it is beyond me)
I never start rows. It’s everyone else doing it to me. Everyone picks on me. (She’s ramping it up to start a row)
MM: I can see we’re heading for an argument. I think if you had other things to do you wouldn’t stew on things.
I haven’t got anything to do, I’m lonely (angling to come back here)
I think I’m getting dementia.
MM: then you need to go to the memory clinic like the doctor suggested but TBH they will probably suggest you do things like reading and seeing people.
Utterly pathetic voice: I’ll go now as you’re probably busy.
MM: yes, we’ve got dinner cooking.
I can hardly eat at the moment.
Hint at tears.

She rings back five minutes later on some ridiculous premise and to have a subtle dig and to see if he’s going to say: oh I know why don’t toy come and stay here again.
He doesn’t.

We have a lovely evening. I’m in my bed luxuriousating reading the paper and listening to Radio 3. She is NOT taking this away from me by coming back here.

She’s soooooo manipulative. MM can see it now.

Depending on whether we can see my mum in the garden (she is brisk with the Hag and sees the nonsense we put up with) at Easter we may have the Hag over (I can see how conflicted MM is sometimes about his mum) for lunch or if we have to have her over solo, it’s a strictly time limited affair. The Hag always feels weird (even more than usual) when my mum is there, envious, too of the life my mum has made (my dad died when my mum was only 61) but The Hag prefers to revel in her hard, hard life.

Two weeks away from Easter. And I think I can gird my loins.

Then there’s a nice gap to May Bank Holiday weekend.

Ffs, these SHIT parents. Total nightmare.

She will revert to aggressive today as we’ve not capitulated to her desires.

@MonkeyfromManchester I have cash, that's not the problem - it's the possibility of them being aggressive or obstructing me physically if I wanted to move out. I have got AA and sobriety support in place, luckily. I freely admit there is a huge role for learned helplessness here and the fact that I can see that hasn't meant that I've got past it yet. The fact that my last attempt at NC didn't work hasn't helped, really. It just doesn't feel like a world without them in it, away from them, exists or can exist at this point. That's behind a lot of my self-sabotage, really.

cecile I love that! Children being perfectly ‘imperfect’. That’s so true. I work with kids now and even the well behaved ones have their moments. It’s totally normal! My DM has always said that she wished DB and I could have stayed babies forever, because ‘babies are easier’. What I now realise is that babies are totally helpless and dependent on their caregivers, they also can’t talk and don’t challenge their parents in anyway.

@CeciledeVolanges
Can you get counselling to help you move beyond it? A world without them does/can exist. Try to get to that house.

Yep, as I thought, AGGRESSION and ANGER when MM had to take her shopping over today. I didn’t cross the threshold of her lair.

I sat on a bench and FaceTimed my family. All jolly and lovely. I can’t believe I won’t see my family in The Netherlands til the winter or possibly not at all.Feel bad for my mum and other granny not seeing their grandchildren but I don’t hear them moan, But there’s nothing to be done and no point dwelling on it. The Hag never asks as the world revolves around her.

Lovely SIL has had a cancer scare - she’s just a positive person and gets on with her life. - Hag hasn’t asked how she is since and, of course, made it about her at the time. I think back to last year when the Hag had a cancer scare and did the whole drama thing of “should I tell your mum or should you do it” as my mum was coming round. Er, you should do it as I’m not doing fucking “Steel Magnolias” in my front room with you creating drama and soaking up sympathy. Mum was upbeat “well, you’ve not had any tests”. “I just know it will be cancer, you don’t understand. It wasn’t cancer”. She put MM and BIL through hell during that.

She catastrophes everything and imagined her grandsons (who she never rings) as orphans FFS. “Well, you two would have to take them on”. Of course, we would.

Mr Monkey bore the brunt of the visit. No eye contact (deliberate and designed for massive guilt - he doesn’t feel guilty), moaning at how terrible her life is, complaining about the carers, and “I suppose you’ve got to go back to HER”.

She can just FUCK OFF. I’m too nice for my own good and was considering a quick brunch with her here on the Saturday of her vaccine. Then I punched myself in the face and woke the fuck up.

@MonkeyfromManchester "I punched myself in the face and woke the fuck up" did make me smile a little bit, as long as it was just a metaphorical punch though! It can be so hard to remember the horrible side of them when they are nice for two seconds though.

So many of what's been said here in the past 2 days has struck so many chords with me, including being called a 'bitch' - I'm late 40's and can swear like a trooper but I've never called anyone that word; I can't even bring myself to say it out loud and in fact, when I read it on the post, my stomach actually turned over - it has a visceral affect on me.

I wonder, should we ever conduct a crazy social experiment, what would happen if we put all these people in the same room for a few hours.

*so much!!

Aahhh pressed too soon.

One of my regular memories is of her, punching me with a closed fist, and hissing 'you bitch' at me.

One of my memories flashed back when I read these last few posts, is of her walking away down the stairs and calling me a bitch and leaving me really confused. I remember the deco of this particular house so it puts me at about 7 years of age.

@BlackAlys I’m really, really sorry if my remark triggered you. You poor, poor thing. No child should have that happen to them. I’m very sorry for what happened to you. Maybe, counselling could be a good thing as when the door opens to these memories it’s a very hard process and needs support. Big hug to you. Xxx

Oh @MonkeyfromManchester no - absolutely no need to apologise. You haven't done anything wrong! 

These things have to be faced and I cannot think of a better place than here at the moment. So many feelings are floating to the surface now and there's no putting them back. I've always 'forgotten' what she (and my brother) are like for the sake of 'getting on' and 'keeping the peace' (I'm a natural peacemaker) - put the truth and my feelings away - shelved - so that we can maintain a relationship

Recent events over lockdown have proven to be a catalyst and I'm now finished with being a scapegoat. I'm tired of jumping through emotional hoops just to keep the narcs happy and at bay. I know anger isn't healthy for me so I'll take the advice of Attila, you and the others to seek professional help eventually, but for now, I'm channelling it as a means of self-defence; to keep myself in check; to remind me that I cannot and should not let them in again.

Love to you @MonkeyfromManchester and to everyone on this board.

Thank you. Love right back to you. This board is fantastic for support. Anger can be a positive emotion when you understand where it's from, it's often the doorway to healing. X

Had a bit of a sob reading that, Monkey

@BlackAlys My mum used to beat shit out of me too. It's unbelievable when you think about it, isn't it? I too am totally done. For my family of origin, my going NC has been met with incredulity. The loss of the family scapegoat is inexplicable to them.

@CeciledeVolanges Is it possible for you to not give them your new address? The final piece of my NC was to move away and not share my address. Again, this has been met with incredulity, but of course the scapegoat is blamed for everything and anything, so that was to be expected.

I didn't want any more of the passive-aggressive shit turning up in the post from my narc sister. (I'm using narc as shorthand. I don't know if she's a narc. I do know that there is something horrifically disordered about her behaviour and thinking.)

My mum, pretty sure not a narc, but so deeply unhappy with her life that she lashed out and hated everything about being a mother in a shitty situation. She married my dad because she got pregnant. Then didn't use contraception (catholic) and ended up with 4 kids she couldn't cope with. It was a fucking travesty.

@MonkeyfromManchester By the way, let the Hag find someone else to wash her hair. Or stick a spray can of Bastiste in with her shopping.

@BlackAlys hugs to you. You will get through to the other side.

@Sicario you are one strong woman for going NC. Those kinds of family dynamics make the sane one look like the weirdo. The realisation that you’re not and it’s the rest who are 100% batshit and NASTY with it is hugely liberating, I imagine.

Now the Hag’s modus operandi is fully in the open to me since her big fat holiday with us across 2021/2021 EVERYTHING has dropped into place for me. I never especially liked her but I couldn’t put my finger on the issues. I can now. Very empowering.

Yeah, a pallet of batiste on its way to Hag Towers.

MM: so what are the carers doing for you?
Hag: I’m managing most of it myself. They asked about my hair but Monkey’s going to do that.

Nah, Monkey is NOT going to be doing that as I’ve got no desire to be enmeshed with you in some weird dragging Monkey back into fucked up Hag universe trip or in close proximity so...

ouch..my bad back has flared up - I can’t be bending down - and someone else is going to have to do it. Either a trained Carer or Mr Monkey. NOT ME.

👌

Hello, I'm new here. I posted this thread and someone recommended this page to me... it's tricky for me, I thought my childhood was good but the cracks started to show when I started to grow up and things are now very difficult with me and my mum. I made the choice to cut my brother out of my life a few years ago.

This is a long story and I'm feeling quite hurt at the moment. There are some sensitive things regarding sexual abuse in this thread so please do not continue to read on if this may trigger something for you.

The older I am getting the more strained the relationship I have with my mother is getting.

Although my mum has been controlling throughout my life I think I had a good childhood and I believe I was raised well, my dad's side of the family is large and I had lots of cousins to play with. I was happy. As I started getting older I stopped seeing my extended family and never realised why but looking back I remember my mum telling me that they weren't my real family and the family was me, my mum and brother and that's all that matters. My dad wasn't included in this even though he has always been there. My mum and dad live together but are not married. I found out a few years ago my dad isn't on my birth certificate, i asked about this and it was so that 'nobody could take me away from her if something were to happen.' I felt sad that my birth certificate said father unknown, even though my dad has been there all my life, supported and nurtured me even to this day.

My mum never had her own biological family, she had been through the care system.

I never really got along with my brother, we are complete opposites. I always found him selfish and thought he put an act on for being nice when deep down he wasn't, he used to make up lies about me so I would get told off and he would look like the golden child. He was very clingy to my mum even when they got older and they would go on holiday together, just him and her without my dad and he was in his 30's...still living at home having his meals cooked for him and laundry washed etc, he wouldn't go away with his friends and would always choose to spend time with my mum instead. day trips, holidays, meals out, cinema, watching TV etc. I thought this was odd?!?

Despite being younger, I have moved out, had a successful job, had friends, boyfriends etc and was very independent. I travelled the world and my mum said I always fall in roses. My mum would always criticise my boyfriends though, she would also tell me to stay single, never get Married, don't rely on a man and be a single parent.

My mum used to say I was her sunshine and my brother was her soul mate...

One day I had a call from my mum, she came home from work to find the home being searched by the police, they had barged the door down and also barged the back garden gate down to enter the home, they seized my brothers computer and arrested him whilst he was in work. He wasn't allowed bail, he stayed in custody until sentenced to 1 year + in prison. His crime was to do with indecent images of children but I don't know any more information other than this is serious. He asked my mum not to attend court so she does not know the full details etc.

I stopped talking to my brother and we've never spoken since. I cannot be OK with someone that can hurt someone so innocent. Plus I am a nurse and I just can't have this in my life. My mum and dad continued to support him and would visit him in prison. My mum would tell me she hates him but she could never abandon her child. She would support me if I murdered someone... I understand this and accept it. He told her the reason he did his crimes were because he was stressed??? Really? I told her I thought he was manipulative and told her about the lies etc he would say about me and she said she can see it all now.

My mum then told me that she was in a children's home as a child and went into Foster care, the family sexually abused her and it was in the papers etc. She has had a very traumatic childhood and I can't even imagine how she feels knowing this happened to her and then her son is in prison for crimes against children.

Things were going OK with our relationship, my mum would talk to me about her worries with my brother etc and I would support her... I still felt he manipulated her as he would ring her and tell her he had been to hospital for tests or he had a bad stomach etc and she would then worry. I do remember one occasion though where I became really upset. She was telling me not to turn my back on him because of his crimes and I just had to be civil because when he dies I would then have his inheritance... The family home. I couldn't understand that way of thinking and I felt sick at the thought of it.

Then the time came for his release and he moved back home with them. Since this a distance has grown between me and my mum. I have no intentions of speaking to my brother ever again but she doesn't understand this.

She has started to become annoyed with every milestone I have hit since...

My boyfriend of 5 years moved in with me, she then stopped visiting me for the weekends like she used to and would not stay over even though we had a 3 bedroom home and a guest room. She wouldn't see me as much as she used to and speaking to her felt very forced.

1 year later I got engaged, my mum didn't congratulate me, wouldn't acknowledge I was getting married, told me I was making a mistake and by getting married, my husband would be entitled to my posessions etc. She stopped talking to me. I still sent her a wedding invite as I wanted her in my life but had no idea how it would go. My mother in law stepped up and she helped me plan the wedding, she helped with my dress etc and did everything I wish I had my own mother do. I hired a Manor home for the weekend and invited all the guests to stay with us (I paid for it all it was a small intimate wedding) but my mum refused to stay and sorted her own accommodation. The big day came and my mum and dad were there, my mum looked bitter throughout and she didn't stay long and left early. She wouldn't speak to my husband on the day. I had no congratulations card from her, only one from my dad. I felt sad about it all.

Time passed, my birthday and Christmas passed with no contact and no cards or gifts from mum. Just my dad only. I continued to send cards and gifts to her for occasions.

Then covid came and she started speaking to me again, she was worried I may get unwell or something. We started speaking again, things were improving, but she still made digs, eg: I didn't offer to do any food shopping for her when people were panic buying (I live 1.5hr drive away) also we were in lockdown and I couldn't. She's fully independent, has a car and my brother still lives there too!! He could go shopping for her?? She made a dig that I haven't seen her, again we are in lockdown so I can't but also I don't want to see my brother...

1 year of covid and me and my husband moved home, my mum was speaking to both of us and things were going well, she seemed happy for us moving home and we even had a congratulations card and a housewarming gift. We had only manged to see both our families once in the year because of lockdowns etc as they live far away from us.

Last week I broke the news I was pregnant, I sent a personalised card with the baby scan to my mum. She messaged me congratulations and how I was feeling etc. New home new baby she had a feeling this was coming. She then asked about my mother in law and suddenly turned and said 'you can't even speak to your own mother', 'I give up', 'it's like your wedding all over again', '2 years and you have been to my house once', 'I can see how this is going to end', - referring to her belief I will push her out and take my mother in law instead.

I asked her to stop, that she was upsetting me and I just want her to be happy for me, I want her to be part of the baby's life etc.

She has now stopped talking to me again.

This hot and cold absolutely breaks my heart and its really upsetting me. I keep worrying that I'm a horrible person and I do things wrong but my husband tells me it isn't me that's in the wrong. I worry about the future and all I want is things to be normal but they never will be. I look at my friends relationships with their mums and it makes me sad that I don't have that. It seems everything I do is wrong. 😔

I also feel sad for the traumatic life my mother has had and how her fears and insecurities are showing and being directed on to me and how my brother who she still supports because he is her child has in my eyes hurt her in the worst way possible but still... I am the villan.

Has anyone got any advice on dealing specifically with guilt?

I think this is one of the emotions I've never been able to deal with - I know that guilt is used as a manipulation tool, to get what she wants.

However I'm feeling guilty because of my actions. I'm aware that the amount of sentiment she places on certain things is (I think) abnormal, in this case, cards - so not giving her a Mother's Day card has upset her (even though I wrote it but never took it).

It feels like I've done this on purpose because it will and has hurt her. But really due to everything I still just feel like I said before, a rabbit in headlights. But it is my fault, and the guilt ridden messages are getting to me. Telling me how much she's cried about this etc.

The card (and small gift that would never be enough anyway) has sat on the side for a week now. But I've just not brought myself to drop it off as I still don't want to see her. I don't even want to communicate with her any more - because as I said before, giving her the card may as well be a written invite to continue with the forever cycle of our broken relationship.

But this inbuilt guilt seems to be eating me up.

@Magdoo

I've just read through your post. I can't offer any advice on the situation regarding your brother - thankfully I have no siblings to make my situation worse. It sounds like your mother likes the fact that he is so reliant / dependent on her still, when you are not and have become independent- she probably doesn't like that.

A few things you said sound similar to my relationship with my mother. She also didn't have her biological family growing up and issues around adoption, although nothing to do with sexual abuse that I'm aware of. I've always felt sad for her about her own past, and like somehow I need to be the one that is responsible for keeping her happy now.

She's always encouraged me to stay single / disliked most boyfriends and said I always fall on roses too. She has a severe complex about my relationship with my mother-in-law, always saying that I choose her or talk to her more. They have never met and I manage that relationship so that they don't. It would be a living nightmare for me if they met.

The hot and cold situation - for my relationship it's like a clock, when it strikes 12 there's another incident of her kicking off about something or going cold / negative comments / I've somehow done something wrong (not done enough, not communicated enough etc), I just never know how long the clock will take to reach 12 again. This has gone on for the whole of my adult life.

Her reaction to your pregnancy is almost exactly the same as my mothers to mine. This is also a time when I feel it is even worse for her to decide to act the way she is with you, pregnancy is an emotional time anyway.

You are not a horrible person and you are not doing anything wrong.

I have previously been to a counsellor for an extended time to work through quite a lot of our relationship, however I am still working through many things - hence my last post about dealing with guilt. But I would encourage you to speak with someone professional as they can help. I found it incredibly helpful even just to talk to someone external, but who was able to offer practical strategies to deal with your own reactions.

However I'm still far off being an expert and still grieve (but have to a degree accepted) that I will never have a "normal" relationship with my mother.

Finally, having a baby for me has triggered more of these feelings - I look at my daughter and simply cannot understand how my mother can be the way she is with me. But also know that the relationship makes me a better mum myself. Just perhaps be aware that having your baby might trigger other feelings around your relationship. (Also still dealing with this myself)...

@Magdoo

I'm not sure if my response helps but just want you to know you're not alone, this thread is super helpful for support.

@Magdoo just wanted to add to the voices welcoming you. As others have said I don't have any similar experience as regards your sibling but please stick around, this is such a great place with so many amazing posters.

@OliveBlue I'm not sure if this helps, but I have learned that emotions are there to serve a purpose, and guilt is a socially useful one which enables you to change your behaviour if you've done something wrong. In this case you haven't done anything wrong and your behaviour is self-protective, as you don't want to be involved in that toxic relationship any more, and you definitely aren't doing anything wrong. You're just refusing to acquiesce in the lie that your mother treats you well and that is something to celebrate. I hope that came across properly!

Meanwhile, my mother has started asking me "to think about" her moving to the other house instead of me moving there in two weeks as we've agreed. So she is trying to make me responsible for a) me not going anywhere from here and b) her living apart from my dad. He is tired of it and so am I, and I'm going to persevere with wanting to move there because at least I will be in a separate part of the house, nearer friends and with more independence. She is playing exactly the same game as she always does. Meanwhile my dad has been shouting at me that it's all in my head, that the past isn't doomed to repeat itself (yes, but she is repeating the same old behaviour so that means nothing) and that I'm just like her (my worst fear).

I also saw a friend yesterday whose mother is friends with mine, except apparently my mother is really angry with her because she pointed out that my mother is saying terrible things about me and blaming all the problems on me, while trying to take credit for my younger sister's successes (I recognise that this is the classic scapegoat/golden child thing, but my mum is very underhand with it). It is so depressing knowing that she is controlling all the information like that and spreading nasty lies - they will be lies - about me, but I've just got to get away and get separated from her and this time the NC will be watertight and permanent. Very tiring and depressing.

Thank you for your kind words all.

I'm suprised to read that people have similar stories and it's reassuring to hear I'm not the only one in this difficult situation. As horrible as it may be for all who experience family relation difficulties. Counselling is something I am thinking about but it may take a bit of time for me to get the confidence to do this, I'm terrible for bottle up my emotions and not talking about how I feel which is something I think I have grown up with and been taught to hide emotion. The crazy thing is I'm a mental health nurse (so is my husband!). I need to practice what I preach. Seeing people who have been effected by abuse in mental health services makes me so angry towards my brother but also guilty that I'm related to him, because I'm trying to help the people who experience this hossible abuse and yet I'm related to someone who could inflict this pain on someone.

I can completely understand my mother's behaviour and break it down as to why she behaves this way which is due to all her childhood traumas. Its just horrible to be on the receiving end of it all and to also know my mum would benefit from seeing a psychologist to deal with her past that she projects onto me... But saying that to her I would be throwing myself into lava as she doesn't trust health professionals and doesn't believe she has any mental health difficulties.

I have wondered how things will be as my pregnancy progresses and when I become a mother. Thank you for giving me the heads up though as I hadn't thought about how thing may change further.

Hi Magdoo

Its not you, its your mother. She has and continues to make you the scapegoat for her inherent ills; a role you were assigned by her pretty early on in your life. She being in your life at all brings you nothing but anguish and misery; she is the spectre at the feast.

You feel sorry for her because you are a compassionate person with insight and empathy; she fully lacks those qualities. She has shown no compassion or empathy towards you and you are picked up and put down when she feels like this; she is toying with and otherwise testing you and she will blow hot and cold like this for the rest of her days. You need to drop the rope and not take part in her game playing any more. Its not your fault she is like this and you did not make her that way either.

Your mother has also not sought nor perhaps even wanted to seek the necessary help. She was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and she has not fundamentally altered since that time. You do not write all that much about your dad but he seems to have adopted very much a bystander role out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. He has also failed you as your parent here by failing to protect you from the excesses of his wife's behaviours. God only knows what he is getting out of this relationship with your mother his partner but he is getting what he wants out of it as is she. Leave them to their own destructive dance here, have no part in their lives.

re your comment:-
"Although my mum has been controlling throughout my life I think I had a good childhood and I believe I was raised well, my dad's side of the family is large and I had lots of cousins to play with ".

I think your dad's relations showed you what an emotionally healthy family set up is like. And this is also why you seem pretty much rounded as a person now; it was their influence that guided you. You were shown a better example, your parents showed you between them a dysfunctional abusive one. Controlling behaviour like your mother shows you is abusive behaviour rooted in wanting power and control.

Ultimately you are going to have to grieve for the relationship you should have had with mother rather than the one you actually got. I would suggest you find a therapist to work with (BACP registered ones are supposed to be good) and a person at that who has NO familial bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment.

Stop with trying to seek her approval; you are not going to get that so send her nothing else. I would seriously consider keeping both your parents well away from your as yet unborn child too as they could well go onto harm this person in ways not too dissimilar to how you have been harmed.

If your inlaws are nice then I would concentrate on them; you already have nothing to do with your brother now. Your mother will and indeed has backed up her so called "soulmate" to the hilt.

I would suggest you read "Toxic Parents" by Susan Forward and "If you had controlling parents" by Dr Dan Neuharth.

I would also read about cluster B personality disorders in respect of your mother and see how much of that relates to your mother's behaviours to you. Emotionally healthy people do not ever behave like your mother does. And I would think any and all mh difficulties your mother has (she denies this anyway not surprisingly) are tied up in some form of untreated and untreatable personality disorders at its root.

Out of the Fog is also a good website outofthefog.website/