March 2021 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[Sicario]

It's now March 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4030633-September-2020-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=40

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@OliveBlue we have a similar dynamic.

I thank God that my parents divorced 40 years ago. Am
Certain my DF would have died by now had they stayed together. The woman is a bully.

I'm expecting to be hooked in soon, but I'm still simmering underneath my calm exterior. I am utterly sick of the lies, the manipulation, the embellishment of stories, the twisting of facts, the re-writing of history to make her a victim and others (me) the perpetrator. She has accused me of pretty devastating things in a short space of time and, to use a phrase she has used against me all my adult life (for having a good relationship with my DF despite her lies), I will never forgive.

We will turn a corner if she admits her lies and owns all the shit she has stirred.

This, will never happen.

I do think I need to pursue counselling though.

@Ulteregome exactly how I’m feeling about it, wanting to run for the hills!! Im on a newish new build estate and only moved here about 2 years ago. Shes already found a place on the estate. I feel almost pathetic and child like by the fact that my dm will be living next to me. I get she wants to feel safe next to family but the thought of it is making me ill & I already feel like her carer and therapist. She’s like a vampire sucking every ounce of energy and happiness from me. And everything is always about her. Not that I’d want to share anything with her anyway.

I get she wants to feel safe next to family
Lavanderrose, her reasons for moving are all about keeping you under control, do not entertain the idea that there is anything ok about what she is proposing!

I'm glad to see this thread. My MIL is the problem in our family. My DH is currently deployed so any contact falls to me and she is milking it! She's expecting weekly video calls with the DCs (despite the fact that we never speak that often when DH is here), and she's just informed us that she has booked a trip to come and see us in June. She didn't even ask first, and she's booked a hotel. It's in half-term, we don't have anything planned yet but we were hoping to do something nice just us since DH has been away since February and will miss the whole of the Easter hols. I do struggle with boundaries, but I think I have done ok this week. I said no to her request for a video call during the week, I said I will call her when it's convenient to us. I also said we can't commit to seeing her when she comes in half-term as we haven't decided what we are doing yet, and we won't be making any firm plans until DH returns from his deployment.

That was 2 days ago, she has yet to reply so I'm obviously in the bad books. She usually replies within minutes.

That was 2 days ago, she has yet to reply so I'm obviously in the bad books. She usually replies within minutes
sounds like you know how to handle her Scattered! Nice work, keep patrolling those boundaries, do not contact her, luxuriate in those bad books :o
This is your chance to get her back in her lane, I'd suggest making sure you are not around very much at all if she does stick to the hotel plan

@Lavanderrose that sounds like a pretty horrible situation. I wasn't aware of this before but persistently badmouthing your spouse/ex to your children or using them as a weapon or inappropriate means of support is considered to be a form of abuse. It doesn't sound very much like if you do put boundaries in place it will be viewed as an act of aggression, how many people on this thread have families that respect boundaries?

Lavanderrose

Your mother moving to where you live is a further deliberate attempt to keep you under her control. Its certainly not about her wanting to feel safe next to family (is that what she told you?). She will only make you further feel like her therapist and carer; roles that you were assigned by her many years ago.

It is not at all possible to hve any sort of a relationship with someone like your mother. Women like this really cannot do relationships so am not that surprised to read of her divorce.

ScatteredMama

I remember you from previous writings re your MIL. The reason she goes to you is because she cannot contact your H easily if at all; she sees you as the weaker link here therefore easier to try and manipulate. Her booking of the hotel is typical from such disordered types.

Luxuriate in her bad books indeed and certainly do not put yourself and your children in her direct line of fire going forward. And well done you for putting in some boundaries re her like you have done; she will continue to actively rail against those however, because narcs do not like boundaries at all.

You have physical distance already which is great but you really do need more mental distance between you and she as well.

BlackAlys

Would suggest taking a look at the BACP site and see if you can find a therapist on there. You need to find someone who a) has NO familial bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment and b) finding someone who fits in with your approach; therefore the first one you see may not be the right fit.

I've written a Mother's Day card and have it ready to drop off today. Why? I might as well have written an invitation to continue the cycle of sh!* that is our relationship. I don't even want to go to drop it off, why the hell did I write it? What am I doing?

After her mental breakdown yesterday it's clearly got to me even though on the surface I feel flat and worn to nothing by this.

I've contemplated going back to counselling but last time I went I felt that I had exhausted talking about it and didn't know what else I could do or that she could say. Maybe I need a different therapist.

Seriously, what is wrong with me? I don't even want to tell DH that I've written it to drop it off as he will support me but I know what he's really thinking.

She was just in complete hysterics again yesterday. Caused by me. She's mentally broken.

Olive

I'd shred that card now; no good to you will come of she receiving this.

You've been trained to keep loving people who can't love you back, and adult children of narcissists will often tolerate or actively work to maintain connections with narcissistic individuals whom others, lacking the special training, find alienating and repellent from first contact, setting ourselves up to be hurt yet again in the same old way. Once narcissists know that you care for them, they'll suck you dry demand all your time, be more work than a newborn babe and they'll test your love by outrageous demands and power moves. In their world, love is a weakness. They can't or won't trust, so they will test your total devotion. If you won't submit to their tyranny, then you will be discarded as "no good," "a waste of time," "you don't really love me or you'd do whatever I ask," "I give up on you." (Note: In many instances, narcissists' demands are not only outrageous but also impossible to fulfill even if you want to please them. Plus if you actually want to do what they want you to do, that would be too much like sharing, so they won't want it anymore).

If you've had a narcissist for a parent, you are probably not afraid of dying and going to hell -- you have lived hell on Earth. Narcissists cannot be satisfied and do a tremendous amount of damage to their children and partners in their relentless demand for a perfect outer appearance to reflect the perfect inner image that obsesses them.

I would also think that her mental breakdown was more likely some form of narcissistic rage. Such disordered types are good at hysterics and otherwise throwing their toys out; bet she went from 0 to 100 in very short order but immediately calmed down after you had left her. She was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and you probably also remind her of your dad; a man whom she always has hated too.

Do consider finding a therapist and one at that who has no familial bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment. At the very least keep her well away from your child because if your mother is too toxic for you to deal with, its the same deal for your baby too.

You cannot heal your mother nor should you try to do so. She's basically made you her personal scapegoat for all her inherent ills.

@OliveBlue she’s playing mind games. Shred the card - it opens up the cycle again. You owe her nothing. Do something kind for yourself today that cancels out the bad feelings.

I’m back from the Hag’s flat after being there for the installation of the fall alarm.

She put in a number of attempts at jibes at me.
“I’ve only got tea and I know you drink coffee”
“Is Mr Monkey working?”
I’m freelance. My work doesn’t count.
“Sorry that I keep mithering you.”
Fuck off. You’re not sorry. You love the attention.
“Not looking forward to hospital/doctor/vaccine etc etc etc”
“I don’t like my new cooker”
“I can’t be doing with all the comings and goings of the care workers”
“All the work going on around the building”
“Well, this alarm fitter is taking his time”
“I don’t know what I’ll be doing about my shopping today because no one’s got anytime to pick it up today. Luckily, I’ve got things in the fridge”
I IGNORE ALL THE INVITATIONS INTO TOXIC NARC WORLD.
“I’m not sleeping well”
Then proceeds to fall asleep for 10 (joy) minutes until fitter arrives.
Fitter (easy on the eye!) fits the thing in less than 5 minutes. He goes. She is OF COURSE lovely to him.

Then it’s a toxic and unnecessary debate about how we (ME) gets a spare key to the alarm people. It’s a simple case of “I don’t know until I speak to the housing office”

She does not like this simple and logical answer and proceeds to be absolutely fucking vile for no reason but there is someone from her family who are there to be abused stood in front of her. On the phone is good but in person? 💥

I want to scream.
Me: “I don’t know why this has to be a row”
Hag: “I’m not having a row. You are. All I want is a straight answer.”

I leave shaking. I have now decided that washing her hair is off my list of things to do as there's a proximity to water.

Of course, the word “thank you” was never uttered.

Just snorting into my coffee as she missed me hemming her trousers in her catalogue of low level but potential to deeply wound jibes. She will be sitting in the slum right now unable to 100% revel in upsetting me as she forgot to mention the desperate need for my seamstress skills! 👌

@AttilaTheMeerkat @OliveBlue exactly re the meltdowns. I give them no credibility. The set of emotions the narcs show to different people and to what end are never consistent.

@MonkeyfromManchester I'm sorry, that sounds pretty horrible, and so soon after you gained a bit more freedom after she left your house. Everything she said is so negative, I'm sure it can't be pleasant to live your life like that, but can't really sympathise as they never seem to try to be more optimistic or positive.
What she said about you wanting a row is also very familiar. My own mother picked a fight, wouldn't let me leave the conversation (and has a history of backing this up with physical actions to prevent me leaving the room), told me several times she was getting "a kicking" from me even though I was refusing to say anything derogatory about her or admit living with her is bad for me, etc., and funnily enough the one who is shaking and in tears after this is me, not her. On the plus side she is now giving me the silent treatment and avoiding me, which is fantastic. I really want to be out of here before she decides she's "forgiven" me!

Thank you for responses..

I agree it's a mind game but I don't think she knows she's doing it. I think she's so delusional that is her reality. I feel sorry for her which is part of the problem. It's the way she's been her whole life so is normal to her.

I've gone into stall mode today. I'm like a rabbit in headlights and therefore have done nothing.

@OliveBlue this is a stressful and maybe even traumatic situation for you and that can provoke a freeze response (we are all used to hearing fight or flight, but the full version is actually flight/fight/freeze/fawn). I know I definitely get paralysed with fear in response to stressful situations and ended up coming to a complete halt in the middle of a motorway roundabout as a result last week! But that's a different story. It's not your fault this is horrible and there's nothing "wrong" with your response either.
I've never been sure about the term "mind game" because I bet your mother isn't setting out to carry out a strategy with deliberate intentions, or anything. It's a behaviour or set of behaviours she has successfully used in the past to get a response which is rewarding to her. I don't think the fact that it's normal for her or that she may not know exactly what she's doing is any reason for you to continue to suffer it or be exposed to it. Actually, I rather think it's a reason to get away from it and protect yourself. I am not proud of myself at all, but having been brought up in a fairly isolated way under my mother's control and influence, I have in the past found myself echoing her behaviours. Because I care about my effect on other people, don't want to hurt anyone and have a degree of compassion and empathy she totally lacks, I do tend to be aware that I've done something hurtful and wrong and put a lot of effort into changing my behaviour in the future. It's the difference between looking at your children and thinking "I had to go through xyz and so should they" and looking at your children and thinking "I want a better life for them".

Narcissists typically act upon their emotions, which are greatly stunted. They have very low emotional intelligence and never developed any form of emotional resilience. This partly explains why they can appear loving and caring one minute, yet seem to hate you the next. This generally happens when they’ve experienced a narcissistic injury, which is evident in their tendency to snap at the most innocent of comments or questions.

Many narcissists, at some point or other, do become aware of the effect their behaviours have on other people, but they are completely indifferent to it. Your mother knows but she does not care. Do not forget either narcissists have no empathy whatsoever.

You absolutely need to protect yourself and your own family from your mother.

@MonkeyfromManchester I hope that now the Hag is back in her hovel that you will be able to wash your hands of her and never be in her presence again.

@CeciledeVolanges thank you. I hope you’re out of that dreadful situation soon. Your mother absolutely thrives on drama. And yes, it’s the normal people who end up feeling drained and dreadful after one of their emotional outbursts. They’ve put their rage somewhere so they’re OK. She sounds like a total nutcase.

@OliveBlue keep strong. They tend to up the ante when they feel you’re slipping through their fingers. Yes, it is her reality but it’s a poisonous one and it doesn’t have to be the one you live by. Don’t feel bad about having days when you can’t cope. We all have the same.

I’ve managed to do some work and then I’ve retreated to lie on MY BED and reclaimed the blanket that she had requisitioned during her sojourn at Hotel Monkey. I’ve sprayed it with Coco Chanel. 😆

I noticed this morning chez Hag that she’s moving round the slum rather speedily without wincing in pain at the slightest movement as she was here and was not making any guttural sounds of anguish. She was nursing a cup of tea and there was no evidence of the tea fairy there. She’s a Fucking imposter. It’s laughable.

I am now even more clued up and have briefed Mr Monkey on my latest observation of Fuckedupness.

Wine at 6. Cooked a huge lasagne which I will eat with relish where and how I want without some toxic hag glowering across the table from me.

Ladies, like the song says, we have the power. It’s just very hard to find it sometimes. This is a great place to find solace, to compare notes, to realise it’s not you, to laugh and to plan for the life we deserve. Thanks for being total bricks. Mwah. X

@Sicario My hands are getting cleaner and cleaner by the day. I have to deal with the social worker stuff because I’m organised and like a dog with a bone.

I’ve told MM that never again will I deal with her.

BIL and MM are having a conference this weekend to sort out POA.

i may need to walk her shopping round but it’s getting dumped at the lair’s entrance as I did last year. I may need to wash her hair but that will involve MM being there with me at her flat as I may combust with disgust at being near to her slash - -drown her - - not doing it every week, for sure, and at my convenience. I can probably hand this duty over to MM ASAP. I want the bitch to know that I want very little to do with her.

June is when we hand her back to BIL. He doesn’t fight back. His choice to be a punchbag.

Last night she got the 6-45pm call from MM and she signed off with a cheery “so you don’t want to talk to me then” Not a lot to say: you moan or pick arguments over sweet FA.

After this call she rang BIL for toxic showdown over BIL being in his home office on his office chair. Yep, she had a row about this as he probably didn’t want to talk to her for long whereas on his more comfortable sofa he could stay talking to her fir longer. FFS.

Office chair probably reminds of what a dreadful son MM was by continuing to work when she was squatting at ours. Properly fucking mental. And I’m the one with bipolar 😹😹😹😹

@AttilaTheMeerkat

BlackAlys

Would suggest taking a look at the BACP site and see if you can find a therapist on there. You need to find someone who a) has NO familial bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment and b) finding someone who fits in with your approach; therefore the first one you see may not be the right fit.

Thanks Attila. I really appreciate this link.

Thanks @MonkeyfromManchester. I've had two conversations since that post: the first with my therapist, who said "I can see from your situation why you drink" and advised me to get out of it ASAP because "your mother is not a well woman and your dad is completely codependent with him". She encouraged me to keep saying things like "it's not your business" when my mum asks things which aren't my business and to keep my boundaries in place, and to keep using affirmations and similar things, so that was quite positive. The one thing she did say was that if I didn't want to have a conversation with her I should walk away and close my door which is like a red rag to a bull with her and I'm not strong enough to keep her on the other side of a closed door she wants to open, but fingers crossed this won't be the situation for too much longer.

Then conversation with my dad who has been "arguing on my behalf" all day. He acknowledges that my mum has a bad habit of giving gifts or concessions and then taking them away when she gets moody but said that was "in the past" and the fact that she had been violent around times I had tried to move out was "historical". He then basically said I would find it impossible ever to cut contact with her and that we would have to convince her to let me move to this place (couple of rooms in their second house which is otherwise a building site). Bear in mind that the arrangement was that I would be moving in there at the end of January. He also said that based on the fact that I had long-term mental health issues which didn't go away overnight when I moved out before - the fact that my mum generally manufactures a massive row, a period of tearful silent treatment, and pushes me onto the ground hasn't helped in the past, to be fair - I couldn't argue that it would be better for me not to be living in the same house as her.

I am quite tired here. From my point of view I just want to get out of here, paying rent to someone who doesn't control me for a door I can shut, at which point I can change my phone number, block her from all my email accounts and have some peace and quiet to concentrate on my recovery and studying. As an adult woman with a full-time job in my late twenties I really think I should just be able to do that. I also think that these people are harming me not helping me and I just want to break the cycle of constantly being thrown back to them when the toll they have taken on my mental stability gets to crisis point, as has been the dreadful cycle in the past. My dad maintains that it would be terrible if I didn't reach out for help and support, and that I won't ever be able to cut my mum out of my life properly anyway. That idea just makes me feel sick - wherever I go, she's going to find me, if I want to keep in touch with family members she will put pressure on them not to talk to me if I won't talk to her, she will call my work, be around my house, probably follow me from university to university. When she was goading me the other night she asked me why I didn't go to the police if her behaviour was harassment and honestly I want to play fair by not blocking her, by not going to the police, by not talking to her superiors at university if I have to, by not telling the truth about her to other family members, by not saying to her directly what I feel about her and want for the future. Part of that is fear and part of it is not wanting to play the game and a big part of it is because all of those feel like horrible and aggressive things to do, which would probably rip the family apart due to her reaction. But I might have to in the future. Hard to accept :( sorry for the whinge, again.

@CeciledeVolanges big hug. Will reply properly tomorrow. You gotta remember it's THEM not YOU. X