March 2021 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[Sicario]

It's now March 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4030633-September-2020-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=40

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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@openwaterswimming

I literally posted a few days ago saying that my own mother "has no one else but me" and that is sadly because she's put herself into this position, and I'm the only one nice enough / conditioned enough to have stuck around. When I actually list all the mean things she's done and said, it's unbelievable really. My childhood was certainly not as difficult as yours sounds, but some other aspects ring true. Like the fact that she sees herself as hard done by and the world owes her something. Even with truth in being a victim, has she sought professional help ever, or support to improve herself? I'm assuming not..

The fact that your early memories are of being worried about your mother is deeply sad, when I went to counselling I learnt that we still have an "internal child", whom still carries heavily those experiences from childhood. Of course she will have zero understanding of this and neither does my mother. You need to try to protect your inner child, I practiced visualising myself as a child and before engaging with my mother, visually imagining leaving myself as a child at home in safety, so when you engage with her you remember that you are indeed the adult in the relationship and she is the child - if that makes any sense. Not sure the type of visual therapy I did would work for everyone.

In terms of the pressure to care for her, firstly your sister is telling you what you should do, but what does she do? Sounds like she's pressuring you because she doesn't want the burden? Or perhaps more likely she has some of the same "qualities" that your mum has...

You feel guilty about not wanting to care for her because you are a nice person. And because in a "normal" mother daughter relationship you would probably actually enjoy spending time with her / talking to her etc. Friends will make comments like you mention, but they are likely blind to any of the truth of the relationship, so take this with a pinch of salt. My mother is also not that elderly but has poor health, she has literally said to me, "you're my daughter and should look after me" ... "like my friends daughters do" ... HA, just like she did with her own mother (whom she treated awfully for years) and had no contact with herself for years, culminating in her passing and not going to her funeral.

It is so difficult. I'm not sure I have the answers as I'm also new here. However it certainly sounds like you have more external pressures than I do from other people, and I can see how wearing that must be. Ultimately she wasn't there for you as a child - but the ingrained expectation that you'll be there for her as an ageing individual is sadly a combination of societal pressure / norms and your own conditioning. Breaking that isn't easy, I know this too well. We live in a society where services do care for people who can't or aren't able, remember that the services are there, you have your own life and sounds like you need to break this cycle. (Something I'm currently attempting, again...)

@MonkeyfromManchester hurrah! Hope you celebrated with that champers.

I can never go through this again.

The constant phone calls have started again. This is what was happening pre hospital visit and convalescent care at Hotel Monkey. It’s not so much the frequency of calls but the spleen.

I have sorted the pendant alarm thing. It arrives on Friday. I will go to her flat and get it sorted. MM has a weird working day on a Friday so I have to do it. I will get out as soon as I can.

We have incoming trouser gate. I bought her trousers. Her clothes are in a shocking state. The trousers are the right size but too long.

Yesterday’s attempt at a guilt trip when we were leaving was “when will you do the trousers?”
“I can do them on Friday. I will pin them and use tape.”
“I thought you were going to sew them. If it’s tape, I can do that.”

With a broken Fucking arm? Be my fucking guest.

If she wants them sewn, I could do that but I was actually banned from my sewing class at school...

Trying to get a straight answer about if this happens again from social services. Basically, I can NEVER have her here in this house again. But they’re a bit vague...

MM discussed with his brother that we can never do this ever again and described what we had to put up with. BIL says this is normal and he’s put up with it for years. TBH, I think they should have cut ties years ago. She’s absolutely Fucking toxic. I can see how we’ve been lined up to replace disabled brother in law.

If anyone is wrestling with feeling pressure to care for a toxic parent, don’t acquiesce to it. They don’t deserve it. DO NOT DO IT.

Off to fold up the camp bed. The night of sleep in my own bed with cost a fucking fortune gift to myself 2 million thread sheets last night was a joy.

I really feel for you @MonkeyfromManchester

Social services will be vague and the only route is to point blank refuse. I once walked into a situation where I was expected to take a family member home with me. I was completely hijacked and had no inkling before arriving. It had all been planned (by my sister) without telling me. The nurse demanded to know why I couldn't, and it turned into a massive shit show.

Saying no is the only way.

@Sicario that’s very useful to know. I think I’ll be able to say this with a LOT of vehemence. That is awful behaviour from your sister. Presumably, she had pressing reasons not to help?

MM is on the phone. She’s guilt tripping him with the whiney miserable voice.

Current battle is eye drops. The carers put them in for her but she doesn’t see why she should have them at 6 (the last call) when that’s not her bedtime. We agreed it yesterday WITH MEDICAL ADVICE.

Alarm pendent thing is getting installed on Friday, I’m going over.
“Why does Monkey have to come over?”
So gracious. That wasn’t about my need to go over, just I’m not the right person (although I’m tech savvy)
Jesus, why won’t she just FUCK OFF.

Lovely cousins sent me flowers. So many good and kind people in my family. Just not on MM’s.

I too had an alarm system installed at DM's house but she refused to use it. It was like banging my head against a brick wall about every single thing.

Monkey

So sorry but not altogether surprised to see the Hag being difficult and toxic again, those are her default setting after all.

I do not personally think she will get on at all with the carers or this pendant - I presume one of you is one of the contacts named for this. Ultimately I would start looking at care homes for her and sooner rather than later.

@AttilaTheMeerkat the thing with The Hag is she’s as nice as pie to those people in “authority” so she will be fine with the Carers and not moan. So, we get the shit. I’m going over for the pendant on Friday but I’m out of there straight away when it’s fitted. It’s then her choice to wear it. Past caring. MM can deal with that.

She’s able to manage in the slum. It’s bigger than our place and because she’s too mean to buy furniture she’s got a load of carpet space.

She was given the option of sheltered accommodation last year but refused it. 2 mins walk from the slum. Hairdressers, carers, cafe, little shop onsite it’s BEAUTIFUL. Sadly, she’s some way from the care home stage.

I’ve just laid it on the line with MM that this can NEVER happen again. Because he’s so attuned to The Haggery he can screen a lot of it out, although he totally agrees that this is The End.

His brother needs to get with the programme on Power of Attorney.

“Oh, we haven’t got to this stage”
“Yes, we fucking have”

We are dealing with up to five weeks spells of her in our home at different stages in the last year alone. She’s been here in total for 10 weeks in all.

He’s disabled and can’t physically manage.

We’re viewed as de facto carers by her (MM does it) and I’m dealing with all the organisation as my side of the deal. BIL deals with the £ side of it.

My adrenaline is gone and I’m ANGRY and exhausted.

Pretty sick of being called “she” and “her” and the pure INGRATITUDE.

Thank god for the support here and from friends and family.

I agree, it’s time to research care homes to have those up our sleeves.

@Sicario Jesus H Christ, that’s AWFUL.
The Hag is like that with her microwave. She won’t use it. Prefers her oven for meals. At least she’s got a proper working one now.

Why make your and your children’s lives easier with something useful? Do you think your parent and The Hag are in touch? Or there’s a rule book issued when shit parents give birth to you?

I have absolutely no idea Monkey and I stopped trying to work it out ages ago. I honestly think people like that can't help themselves. My DM is incredibly difficult and stubborn and I'm pretty sure my sister has a personality disorder, maybe bipolar.

It all got way too fucked up for me and I went NC a few years ago.

When you can't do right for doing wrong, it's time to get the hell out of Dodge.

Wow @OliveBlue I could literally have written your post, right down to my mothers relationship with her own mother, exactly the same as you right here.

@openwaterswimming like Olive I am still working through things and working them out but it is so true that we get left as the only Ines nice or conditioned enough to stick around. Then those around the scenario can but pressure or assumption on you.

I’d love nothing more than to want to spend time with my mother and make her life comfortable but that’s not the case and she certainly didn’t make my life comfortable as a child or young adult. People can say it’s “cruel” or “mean” not to want to be a carer for someone who treated you like crap but if they knew the treatment they had inflicted would they feel the same?

@MonkeyfromManchester I am so please she has moved out of the hotel, though of course the behaviour is ramping up, as if you would someone manage to forget her she’s constantly waving a hand in the air going “oh look, I’m still here, don’t forget about me” if only!

@Sicario I am also sorry to hear you were hoodwinked into a situation, why people want to manipulate others for their own gains and needs I will never understand. Though it appears to be much more common than I ever thought, I see it in so many people, though also wonder if I am hyper sensitive to this due to constantly having to put up with that behaviour when growing up.

My frustration has blinded me to another of her games.

Funny how she’s now back at her flat that she’s able to make cups of tea, heat meals up in her oven, make herself bacon sandwiches on the grill (that she HATES on her new cooker that I sorted), wash and dress herself, remember to take her medication. There must be some curative magic over there.

What infuriates me beyond working our arses off as servants here and moving mountains to get her back there is that care package could be used by someone who needs it far more.

But (and I hate myself for this) I’m leaving it in place until care people say she doesn’t need it rather than me doing it or we could end up at square one.

Oh god yes - the two-faced responses. My DM would refuse offers of help saying "no my daughter will do that". Then saying she was absolutely fine to the care assessors, when clearly she wasn't. Managing to undo everything that I had put into place in one fell swoop.

There is no reasoning with an unreasonable person.

@Sicario “oh, my daughter will do that” JESUS. It ties you in, doesn’t it?

@Notmenottoday it is at least good to know we aren't alone in our experience even if they are so incredibly negative and draining. I'm glad to have found this thread for some support from people who understand.
I feel unable to talk to friends about it all as they just don't understand.

@OliveBlue I totally understand what you say re friends. I have 2 very close friends and one of them lost her Mam suddenly 3 years ago.

I've never mentioned my DM's ways to my friends - I've kept it to myself (and to DH and DDad) because once I started unravelling, it would go on and on and I would hate to be 'the friend who needs to off-load' especially when that load is super heavy. To be honest, when I think of all the things that's been said and done, how on earth do you sum all that pain and damage in a few sentences?

That said, one of them asked something a few weeks ago, and I responded that I was v v low contact and that I'd found myself in an upsetting 'scapegoat' position - and they both didn't press me on it.

We're usually really got at dissecting situations and being mutually supportive but this has happened twice - where I feel they've changed the subject and quickly moved
On to prevent me elaborating.

It's hurt me to be honest and it's made me question things. I wonder whether my friend assumes I had the same relationship with my Mum as I do my Dad (who I'm close - they are long separated - over 40 years).

I'd like to have an off-load but it consumes me and I'm very worried about being the one who never shuts up, once I start.

I suppose I'm damaged but keep it all in.

@BlackAlys totally understand. A few close friends around me just assume mother and I just "don't get along" but don't know the extent of it.

Exactly this - "how on earth do you sum up all that pain and damage in a few sentences" ... I even stopped talking to my dad about it (I'm also close to my dad), because I didn't want him to take on the burden of it all anymore, when he already dealt with her when they were married. DH listens but I know gets fed up as he doesn't get why I've kept her in my life. I feel it will begin to cause problems for us if I don't do something about it all, hence still trying NC. Failing I may add, only as she somehow got me on the phone today, won't go into details but I didn't willingly accept the call.

Now I've got to the sob story stage, where she decides to be nicer to me so that I go back to speaking to her again. I told her it was a never ending cycle, conversation was an entire guilt trip, previously hard to listen to but I've heard it all before.

Going back to what you say about friends moving on to prevent elaboration, I think people don't have a clue how to deal with or advise on this type of relationship as it is so foreign to most people.

I found when I did go to counselling it was helpful just to actually tell someone everything. When you say things out loud it seems to make it more understandable that you feel the way you do, at least it did for me. Most people would be shocked if you tell them about the behaviours you're used to..! I'm also fairly embarrassed to actually tell friends about what she's like...

I am sorry to hear you were tricked into contact @OliveBlue like you say it’s the same pattern, drawing you in with the sob story and being “nice”, only to hurt you again. And they act with shock when they are met with resistance. How dare you not allow her to play her twisted game and draw you back in to hurt you.

I completely sympathise with the reaction of friends too. I think you are right when you say people don’t know how to handle it @BlackAlys this thread is such a help, it’s hard on those I speak to about it, mainly my DH, likewise I see his frustration, he doesn’t understand why I bother with her, even with LC.

He witnessed a pretty spectacular performance a couple of years ago and he can now barely look at her, I can’t say I blame him.

I told her it was a never ending cycle
Olive, sounds like she has drawn you into an exchange about your relationship with her and the dynamics thereof?
I know it's not easy but can you shut her down next time, the simplest was through might be to keep control of conversations, keep away from all area's that you find problematic, and dont acknowledge that there are any problems, keep everything locked down and on your terms etc.

@Ulteregome I was shocked it was her on the phone tbh. Didn't know how to react in that moment. I just listened. Didn't say much apart from that I don't have anything to say, that it's the same old etc. And I've no energy any more.

Previously have managed well with LC, but this has been the attempt again at NC... just way too much mind space being taken up by all of this.

Worn down is a severe understatement.

@Notmenottoday I say being nice, but her version of being nice is still abnormal and the strange thing is I'm used to it, I'm not sure anyone else listening in would have said she was nice, it was more of a guilt trip. Using my daughter as leverage. All while crying to me.

Like I said, I've heard it all before and previously her breakdowns have worked. But I've heard it one too many times now.

Except I'm tired and worn down (not much sleep due to baby) so feel I may end up caving. But it's a vicious cycle and I know all of this.

New here and feeling utterly drained and as if I can’t enjoy life. It’s been 10 months since my parents divorce and ever since then my DM has relied on me to get her through it.
Even as a child she used me and my sister as her personal therapist and now more of the same. What’s worse is that I’ve started to associate her so negatively, it’s as if I no longer have any positive feelings towards her at all!

Sounds like you didnt feed her drama too much then Olive? I just never answer the phone TBH and I block any numbers the parent uses to call me on.
If they reach out in anyway I respond with a brief cheery e-mail, which they ignore so it's stalemate that suits me.
I hope you can get some distance, and some headspace🙏

Lavanderrose Hi and sorry to hear that you are struggling, having no positive feelings left for her could be the thing that pushes you into distancing yourself?
How do you see your options here, is your sister an ally, will you be able to work together to protect yourselves from her over-reliance?
It may be too late for your mother to change but if you distance yourselves she will be forced to reach out and MAKE friends rather than rely on trying to force her daughters into servitude!

Hi @Ulteregome thanks so much. Oh definitely I am trying to put boundaries in place, and it’s pushing me further away. my sister has managed to get away and is focusing on her own life after many years of living under her thumb. My DM has now said she’s going to move next me, I don’t how I feel about it... angry...annoyed but also like I wouldn’t have to worry so much about her.

My DM has now said she’s going to move next me
you must not allow this to happen, do not engage with her over it, if she brings it up brush it aside and change the subject.
If she does it you should (secretly) make plans to move away from her.
She is trying to prevent you from escaping like your sister did.
Dont let her sabotage your life
RUN FOR THE HILLS