should i stay or go 20 year marriage

[MadgeMidgerson]

i have been married to my husband for 20 years. we have not been intimate for the last ten. he is not interested, and after he stoping taking care of his hygiene neither was i.

we have moved to my country a year ago. he has struggled to find work and i am the breadwinner. he earns a decent salary now but will only contribute money for groceries. this means 3/4 of his monthly salary goes on ??????

he does minimal stuff around the house, and only when asked.

pros: he is not a terrible person, does not abuse me and the children love him and would be devastated. they are 11 and 13.

he knows i am unhappy and i have talked about my feelings but he says everything is fine and we are great together. this makes me feel like i am crazy.

if i had no children i would go, in a heartbeat but i keep thinking it is a small sacrifice for me to stay and let them continue to have him in their lives.

besides if i kicked him out i am sure if only end up financing his life, and doing everything here at home, only completely alone.

every day i think i can’t bear this any longer and then i think so many others have it worse, and i should just get on with it.

thank you for reading, any advice is helpful and very much appreciated.

[quote Alcemeg]@Wakingup55643 I hope you also manage to escape!

I wish I could wave a wand and give you both, and anyone else who needs it, the strength to start moving towards a better life.

One thing that used to hold me back all the time was thinking, Why would I suddenly kick up a fuss about this when it's been going on for years and much worse things have happened that I just swept under the carpet?

Does this ring bells for you? I'm really interested in the psychology of how we talk ourselves out of taking any action.[/quote]
I wish I had that wand too, I can think of a few people I'd love to wave it over in real life for sure. I think its so complicated. There is an element of the devil you know I think. People may he unhappy in various ways but on one level it 'works', everyone has their embedded roles, people know what to expect, accommodations are made ''oh thats just what he/she is like' etc. To collapse the structure means all of the pieces going hither and yon with no definite way of knowing that it will work out well for the instigator, much less everyone else. It COULD be better but of course it could be worse too. So there's definitely that, along with a million other things

Exactly this @Alcemeg
When we have had conversations about our relationship, and I have told him how unhappy I am, he is bewildered as to how I could have just woken up one day and decided I'm not happy. And yes it does look like I'm getting angry over a minor thing, but it's actually the straw that has finally done for the camel. Also, the only visible thing in the house which points to an unhappy situation is my reaction to things that are done or said quietly by dh. I always try to stay quiet and not react, because the kids are always there. So I just have to walk away. But if I do react, then it looks like I'm the bad guy and the kids are wondering my mum is so angry. Also, when I've let things go, I feel like it's unreasonable to then bring it up again at a later date, so loads of stuff it swept under the carpet and he's completely unaware how it's made me feel. Years of this wears you down.
So yes, I talk myself out of it.

@Wakingup55643: Well, the fact that you mention having had several conversations, presumably over a long period of time and not just in the past week, means that he is just being deliberately evasive when he says you have "just woken up one day and decided you're not happy."

I used to feel like I was being cross-examined and didn't have a leg to stand on.

I was so scared of confrontations that I'd make a list of things I needed to say, but then wouldn't dare say half of them. In any case, he always found a way to derail the "conversation" completely, e.g. "Give me an example of when I've done that" and then "But that was 6 months ago!" etc

I always felt on the defensive, like the onus was on me to persuade him that I was being sensible by wanting to end things. At some point I just had to accept that he was never going to agree and would always yell at me for being stupid.

I think what strung me up was thinking I owed him an explanation that he would accept. And of course he never accepted any of them. So, ongoing stalemate.

V interested to hear if you can relate to this. I'm writing a novel at the moment in which I am trying to capture this exact process, because I hope that if I can manage to describe it properly it might help others to escape from doom!

I wish I had that wand too, I can think of a few people I'd love to wave it over in real life for sure. I think its so complicated. There is an element of the devil you know I think. People may he unhappy in various ways but on one level it 'works', everyone has their embedded roles, people know what to expect, accommodations are made ''oh thats just what he/she is like' etc. To collapse the structure means all of the pieces going hither and yon with no definite way of knowing that it will work out well for the instigator, much less everyone else. It COULD be better but of course it could be worse too. So there's definitely that, along with a million other things

This. Along with other circumstances/fears. It is too much of a gamble. Too much of the unknown and not seeing my children everyday (shared custody) would be a nightmare for me. This might change as they get older.

But on the staying quiet thing. My eldest dc who is a teen has noticed that I communicate less with her father (my husband) these days. So staying quiet can be noticed too. I've blamed it on the peri-menopause and told her so but it is not...husband watching porn (secretly) was the final icing on the cake but I wouldn't tell my dc this. And yes, I probably end up looking like the bad guy (and actually have stated this through the peri. thing). But I'm trying to keep things as normal as possible. Underneath I am seething, there would be numerous horrible interactions if I didn't lie low/walk away. Don't know about long term but it is where it is now.

@User454876584

I wish I had that wand too, I can think of a few people I'd love to wave it over in real life for sure. I think its so complicated. There is an element of the devil you know I think. People may he unhappy in various ways but on one level it 'works', everyone has their embedded roles, people know what to expect, accommodations are made ''oh thats just what he/she is like' etc. To collapse the structure means all of the pieces going hither and yon with no definite way of knowing that it will work out well for the instigator, much less everyone else. It COULD be better but of course it could be worse too. So there's definitely that, along with a million other things

This. Along with other circumstances/fears. It is too much of a gamble. Too much of the unknown and not seeing my children everyday (shared custody) would be a nightmare for me. This might change as they get older.

But on the staying quiet thing. My eldest dc who is a teen has noticed that I communicate less with her father (my husband) these days. So staying quiet can be noticed too. I've blamed it on the peri-menopause and told her so but it is not...husband watching porn (secretly) was the final icing on the cake but I wouldn't tell my dc this. And yes, I probably end up looking like the bad guy (and actually have stated this through the peri. thing). But I'm trying to keep things as normal as possible. Underneath I am seething, there would be numerous horrible interactions if I didn't lie low/walk away. Don't know about long term but it is where it is now.

I can relate to this, not from my myself but my cousin who was married to a very abusive woman who told everyone including their children how useless he was, that was the accepted narrative (though very unfair). He had a million things he could have complained about but didnt, not wanting his children to be in a high conflict home which it would have been if he had challenged her too much. When he finally had enough and left a few years ago now it was he who suffered initially at least the most because he had 'never complained' and she had everyone well schooled on her story because she is a very plausible person. I would just be wary of protecting the children too much or allowing yourself to be seen as the bad guy, it could really backfire if you do leave if he is the kind to play victim. I think ultimately my cousins children will come to see the complexity of the issue and their mothers role in things but that does take time.

This is word for word what I go through @Alcemeg I try to prepare myself for what I'm going to say, and it's all derailed within seconds, then I feel like everything I'm saying is wrong, or not justified, or moany... This even happened in our couples counselling session (Nov 19) where I was planning to just spell out calmly that I wanted the relationship to end, in the safe space of the counselling room, but it went completely the other way and I felt like I was the one giving him a terrible life, and that I needed to try and communicate better. I could tell my counsellor knew this was not the way I wanted it to go considering everything I'd told her in the weeks before, but I suppose she couldn't steer it back the other way. I was furious with myself about that. So yes, I know how that feels.

@User454876584 I am seething underneath all the time too. I wish I could let it out, but it would be awful in the house. I just stay out of the way as much as possible. Maybe if I did let it out it would come to a head.

theleaf

Thanks for that info. I understand how this could happen. I am not totally the bad guy though and I don't thing things look really bad, I just couldn't tell the truth and sort of laughed it off "Oh it's probably just my mid-life hormones." Teen hasn't said anything else and seemed to except this, being female she gets that hormones can be wild and unruly sometimes. There's some things you just wouldn't want to explain to a child and you do feel protective. I'm still trying to work things through in my own head (entering therapy hopefully in a few months) to try and unravel stuff but what you have said is useful, thank you.

@Wakingup55643

This is word for word what I go through *@Alcemeg* I try to prepare myself for what I'm going to say, and it's all derailed within seconds, then I feel like everything I'm saying is wrong, or not justified, or moany... This even happened in our couples counselling session (Nov 19) where I was planning to just spell out calmly that I wanted the relationship to end, in the safe space of the counselling room, but it went completely the other way and I felt like I was the one giving him a terrible life, and that I needed to try and communicate better. I could tell my counsellor knew this was not the way I wanted it to go considering everything I'd told her in the weeks before, but I suppose she couldn't steer it back the other way. I was furious with myself about that. So yes, I know how that feels.

@User454876584 I am seething underneath all the time too. I wish I could let it out, but it would be awful in the house. I just stay out of the way as much as possible. Maybe if I did let it out it would come to a head.

I think at a certain point you have to drop the rope in terms of explaining why you want to leave, whst they did wrong, what you did wrong etc and just say 'this is happening because I want it to happen'. You are never going to talk the other person into thinking this is a good idea if they are of your husbands mindset. I turned around at one stage after being berated by my ex, told how everything was my fault etc and just said very calmly ; well it sounds as if you think I am awful so I think you also want out then, yes?' He didn't but he had sort of backed himself into a corner. Drop the rope and do the practical things you need to do to seperate

@BalancedIndividual That's a life sentence you're imposing on the OP and millions of others with shit spouses.

@User454876584

theleaf

Thanks for that info. I understand how this could happen. I am not totally the bad guy though and I don't thing things look really bad, I just couldn't tell the truth and sort of laughed it off "Oh it's probably just my mid-life hormones." Teen hasn't said anything else and seemed to except this, being female she gets that hormones can be wild and unruly sometimes. There's some things you just wouldn't want to explain to a child and you do feel protective. I'm still trying to work things through in my own head (entering therapy hopefully in a few months) to try and unravel stuff but what you have said is useful, thank you.

I hope I've not put you off, just that sometimes if we are too passive - for what seem like very good reasons - we allow the other person to construct the narrative. In your case I would worry that your husband might spin this as mid-life hormonal craziness or some such, I had that one thrown at me. I think in every sphere of life, assertiveness about our contribution, our feelings, our needs is nearly always the sweet spot

mid-life hormonal craziness or some such Yes, he does think this is a large element of my angst. I thought so too at first but I think it is more than this, I think the cracks starting showing years ago only I had my rose tinted glasses on then. Therapy is the next port of call to unravel. And yes, I can be prone to being passive so it is good you have made me aware of this. It complicates things doesn't it going through the peri/menopause and feeling this way, it does for me but maybe I just don't trust the way I feel where others might.

Jesus OP - with the utmost respect, empathy and kindness, from the bottom of my heart, I am begging you to please listen to the people who are so much better articulated than me in asking you to save your life and leave. I mean I just simply can not understand you and I don't believe what I'm reading! You are so deeply unhappy yet refusing to leave because "it could be worse" ?? And you think happiness is a fairytale? It's not, trust me. There's plenty of happy, content people out there. You are settling, accepting and frankly, for whatever reason, don't have the strength to move. Which is your choice but you must know in you heart really that this is not normal. This, whatever you are in is NOT the norm. I wish you all the best in find the strength to turn your life around. For your and your children's sake...it's never too late.

What an interesting thread. I hope you find the answers you need OP.

@User454876584

mid-life hormonal craziness or some such Yes, he does think this is a large element of my angst. I thought so too at first but I think it is more than this, I think the cracks starting showing years ago only I had my rose tinted glasses on then. Therapy is the next port of call to unravel. And yes, I can be prone to being passive so it is good you have made me aware of this. It complicates things doesn't it going through the peri/menopause and feeling this way, it does for me but maybe I just don't trust the way I feel where others might.

I think as women, many of us do become more 'bolshy' (in a good way!) as we get older, for a variety of reasons including being fucking sick by then of being the person who everyone drags out of. And there is a bit of internalised as well as other mysogyny in attributing it to hormones. I think we often have very letigitimate reasons for being fed up, overwhelmed etc which it's easy to dismiss as 'hormones'. Now you may for all I know be a sweaty crazed hormonal mess but sometimes I find in my angry moments I have moments of clarity too, hold on to those. I think we look around as the children become less physically dependent on us and think 'is this it?'

'is this it?

Oh yes, I've done a lot of this. I started a thread about it in the menopause section but didn't get a lot of response. Did you get this feeling too? Did anyone else? I'm at a crossroads with so many things...I don't have a career to speak of (a series of dead end admin jobs) really left it as a no brainer for me to become a sahm, no extended family (extremely dysfunctional with history of abuse and neglect leaving me with anxiety/low self worth). I do get this 'is this it?' feeling a lot I have to admit and I feel guilty about feeling that way. I have three lovely dc, a mortgage that has been paid off on a relatively large house (I'm late 40's)...but still...

Sorry to derail your post op with the 'is this it?' question.

@User454876584

'is this it?

Oh yes, I've done a lot of this. I started a thread about it in the menopause section but didn't get a lot of response. Did you get this feeling too? Did anyone else? I'm at a crossroads with so many things...I don't have a career to speak of (a series of dead end admin jobs) really left it as a no brainer for me to become a sahm, no extended family (extremely dysfunctional with history of abuse and neglect leaving me with anxiety/low self worth). I do get this 'is this it?' feeling a lot I have to admit and I feel guilty about feeling that way. I have three lovely dc, a mortgage that has been paid off on a relatively large house (I'm late 40's)...but still...

Yes, I definitely felt 'is this it?'. My ex husband was ok, no abuse, nothing about his behaviour that thousands wouldnt put up with, we had a very comfortable life etc etc but I didnt love him and liked him less and less as time went on. I am a very independent person so the kind of things that even a bad marriage bring like some company, security etc weren't huge motivators for me. I just knew that we would not be tigether forever and I thought for everyones sakes, it was better to end if while still relatively young, for him to maybe meet someone else if he wanted (which he hasn't I dont think). I too was only working a little so I felt guilt in living off him feeling as I did. Though I had decent qualifucations it took a few years to get on my feet once we seperated and I got kind of screwed in the settlement. But without wanting to sound dramatic, that was the price of freedom. There were a few hairy years and the lows have been low but the highs - the feeling of freedom and independence, living as I wish, the tingle of a few romances, the bracing honesty of it all, the deepening of other relationships with friends and family who were brilliant to me, the sense of possibility - have been wonderful. I can now say 'what is it? rather than is this it and not knowing the answer is kind of scary but exhilarating

I will also say that on the whole - and I credit my ex-husband hugely for this - my three children have adjusted very well and bar the first few months Ive not had to deal with much by way of their upset or anger. If I felt I had caused real long tterm harm to them or my relationship with them, I think that would negate much of the positive other things

@theleafandnotthetree

"There were a few hairy years and the lows have been low but the highs - the feeling of freedom and independence, living as I wish, the tingle of a few romances, the bracing honesty of it all, the deepening of other relationships with friends and family who were brilliant to me, the sense of possibility - have been wonderful. I can now say 'what is it?' rather than 'is this it?' and not knowing the answer is kind of scary but exhilarating."

^ THIS

Could you try a "trial" separation? This might help you realise what you want and see that it's not too hard to do it.

Still no helpful advice from me OP I'm afraid as I'm stuck in a similar boat, with similar thought processes I suppose. I've taken a long hard look at what might exist outside of this tunnel but with young dc I think there comes an element of doing what's practical, at least in my case. I would question the financial element though...I can see where the money is or the bulk of it if that makes sense straight away that causes an element of distrust.

And in my case I don't have a great support network. I have two or three friends (two of them I might not hear from week to week) not people who really factor in every day life. I have literally no extended family so no other adults around. No amazing job I can scuttle off to during the day. It doesn't feel like it would be exhilarating, not with young dc...with older dc maybe.

It would be great to feel authentic though. I feel very much in the background of things - like a prop I suppose. I do have an engrossing hobby though and I'm hoping to meet some more like minded people. Perhaps if I had a better social life, I might feel I have more to look forward to...I don't know. They say that you've got to cultivate feelings from within...more self care and actually being nice to myself is happening now...but I think it is the lack of decent relationships in my life (some irreplaceable like decent parents/siblings) that cause me a great deal of unhappiness. With all of the posts about men having affairs/addictions etc. it does make you have perspective of actually the grass isn't always greener.

@User454876584, I am in a similar position to you, though my children are secondary now so fortunately independence is getting closer:)
I have decided that I want my freedom back at some point but justifying causing disruption and pain to others is hard and I haven't yet been brave enough (a global pandemic hasn't helped much either!)..
However what I have spent the year doing is trying to sort of build my resilience up!
I have reached out to old friends, made more effort with the friends I had, trialled some new hobbies, and engaged in more fitness..I try and do one new thing a week, even if that's just taking myself on new walk! It might be worth a try, it feels like a stepping stone to me and and I feel stronger every day.

That's positive to hear Torres and backs up where I am at with it all. I'm going to shove myself to the forefront when youngest starts school. I love walking and will perhaps join a walking group. Therapy is my first port of call. I want to try new things, just make it about me for a while and have no regrets in regards to my use of time and spending time with dc. I have lots of disappointment to process at the moment and like you don't want to cause disruption and pain.

Well done Torres and User454 I'm doing the same! I never used to think fitness was something I needed to think about, I'm naturally skinny and didn't want to get any skinnier. I'd love a womanly body! Anyway, since lockdown last year I have started running and I absolutely love it. I love the feeling of strength, achievement and freedom. It really has made me feel a lot stronger, and I think if I keep going and building myself up, I will get the mental strength I need to break away. I did a ten mile run on Sunday and felt like Wonder Woman ha ha! Also quite horny, which is I shame as I don't have anywhere to put it 😂

Will his wage support a 2 bed flat? When he has dc, 1 in each bedroom and him on settee? It will be a shock to him to pay bills, but that is his problem.
Perhaps you could mention you wouldn't pursue a maintenance claim? Or offer him first months rent/deposit and furniture.
You don't have to divorce him tomorrow but maybe think about how you could persuade/bribe him to leave and be independent of you.
You deserve so much better than this torture.