Uninvited to family wedding

[R0SEMARY]

Sorry this is long as there’s a lot of background and I don’t want to drip feed. Names/ details changed of course.

I’ve been married for 20 years to John, we have teenage kids together and John has a daughter, Helen, from a previous marriage. Helen is in her 30s and so was a teenager when I married her father. And no, I was not the OW - they were divorced years before we met.

Our marriage has been very difficult for the last 10 years, mostly because of my husband’s many affairs (among other things) . I’ve tried to leave several times but it’s complicated and I’ve stayed for the sake of the children. It’s bearable because he works away a lot and we pretty much lead separate lives.

When Helen was a teenager she lived with us for half the week. This was hard for me, I will admit, because she had a lot of behavioural issues and was very challenging. I tolerated a lot of verbal abuse and inappropriate behaviour as I knew she was troubled and unhappy. She was occasionally physically aggressive towards me, especially when I was pregnant.

After she left home things got better of course and during her 20s and 30s we have got on OK. She lives at the other end of the country with her girlfriend so we only meet up a few times a year but keep in touch by phone, what’s app, zoom etc .

They are getting married this autumn, postponed from last year. We are all involved - my teenagers are bridesmaids / ushers - it’s been years in the planning. Naturally I have my Step MOB outfit and I’ve arranged ( booked and paid for ) a week’s holiday for us all around the event, as it’s a 9 hour drive away.

However my husband has always struggled with Helen’s sexuality. He disliked her last girlfriend and really hates her current fiancée ( says she’s fat and ugly ) but I’ve always tried to smooth things over and persuade him to keep on good terms with them both. He originally didn’t want anything to do with the wedding, partly because he hates her girlfriend and partly because he has an issue with same sex relationships in general. He still thinks it’s a phase that Helen will grow out of ( sorry I know that’s offensive ).

However I talked him round and made all the arrangements so he can’t say it’s too much hassle. He didn’t even want to walk her down the aisle but I persuaded him to suggest instead that she ask her mum as they are closer.

Then tonight, out of the blue, Helen phoned me to say that she doesn’t want me at her wedding any longer but she still wants my husband and children to attend.

I was absolutely gobsmacked. We’ve been talking about this wedding for three years, I’ve helped her choose bridesmaids dresses, flowers, menu etc (at her request). She wouldn’t say why she was doing this.

There’s been no arguments or falling out of any kind - all recent conversions have been about the wedding, her work, her cats etc.

Of course I asked her father what was going on and after a long conversation he admitted that he has been lying to Helen about me for years. Basically all the negative and nasty things he has been saying to me about her, he has told her that I said them, not him.

I am so shocked. Ever since I’ve known him he’s been complaining to me about her. About her refusing to attend school as a teenager, about her self harming ( which he said was just attention seeking ), her lies and stealing, her sexuality, career choices, her dropping out of university, cheating on her previous partner, her character, her lack of religion ( he is from a conservative religious background and raised her in it ).

I’ve spent years listening to him talk about her . So often I’ve defended her and tried to get him to be a little more open minded about her beliefs and lifestyle. Persuaded him to be polite to her partners and talked about their good points. Made the effort to keep in touch, sending gifts and cards etc.

Don’t get me wrong, some of what he complains about is right and I’ve agreed with him . But I’ve never said it to anyone except him and I assumed that what we said was between us. It never crossed my mind that he was telling her anything that we discussed. It’s one of the few things I thought we were united on - that we support each other in dealing with her. Even during her adult life there’s been a lot of drama and I’ve always supported him.

And now I discover he has been undermining me to her for all these years. I’ve worked so hard to try to keep things friendly and to keep open the lines of communication and he’s been working against me behind my back.

It’s not that I thought DH loved me - I’m not under any illusion about that. He only stays because he likes the domestic servicing and he doesn’t have to pay child support or parent his children.

But I just don’t understand why he would tell all these lies for years. Why would anyone do that ? I’m just so shocked I don’t know what to think or what to do.

Yes, she isn't interested in the truth about how he manipulated everything. That's about him, after all! Her interest is in her story, the one she's planned.

We're all bit players in the drama of 'Helen the heroine, beset on all sides...'

She's beyond annoyed when people don't play the role assigned to them.

You were probably supposed to beg to be allowed to go to the wedding. After many attempts by you saying how sad you were to miss your D.C. in their wedding clothes etc, she may have been planning to graciously allow you to attend.

And would have rubbed your nose in it for ever more!

If you refuse to engage at all with John about anything Helen related, you’ll remove any vestige of power he thinks he has

You won’t be fuelling Helen, neither will your kids.

Carry on lining up those ducks 🦆:)

@R0SEMARY

Have you explained to your children that she has a personality disorder diagnosis?

I think you should consider it if they do not know. I believe it could be helpful to them.

That he sees nothing wrong in manipulating people that he freely admits it!!!
Yes, this is so far from normal, him knowing & admitting he manipulates people, & you don't even seem to realize it's unbelievably wrong

"He believed that she loved him and needed his approval. But now he can see that she doesn't care about him, only what he can do for her."

The irony of this. I'm sure you're not, but don't feel sorry for him. Nice taste of his own medicine.

[quote hannayeah]@R0SEMARY

Have you explained to your children that she has a personality disorder diagnosis?

I think you should consider it if they do not know. I believe it could be helpful to them.[/quote]
No because I’m not supposed to know. John told me. So it could be lies or true. They both tell a lot of lies.

I think it’s true because of how she acts. But I’m not clear if it’s right to tell the kids because I got that confidential medical information when I was in loco parentis to Helen.

She is open with me about having a mood disorder and talks about speaking to her psychiatrist and coming off meds etc.

I know she’s awful but I don’t think that gives me to the right to share her medical information.

@okokok000

"He believed that she loved him and needed his approval. But now he can see that she doesn't care about him, only what he can do for her."

The irony of this. I'm sure you're not, but don't feel sorry for him. Nice taste of his own medicine.

He seemed quite shocked at the time but he was fine by the next morning. He spends 100% of his day working and watching Tv, he doesn’t let things get to him.

It’s easy I guess when you don’t have a heart or a conscience.

I’m the only one who is in tears/ can’t sleep / posting on MN trying to understand / watching you tube vidoes about narcissism until 2am. And of course 🐤🐤🐤🐤

( I think they might be chickens but you get the idea )

I think you right to protect your DC from emotional damage that she is trying to inflict on them trumps her right to confidentiality.

Stuck to the truth - you know she has a psychiatrist and you suspect she may be a narcissist.

Also make it loud and clear that no matter what they do or don't do Helen isn't trustworthy and will not care about their feelings only her own. It's all very very sad but it's who she is.

@muppette

Rosemary, this is all awful, and I'm very sorry you're going through it. It's no way for you to be repaid for the years of genuine kindness and understanding you've shown them both. But they are incapable of behaving better, it looks like.

You really need to remove yourself from the firing line.

Helen is enraged because she didn't anticipate that your kids would decide (themselves, not manipulated) not to go. She is the one who wants to manipulate and force them into going. You're just a tool that she will use without compunction to make what she wants happen.

The way out is super easy. Don't ever talk to her again. Tell your kids that her behaviour is too much, and she clearly doesn't want to have anything to do with you, so you're leaving her be. And reassure them they have your support if they want to go, or if they don't. I know it will be a bit like taking sides for them, but that's not your fault - you didn't set up this conflict of loyalties. Also reassure your son that he can't be forced.

She will of course hate the lack of response, but that's way the best way to deal with her.

I would even drop the subject with him. It's come out even more now what a bugger he is. I don't think I'd do anything hasty but just come to terms with who he is first.

Be happy. You are free of her. Don't feel you owe her anything. You've more than paid any dues. Now quietly close the case and let her get on with it.

Well written. I agree, 100%. This is the way forward for you OP.

@RandomMess

I think you right to protect your DC from emotional damage that she is trying to inflict on them trumps her right to confidentiality.

Stuck to the truth - you know she has a psychiatrist and you suspect she may be a narcissist.

Yes, you're a good person with integrity but she has scapegoated you so if you were to say to your dc that after you take yourself out of helen's orbit forever, you worry that she will still feel the need to create drama and may well try to create a fracture between the three of them, then they will be alert to it.

You have a lot of integrity but after somebody presents you with a manifesto of all the reasons they hate you, then they have forfeited the right to have you give them the benefit of the doubt.

I really feel for you. You don't deserve this at all. It's a horrible position to be in. A positive in this is that your kids haven't drunk the "kool aid" and have the measure of them. You deserve a heck of a lot better.

@ThumbWitchesAbroad

Well done @R0SEMARY* for refusing to read the email or reply to it. She will likely ramp up the attack so if you haven't already blocked her number, please do so (I think you have, but do make sure) - she's after a response from you because she's feeding off your distress. If you cut off her supply, she will try harder and harder to get a response so she can get her "hit" again. "Emotional vampires" is a useful term I learnt when it comes to these types - they WANT you to hurt, so you leak emotional energy, which they then suck up

I confess that I did skim read it - because John forwarded it to me ( of course he did ). But when I saw how vile it was I closed it and filed it.

You have all helped me see that there’s nothing I can do or say that will change anything. I could see in the last zoom call that she’s actually enjoying my distress and I’m just giving her what she wants. Like a junkie needs her fix.

I can’t tell you how much this thread has helped me make sense of it all. I’ve turned around 180 degrees from where I was a week ago.

So glad to see you're not reading anything from Helen...or rather what John forwards you from Helen....

cut it all off and relax

I think thats the forward dont engage with it dont react and keep planning your escape

You're doing so well @R0SEMARY. I'm so impressed by your dignity, your consideration for your kids, and that you still want to do the fair thing and respect Helen's medical information.

I'm sure it's been far harder than your calm demeanour on this board gives away, but you are coming out of this so well, and should be proud of how you've handled both John's duplicity and Helen's batshittery. You have shown yourself to be the far better person while not giving them an inch, nor the satisfaction of getting a rise from you. You are a total grown up.

I disagree, I think at their ages your dc should be told she is manipulating you all & she says she has x, y, z, so the combination with spoilt, entitled diva is creating this batshit behaviour.
You re not unveiling a shocking shameful secret, you are not her doctor, they know she is difficult & creates drama (putting it nicely) whenever even her name is mentioned.
If she was ill you'd tell them,
so in my view they should be given some clues to this riddle. Particularly as when she realises you have dropped the rope, she will be livid & drip poison in their ears. Her life's goal is to punish you. Rather than acknowledge the evil is within
They will be reading her emails/msgs you cant police their correspondence.

He actually said "I am the master manipulator"??

Oh goodness, he thinks so highly of himself doesnt he - I am king of the world!!!

I agree with @Mix56'S comments. Best to arm your children in case, as is probable, Helen changes her targets once she realises she can't get at you directly. 🌹

I've just read all of your updates. What a terrible situation you're in. I'm sorry you're going through this.

The "master manipulator" comment is quite chilling. He sounds like a sociopath and so does she.

Well done for being so level headed and strong for your children. They are lucky to have you, especially with such a dick for a father.

I think you said earlier that she was diagnosed with BPD? Those initials can cause confusion -
Bi Polar Disorder
or
Borderline Personality Disorder

I've assumed that earlier diagnosis was for bi-polar?
But that, she also may have some kind of (undiagnosed) personality disorder - borderline, or narcissistic?

Though I may have misunderstood.

Either way, she clearly has some very serious issues. And she is completely unstoppable. You are doing the best thing by stepping away and not engaging, not fully reading nor responding to her email, not supplying her with more to feed this.

John and Helen are doing their own thing, and with all disorders taken into account, there is nothing to be done about that. They will go on like this for the rest of their lives. And to them, this behaviour is normal and quite comfortable. Because this is who they are. And they are enmeshed in it.

It's so hard for you and dcs, but I do think it's ok to tell them that there's something wrong with her, (though I expect they've worked that out!) - but also that they are not obliged to read or answer her emails or messages.

He says the ‘master manipulator’ comment quite often, usually when he’s been caught out and his manipulations have been exposed.

I’ve been here on MN a long time so I know to listen when someone tells you who they are.

He's really proud of being a 'master manipulator' but hasn't realised that that's not something to be proud of.

I suggest an uninterested shrug of the shoulders accompanied by brief, uninterested phrase/sentence. As often as possible.