Shocked by DD's friend's parents.

[supersop60]

I'm seeking advice that I can give to my DD's friend. I have never come across a situation like this, and I'll try to be clear.
DD's friend is at Uni. She, like a normal student, has had a few relationships and has recently met a new man. She has discovered that her (D)M knows about this man, by logging onto her daughter's Instagram account!
All hell has broken lose with the parents. Friend has brought shame upon the family etc. They have now issued an ultimatum - either her (D)F moves to Uni town and friend lives with him for the remainder of her course, OR she is cut off from the family altogether.
I'd like to ask MN what your views are, and what help might be available to this poor girl.
For background, the family are Pakistani Christian and have lived in the UK for most of their married life.

As someone who comes from a different culture, like others have said, it really isn’t that simple. The parents are not being intentionally cruel, they are trying to protect their child and unfortunately the way they’re doing so doesn’t align with how their western raised child lives.

You should encourage her to speak to her parents to explain why her father living with her is not the best thing. She should also speak to other relatives to get advice. Do not encourage her to leave her family... these are cultural differences that sometimes Westerners struggle to understand. As children of foreign parents, we just have to find a way to navigate these situations.

Support her with whatever she needs but do not get involved unless she is in danger because the problem will be made worse.

@Ladywinesalot

It’s abusive and I would guess the father is Pakistani? In that case the girl has been brought up in a Muslim culture and boyfriends are probably a big no, no.

Student services are best to help.
Your DD can only lend an ear.
Be cautious about getting involved or they will blame your DD

In my OP I said that the parents are Pakistani Christian.

I'd just like to reassure the people who are worried that I have no intention of interfering or telling this girl what to do. I am gathering information on where she go for help and advice. We are here if she needs us. My Dd reminded me this evening about how her friend was allowed to get a job while in 6th form, then after a few weeks, her mother insisted that she give it up, because she was supposed to be at home with her family.

I'm quite shocked that so many people have so little understanding at the nuances and intricasies of this situation, and the possible outcomes and consequences that could result from whatever 'choice' this syoung girl makes.
It's good that she is already having counselling, and think the advice to contact the specialist agencies is a good one. It's good that Op can provide her with somewhere to stay if she needs it.
This young girl has some enormous decisions to make, none of which are ideal and will stay with her for many years to come.

Please contact 101 and report potential Honour based abuse. Alarm bells ring here and the potential escalation could be horrific. HBA is still common even families you think you know. Police will be able to speak with your daughters friends and specially trained officers will be able to assist in putting safeguards in place where needed. Even forced marriage protections orders to prevent the family taking her out the country etc. If you need any further advice please feel free to send me a message.

moijejous agree 100%. Advising her to cut off the family is the worse advice. In this culture it’s not just cutting off family, but would involve cutting herself off from the entire community, which would include family and family friends. It’s a huge thing for someone so young to do. It would be something you’d consider only as a last resort. Better would be finding someone in the family sympathetic to her situation , who could act as intermediary between her and the parents. But ultimately it might be something she just has to navigate and compromise on. It’s obviously awful for her, but I think cutting herself off from the family would be worse.

she really does need specialist help, this is already controlling behaviour and it can escalate to honour based violence or forced marriage.

It's generous of you to offer your home, OP but I imagine the parents will know where that is. In the last resort and if things seem likely to escalate remember that refuges are still open and can help someone like this- domestic abusers can be parents as well as partners

Those of you telling the OP to tell her to just cut off her parents now, believe me, it’s not that easy. Going nc is so emotionally difficult. The girl is having therapy already, clearly she’s already struggling. I think the OP is doing the right thing, gather up useful services the girl can access and offer support if she wants it.

@2bazookas

Her parents strong opinions must have been known to their daughter so what was she thinking of, to be so indiscreet they found out. Just like all those married people who leave their phone lying about with incriminating messages from their lovers.

What the hell are you on about? How have you made this her fault?! Fucking nora.

I think no matter how westernised the family think they are they are very much closed off and it is unfair on the daughter.
On the one hand they allow their daughter certain freedoms but then revoke them after giving her a taste of freedom and choice.

Whilst non contact is extreme I think keeping under her families thumb is going to wreck her life if she is not allowed to make her own decisions
What happens in the future. Will she be allowed to work, what job will her family approve of. Who will she be allowed to marry if her parents have to approve. Will her brother be treated the same?
I think no contact is the only way to go given the 2 choices.

The right thing to do would be to stand up to her family and continue to be autonomous.
The simplest thing to do would be to keep the bf secret until she finished uni, then do the above.

On the one hand they allow their daughter certain freedoms but then revoke them after giving her a taste of freedom and choice
I would suggest that the real purpose (or gain) from giving her the freedom is the message it sends, ie 'we will do whatever we like to you, deny you your liberty as and when we please, you are not a free person you are a chattel' :(

@user18467425798532

karmanirvana.org.uk may be a useful contact if she doesn't already have it. They specialise in this kind of situation.

Good call.

@hatedbytheDailyMail

I imagine she is rightly shocked and appalled at them hacking her SM, but she can't be surprised at how they've reacted to her seeing guys, surely? They won't have kept their expectations from her, the opposite if anything

Not necessarily. My MIL & FIL are of Indian heritage. Were fine about me and my DH (then DP) being together. Treated me like a daughter, was invited to all family events. We lived together, bought a house together, got engaged. All absolutely fine.

We then decided to start a family. I got pregnant quickly and we excitedly told them out happy news........they went nuts! Were really upset with us, said some very mean things. 'Demanded' we get married immediately. We agreed for an easy life as we were already engaged and wanted anent life. At one point when I had an opinion on HOW I would like the wedding day to be, my FIL accused me of trying to trick his son into marriage.
I was so shocked and hurt. Angry with my DH for not telling me they would react like this. He claims he had NO IDEA they would be like this.
My relationship with them has never really recovered, although they are amazing grandparents to DD. My relationship with DH took a massive hit too and if I hadn't been pregnant I would have walked away at that point. I don't think I've ever really forgiven him for putting me in that position. I've also never really been sure if he would have married me if it wasn't for his parent's demanding it. It's not a nice way to live. It's our 11th anniversary next week and I've known since then I was making a mistake, but I also worry about the influence they would have on him / our DD if we divorced. I can't take that risk.

Oops, I obviously needed to get that out!!!!

moijejous - I also agree. Pakistani Christians have been subjected to the most hideous persecution and at this stage are a deeply traumatised community.

@Viviennemary

You need to keep out of this family business. I would recommend to the girl that she should see a counsellor at the University to talk things through.

Nonsense. OP is supporting her daughter and daughter’s friend. She should not turn away.

There is a small charity called Stand Alone and they can help with estranged students www.standalone.org.uk/

They also have a podcast which is great, I couldn’t find it on Apple podcasts but it is on the Podbean app. ‘Stand Alone Podcast’.

@GrumpyHoonMain

A lot of what you’re suggesting will make things worse. I actually think her moving in with her dad is fine. They aren’t pulling her out of uni, they aren’t telling her to break up, they want her to focus on university. Most Pakistani Christians living in the UK have very real reasons to reject Pakistani culture and the issues around honor is not the same as with Pakistani Hindus Muslims or Sikhs. Chances are if she does what they say while at uni they may let her marry him.

Another amenable Pakistani christian friend or family member to mediate would be the best thing. As an outsider your interference could make things worse.

She is 20, living in the U.K.

NO it's NOT ok for her Dad to move to her Uni town and force his 20 year old daughter to live with him so he can control her

She's a 20 year old woman, living in the U.K. NO, they can't pull her out if Uni

She's a 20 yo woman they cannot make her break up with him.

let her let her marry him????
Who says she even wants to
And if she does..she's a 20 year old woman living in the U.K. She does NOT need her parents permission.

FMD

@GreenFingersWouldBeHandy

This is none of your business.

This kind of abuse is everyone's business

They may be thinking about her moral integrity (because of the risk to her being granted eternal life). It's really no different than old school religious ppl not wanting ppl to have sex before marriage. Also, they may have found out other things she has been up to.

I dont necessarily think it's about control or cruelty. Just old fashioned views perhaps.

I think she needs to find someone to mediate a discussion between them. Perhaps a minister? Ideally one who is more forward thinking. Assuming that the daughter follows christianity too then surely she should want to do right by her faith. But perhaps the parents can be reasoned with a little as it sounds like theyve just had an extreme knee jerk reaction.

It's generous of you to offer your home, OP but I imagine the parents will know where that is

The same thought occurred to me
It seems absolutely the right thing to do to help the friend with accessing appropriate support, but I'm not sure I'd want to involve my family home in this. The family would probably blame you for "interfering" - possibly even think you're a "corrupting influence" - and you could easily end up with some ugly scenes on your doorstep

Sometimes quiet and reliable background support can be better than going in all guns blazing, especially if there's every chance she'll bow down to the family's wishes in the end

Although I do agree what the parents are doing is awful this girl must have known the risk she was taking so this can hardly come as a surprise (although she probably didn’t think they would find out). The parents probably love their daughter and think they are doing the right thing for her - I asked an acquaintance once why he would be upset if his daughter married/dated outside their culture. He said it was because she would lose her family and entire community.
Obviously that’s completely wrong but it might be the case for this girl so anyone encouraging this girl to do what she wants and ignore her family need to be aware of what the results may be. If the girl totally understands that and still decides to ignore her families wishes then fine but it’s not easy at her age to walk away from everyone she knew growing up.
Hopefully a middle way can be found

'they want the benefits of a western life whilst continuing to hold onto primitive backward misogynistic practices...more like!'

the same poster refers to the girl being treated like 'chattel'

Massive dog whistles here, tbh. There are women on here who post about not being able to spend £15 of their own money and having their husbands forcibly bath them every night! I don't see the same language for some reason, because I guess there's an assumption they're white and not in proximity to Muslim culture.

I'm not excusing the parents - I have cut my own parents off. I'm 40. It took 20 years of estrangement, after which I realised that they're not going to change - hence my advice earlier that the girl should cut them off now.

It's not easy at all, you don't experience your parents are backwards cultural stereotypes. You assume they will always be there for you, because that's a basic expectation. There's no other set of people giving you a roof over your head - except in this case, the girl has support from the poster and good friends and it will be easier for her hopefully, given the resources that everyone is pointing to.

Making her parents' behaviour seem as though it's completely OFF some spectrum of coercive control that happens to women regardless of their background serves dodgy ulterior motives imo.

*as, not are!

Update:
There has been a development.
The parents facetimed their daughter together, late last night.
They have withdrawn their ultimatum (presumeably because she didn't give in), and told her she can stay in her accommodation and finish her course, although they very much disapprove of what she is doing.
So, no immediate danger, but I shall still recommend she contacts Student Support etc in case she needs them in the future.
Thank you for taking time to rspond.