A sex one

[LivingDeadDoll]

I'm in my mid 40s and have never had a good relationship.

I lost my virginity at 19 but didn't really have a lot of sex. Most of the sex I had was drunken, missionary and a bit dull. I was raped twice before 21 which really put me off sex and I became fearful of it although I didn't realise that at the time really.

I married a man who was a virgin. We married because we were best friends not because we fancied or romantically loved each other. We had sex a few times in the early days but he was very inexperienced and there was no passion. We were together for 12 long, dull, sexless years.

After him, I decided I was going to have a bit of a personal sexual revolution but it didn't really work put that way. I've probably had sex with 8 men in the last 10 years. First, was a fuck buddy and that was the first time I'd even shared a bath with someone - I was 38. After that, I met men who really only wanted to do missionary - roll on, grunt a few times, roll off. Or had ED and so preferred hand jobs or bjs.

In late 2019, I started dating a man who was very sexual. I was so unbelievably attracted to him but my past all came back to haunt me and sex was a disaster. I was hugely intimidated by his experience and I felt woefully inadequate which made me really withdrawn sexually. I realised that I'm not very good with the spontaneous aspect of sex and I need there to be a lot of communication around it - what's going to be done, how etc. I told him about my past and how there are certain positions I find really triggering. He was incredibly understanding but I think it made him a bit fearful of initiating and upsetting me and he started waiting for me to do so. This, in turn, knocked my confidence further and I felt like he had gone off me sexually so I didn't really and, 5 months ago, I ended it.

There is obviously a lot of care and affection still there. For the first few weeks after breaking up, we saw each other only as friends. As Christmas approached, we became a lot closer. No sex or even hints at it but we spent about 3 months taking it slowly and getting to know each other again without the pressure of a label or expectations. We flirted and become a lot closer emotionally. A couple of weeks ago we had sex. It was really nice but I still had anxious feelings around it. We've seen each other about 3 times since. Had sex on one other occasion but the other times not. There's no expectation of sex and he is really respectful when we do.

I suppose none of it is simple in my head. I want an exciting and interesting sex life within a loving relationship but I'm plagued with feelings of inadequacy and the knowledge that, whatever we do, he'll have memories of doing similar with other women who were younger, slimmer, more confident and better skilled than me. I don't want him to feel he's having to 'teach' me and I'd feel small and insecure and stupid if he did. Although he's nothing other than kind and caring.

I feel big and awkward having sex. I'm torn between trying to sort this out and just accepting that I'm approaching 50 in the next few years and that sex and relationships are just something I need to accept isn't going to happen for me and put it in the past.

How did last night go @LivingDeadDoll?

Hard to say, tbh.

When i go to his, it's always just the two of us. When he comes to mine, my daughter is there constantly except for when we're in bed! I get it, she likes him and she's as starved of company as the rest of us at the moment. So there wasn't really the opportunity to talk even if I'd wanted to. He would never show or indicate if he were frustrated by her presence because it's her home and I'm her mum and she is entitled to spend time downstairs with me if she wants to.

He came round, we all chatted, laughed, ate together, played a board game... it was a really nice evening. We went to bed and held each other. A bit of fooling around.

The following day, my daughter joined us for breakfast, did some homework while he and I went for a short walk, he offered to help her tidy her room - she was a bit overwhelmed by the unpacking from the move - so we spent an hour sorting stuff and folding clothes etc with her, played another game together and he left around 5pm.

I do need to speak with him now though. I think he's just being a good friend, in which case, I need to take the sex off the table. I don't want to lose the friendship.

I keep telling myself that raising it won't spoil anything or change anything - it is what it is whether spoken aloud or not. It's just hard to find the time and the words.
.

I'm impressed with your ability to not see what is in front of you waving its arms and screaming 😉

He must be absolutely crazy about you! He helped your daughter unpack? Spent all that time with your family voluntarily?

He's giving you time and space to adjust but definitely seems invested for the long haul. Enjoy it! ❤️

I know what it looks like but I can't assume anything. I read so many threads nowhere where women are trying to find meaning and relevance in every little interaction and I don't want to do that.

I tell myself he is voluntarily spending 'family' time with us and a lot of men are not interested in that even when it's their own children!

I've just got so little confidence and faith in myself in this respect that I can't trust it.

I'm not even sure if/how much he fancies me.

My head is just in a fuddle

Try to enjoy it along the way.

And you could think about just saying casually that you'd be open to progressing things when he's ready but no pressure. Then drop the subject completely. Give him an opening but don't make it a big heavy conversation.

Or just keep doing what you're doing, it's going fine so far ☺️

Or just bring out the Super Knickers!!! Do you have some lingerie that makes YOU feel sexy?

@LivingDeadDoll I’ve just read the whole thread and I identify with so much of how you feel.
I don’t have much to offer and don’t want to out myself but I wanted to say that I’ve recently done the Thrive Programme and it’s been amazing. I’ve had tons of therapy and none of it has helped with this, until now. I just though I’d mention it as I really believe you can sort this!

No I dont! I have some underwear that's really nice but I don't feel sexy in it! 😬

I think that's why I need to talk about it. Just doing stuff like that isn't going to give me an answer. I don't want to put the ball in his court, no pressure and then leave it either. This is about me taking control of my life and deciding what I want for myself. Not waiting around for a man to decide for me.

Which is why I don't just want to say something and leave it open to him to respond at some point. This is about me taking control of my own life and situation.

Thinkivepulledsommat

Thanks. I'll look into that.

Just out of interest, why do you think that worked for you? How was it different to other things/therapy you've tried?

Just need to emphasise the difference here.... The underwear isn't at all about what you think HE would like. No. Ew! (They all like tacky, crotchless, red bum-biters, anyway... Blech!!!!). The underwear/lingerie is something that makes YOU feeeeeeeel sexy. For yourself. Helps you strut your stuff. Doesn't matter whether he gets to see it or not.

justilou1

Thanks, I did get that that was what you meant

Tbh, I don't think I've ever really felt 'sexy'. I only wear 'nice' underwear that I feel good in but would I ever say that I feel sexy in it? No.

Besides, I don't have the sort of body that should be strutting its stuff...

Nobody does, Lambchop... It's about the texture or the colour, or holding your boobs up right... It's the concept of having a little secret that nobody but you knows about. I do understand the whole sexy thing, but I can assure you that it's not about your body. I ate to avoid my feelings of self-hatred. I have lost a LOT of weight in the last few years and nothing much has changed about my self-image. It's all between the ears.

@LivingDeadDoll
Therapy was all about my past and going over it in order to find out why I am like I am. After a while, that doesn’t really help because you start to label yourself as damaged.
What I’ve realised through this programme is that we don’t actually ‘store’ emotions - we choose to react to a given situation in a certain way (and yes, this is based on our past experiences, but the current experience isn’t the same). So our reactions (and anxieties, fears, phobias etc) are just habits we’ve formed. And they can be broken, by changing the way you speak to yourself and the learned ways of thinking you’ve developed.
For example, you are obviously affected by your past, but what’s affecting you at the moment is actually not your past itself, but the way you’ve chosen to think about things. ‘Chosen’ is the important bit. We choose what we think and what we believe (look how easily we stop believing in Santa). So, if you’re choosing to think something you can also choose to not think it. It’s about power.
I think you think that you’re unlovable, but I also think you could actually overcome this fairly easily. I’m not quite there yet, but I nearly am, and I can see that I will get there.

Sex is different with every partner. I’ve had many partners and mostly it’s a bit underwhelming. You get the odd ones you just click with and have great sex. But no two lovers are the same, so I doubt very much that your lover is expecting anything in particular- they just like being with you. I often find the most experienced men to be the most crap in bed, I assume because rather than get to know a woman they just trot out the same moves.

Nobody else can do you and nobody expects you to have sex like anybody else - I hope that makes sense.

I often find the most experienced men to be the most crap in bed, I assume because rather than get to know a woman they just trot out the same moves.

I know. The best sex i ever had was with a man who was inexperienced because we were doing it together and I didn't feel any pressure. But the confidence I gained through that didn't last. The worst sex has been with someone who assured me he had great technique and had always been complimented on his prowess. He was a friend I thought I might learn something from. I didn't.

I think you think that you’re unlovable

You're right, I do. I have no positive relationship experiences to draw on or to reassure myself with. I can't imagine anyone falling in love with me and i feel overwhelmed by my inadequacies at times - not just sexually but all the ways in which i feel I fail as an adult human. This is partly why I can't have a fwb or casual thing. Friendship with nothing else would be fine. A relationship would be great. But I know I can (just about) do the 'I don't matter' meaningless sex with someone. I want to be able to have the whole thing. And, if I'm honest, this is the only man I've ever thought/felt like that about.

It's stupid, I feel really frustrated by not being able to bring it up with him. All I need to say is, "Can you sit down, I want to talk to you about something." Two seconds of bravery is all it would take. Once I'd started, it would be fine. His feelings (in any direction) aren't going to be changed by me bringing it up - I'll just know what they are and, as I'm not scared of the outcome, it shouldn't be difficult. But it is.

Actually, I think what I'm scared of is him pitying me or whatever other thoughts he might have about me even thinking more might be a possibility.

I was talking to my close colleague yesterday. She's 16 years older and like my 'work mum' (I don't have a mum and, when I did, I couldn't have gone to her with something like this.) I told her about all the help he gave with the house sort/move and how he is with my daughter and the time we spend together (every weekend and often/usually once in the week). Her response was the same as everyone's here and I do understand why. (My own mum's response would be 1, why would he be interested in you and 2, you should be giving him sex for all the work he's done, that what he'll be expecting)

I think I'm scared of hearing that he cares about me but doesn't fancy me l or loves me but isn't in love with me because it would just reinforce all the negative things I think/feel about myself.

Thinkivepulledsommat

That Thrive programme sounds interesting. I will look into it. I'd never heard of it until you mentioned it but a child i know has just been referred for it! I can see you can buy workbooks. I might get one and give it a go. Thanks for the recommendation.

I agree with you about therapy. I've found it to be all about understanding and identifying root causes but with little help to actually make positive changes. When therapy has addressed strategies, I still come back to, "But how do I know that's a situation where my thinking is flawed and I'm not just right?"

I've even started wondering this week if he comes round because he prefers my daughter's company to mine. Not in a dodgy way, of course, just that she is funny and engaging and endearing and full of teenage bonkersness and I'm riddled with self doubt and insecurities that are evident when someone gets close to me even though I never talk about them The logical part of my brain tells me that we come as a package and he is showing me that he accepts that package. The emotional part of my brain tells me she is more fun and better company than I am

This thread is really helpful. Thanks for the comments. It is helping me to clarify my thinking.

I'm also just really conscious that the relationship board is full of threads at the moment where poor relationships are tolerated or people are being 'used' for company to alleviate the boredom of lockdown...

I actually think you just need to find a good man. Yeah yeah I'm sure that's not easy - certainly if reading MN is anything to go by.
Concentrate your efforts on first finding a connection with someone. There will be understanding, lovely men out there. Maybe even women (have you considered that?).
I know though that every bit of advice (especially this) will seem easier said than done.

I think you have found a lovely man op. The work you need to do is on yourself. It seems incredibly difficult to think positively about yourself when you’ve thought negatively for so long, but it’s actually simple. You learn to identify your negative thoughts (‘catch’ yourself at it) and replace them with a positive one. It feels so fake at first, but the more you talk to yourself positively the more you start to believe it. I can feel it happening in myself.
So, instead of ‘my daughter is more fun than me, that’s probably why he comes’ you could replace that with ‘We are a fun household to be around, and that is all down to me’. Then add in something like ‘He loves spending time with me’ for good measure! Even if you don’t believe it now, if you say it enough you will start to.

A belief is just a thought we keep on thinking.

Yes sorry I've read your post properly. You HAVE. So skip to working on that connection. Go slow. We are programmed to think we need to move from nought to fabulous orgasm in 2 minutes. It's rarely like that x

A belief is just a thought we keep on thinking

Yes, you're right. But I'm less likely to be hurt holding negative belief, I guess. I sometimes read threads on here where a woman is adamant that she knows her boyfriend/partner loves her and yet everything about her post makes it obvious that he doesn't. I don't want to be like that.

I keep coming back to, "But what if I'm right?" That's what stops me changing my belief patterns.

So, instead of ‘my daughter is more fun than me, that’s probably why he comes’ you could replace that with ‘We are a fun household to be around, and that is all down to me’.

I can see that that is a healthier belief to hold. But also that doesn't make it true.

Maybe even women (have you considered that?).

Yes, i have. But I'm not sexually attracted to women at all!

I have made some changes in the way I think. And some quite big ones. But some of these core beliefs I'm finding difficult to change.

I think you’re also afraid of getting something started with him, getting afraid again and either withdrawing or repeating old habits. I don’t think he’d let you, for a start. I think he’s man enough to stand up to you and call you on it.

I think you’re also afraid of getting something started with him, getting afraid again and either withdrawing or repeating old habits.

Yes, i am. What if it's a mistake? I don't think we'd recover the friendship a second time.

I dreamt about him last night.

In my dream, he was staying in my spare room. I went in to give him a cup of tea in the morning and he was cuddled up to a sleeping woman in her underwear. She was very different to me - different physique; different ethnicity; different hair colour/style etc. I felt very betrayed but also a.sense of inevitability. It was a relief to realise it was only a dream!

It's clearly playing on my mind.

Yes, you're right. But I'm less likely to be hurt holding negative belief, I guess.'

Sorry but this is delusional thinking. You're just as likely to be hurt you just think it'll hurt less. It won't, it'll just give you the opportunity to beat yourself up even more (see, I was right) and what's worse is you won't get to experience the joy that's available now! It's clear from your need to know where you stand that you're already involved and fearful of being hurt.

I think he's very aware, even if only subconsciously, of the belief system you're running - put very eloquently by a PP along the lines of you can have a casual sexual relationship or a deep friendship but not the two together. If he suggested you got back together officially, would you break it off again? Is he stuck between a rock and a hard place?

So what would you like? Can you articulate that to yourself? And could you use that as a basis for a conversation? As in 'I've really enjoyed these last few weeks and I'd like to give it another go, what do you think?' You do have some agency here it's not all down to his desires, wants and needs.

You're just as likely to be hurt you just think it'll hurt less. It won't, it'll just give you the opportunity to beat yourself up even more (see, I was right) and what's worse is you won't get to experience the joy that's available now!

I see what you're saying. But it isn't the same. I've never had my heart broken, for example. I do miss out on stuff, maybe, but I don't know if that's on offer currently and you can't miss what you've never had. I'd like to experience it but my emotions are quite level - I don't have huge romantic highs or lows, for example. And I see the pain it causes others. It's easier to remain a bit shut off emotionally.

If he suggested you got back together officially, would you break it off again? Is he stuck between a rock and a hard place?

Honestly? I don't know.

If I'm honest, I'd probably prefer him to say he wants friendship or fwb.

I'd be happy/contented/safe with friendship.
I could tell him fwb wasn't for me and just keep the friendship.

A relationship is much harder for me to contemplate. It's what I'd like but I don't know how to do that. It scares me.

He might be afraid to bring it up with you because he thinks you might head for the hills if he does. We (trauma victims) are notorious for living in our inner world to avoid being hurt in the actual world. The reality is that we’re adults and can survive a heartbreak. It sucks, but it’s not as bad as what we grew up with that left us traumatized in the first place.