Why does this happen? Would like to hear from any men too.

[ColdInTheUtility]

I'm late 30s. I've a friend who is the same age as me. Physically, we're very different - she's 5'8, blonde and a size 20. I'm 5'3, brunette and a size 12. We're both single.

We were discussing our relationship histories recently and she was surprised that every man I've dated has either commented negatively on my weight/size directly or made it clear that they prefer slim women - hence being single! Whereas she has never had that.

She is very popular with men and is never short of male attention. Her last boyfriend adored her. Pre-covid, she found plenty of lovers online and in real life etc and not one has ever said anything other than they love her curves, love her body etc. Not one man she has been involved with (either in a relationship or casually) has ever made a negative comment about her body.

We were both bit surprised that our experiences are so different and couldn'treally explain it..

I'd say that we're quite similar in terms of confidence generally and life experiences and she is more outgoing than I am. But neither of us can explain this vastly different experience when it comes to men so we thought we'd seek the wisdom of mumsnet.

The men you are with OP seem to have way too much say on your looks, they comment that they can see the real you and not too much make up
. Choose nicer men!

My comment was that if they have an issue with a size 12 body they shouldn’t be dating a woman with a size 12 body .

That's exactly how I feel about it.

It's not like I started seeing them when I was 8 stone and went up to 12.

What sort of comments do men make?

It's a combination of things. Just throwaway comments about how i would look better if I lost a few pounds (it's only ever 'a few pounds'). Asking if I don't wear jeans because they don't suit my figure because everyone wears jeans. Comments about ex girlfriends being really hot and cheating on them and knowing that I wouldn't (have the opportunity to) do that. Comments that I look slimmer when I'm dressed. Complimenting other women whilst saying nothing complimentary about me at all. Avoiding touching me during sex or in bed. I don't mean avoiding sexual touching, just no putting their arm around me or avoiding touching stomach if they do. No stroking or caressing. Nothing appreciative. It just makes me feel that I must be disgusting to them. Overhearing men I'm not involved with but who are out with me socially in a group laughing about my figure. Being aware that men I'm seeing are avoiding standing to close to me when we're out so that strangers might not realise we are together...

I was at a pub listening to a band and when I left the dance floor, men approaching me to make negative comments about my bum. That sort of thing.

I'm just going about my life minding my own business, doing my own thing and they just think it's acceptable to pass a negative comment on my body presumably because its presence has offended them.

So it's really not even that I'm just making poor dating choices.

Just that sort of thing really.

Not, "Eurgh, you're gross!" comments. It's mostly very subtle but unmistakable at the same time.

It's what they don't say as much as what they do.

It's normal for someone to be appreciative/complimentary of the person they're dating. But I don't get that.

@crochetmonkey74

The men you are with OP seem to have way too much say on your looks, they comment that they can see the real you and not too much make up . Choose nicer men!

I think that’s the problem . Men can seem really nice when you choose to date them . When they are all friendly and no nasty comments. . Then once she starts dating them THATS when the comments begins . I am pretty sure that’s what the OP is saying , please correct me if I’m wrong OP . I know at least for me this is what happened . I didn’t ‘choose’ nasty men . I did t have low self esteem or whatever . I would meet men who were lovely at first and once they were dating that’s when the comments began

OP that's pretty heart breaking to read and I'm not surprised you're fed up.

The man you've been intimate with sound like they have real problems. Like a complete detachment or fear of intimacy. Touching and caressing your partner, should be a natural part of sex. Completely avoiding all kinds of touch apart from sexual organs sounds awful. And refusing to touch your stomach?! Weird behaviour.

Men in clubs and bars being rude - I could write a book on it. They're fucking twats.

OP this goes beyond someone making cruel comments about your weight into complete neurosis and fear of intimacy. I advise you to completely back away from any kind of dating for the time being and try to work out why you are going for these nutjobs.

Bloody hell OP - that all sounds really horrible. I don't know why you are getting so much of this but you don't deserve it and there are men out there who don't do it - as your friend's experiences show. By that I don't mean change anything about yourself, just that it's possible.

@ColdInTheUtility

It's more the negative body shaming comments. She has never had anyone comment negatively at all. I've had them a lot.

It's just shit. I feel like I'm destined to he single because I'm not small enough to attract men who like slim women but not big enough to attract men who like larger women!

@ColdInTheUtility I thought size 12 was the average size (or even below average) considering the overweight/obesity crisis the UK has? At size 12 you'll be smaller than a lot of women, whether you're curvy or not. It seems you're unlucky with men or go for ones who treat women badly.

A lot of men have also unfortunately had their expectations of women's bodies formed by pornography so any woman who deviates from this body "norm" that society has allowed men to indulge in, would look abnormal / less desirable to them.

I don't agree with this social media/porn excuse. It's not like men have never seen another woman outside social media. They had mums, aunts, sisters, cousins, school friends, see women in the street, have work colleagues.

If they use their eyes they can see that women come in all shapes and sizes. So to suggest that they don't understand that women are different to photo shopped images on instagram isn't giving them much credit. I've seen men on social media with abs and 1% body fat but I can see that not all men look like that and don't expect them to. I also don't think my bf doesn't look like that on the outside but will miraculously transform into Adonis when he takes off his clothes.

I also think that the average size in the UK is 16, not 12 but could be wrong.

@username44416
‘I don't agree with this social media/porn excuse. It's not like men have never seen another woman outside social media. They had mums, aunts, sisters, cousins, school friends, see women in the street, have work colleagues. ‘

They usually are not looking at these women in a sexual way or evaluating their bodies . If you read the research pornography definitely shapes the expectations many men have of women’s bodies
And also if one listens to what many women are saying they are actually experiencing with men

Although I do agree it’s not an ‘excuse ‘ for them to behave this way !

[quote Countingthebeat]@username44416
‘I don't agree with this social media/porn excuse. It's not like men have never seen another woman outside social media. They had mums, aunts, sisters, cousins, school friends, see women in the street, have work colleagues. ‘

They usually are not looking at these women in a sexual way or evaluating their bodies . If you read the research pornography definitely shapes the expectations many men have of women’s bodies
And also if one listens to what many women are saying they are actually experiencing with men[/quote]
If they're not looking at these women in a sexual way then how are they getting sexual partners? In order to have sex, you need to find someone to have sex with. We meet people at work for example. They must be looking at some of their female colleagues in a sexual way.

I am a woman, are you mansplaining?

@username44416
I am also a woman and I am saying sure they have aunts mothers etc who are various sizes but I am presuming that they are not looking at these aunts and mothers and sisters in a sexual manner
Which makes it entirely different to how they would look at a partner
And btw I doubt many men would openly admit porn changes their expectations lol

You’re claim was that they know woman come in various shapes and sizes because they have other females in their lives of various sizes and I’m simply saying that they likely don’t even consider the sizes or bodies of these women much
When it comes to sex and partners that’s when the expectations from porn come into play for many men

Why are you asking a woman to listen to women?

I mentioned the plethora of women that men will have seen throughout their lives so that they will have seen that women are a variety of sizes. As well as relatives I mentioned school, work, the street but they will also see women in bars, clubs and other venues. My point being, they have more experience of the female form that instagram or porn.

I believe that their opinions on pubic hair is formed by porn and many young women talk about that, but not body shape.

I think you need to set your stall out with dating. If you are on line mention in your profile that you do not want contacting by any dick head who thinks they can comment on your body. State it like that.
If you care someone tell them straight that you didn't persue the last guy you dated because he said X and Y. Make it clear. Don't wait for them to start this bullshit. It's awful how some men think you only exist for their benefit. If someone comments on your appearance say"Who the fuck asked you? " Stop accepting this treatment. Don't go near the low life.

@username44416

Why are you asking a woman to listen to women?

I mentioned the plethora of women that men will have seen throughout their lives so that they will have seen that women are a variety of sizes. As well as relatives I mentioned school, work, the street but they will also see women in bars, clubs and other venues. My point being, they have more experience of the female form that instagram or porn.

I believe that their opinions on pubic hair is formed by porn and many young women talk about that, but not body shape.

Why am I asking a woman to listen to women ? Because anyone can ignore anyone , male or female So you believe opinions on female public hair can be influenced by porn but not body shape . Wow

Perhaps start here and I’ll hit you up with another 10-20 articles by professionals and universities that state otherwise if you like

www.researchgate.net/publication/318615692_Pornography_consumption_and_its_association_with_sexual_concerns_and_expectations_among_young_men_and_women

@Onlinedilema

I think you need to set your stall out with dating. If you are on line mention in your profile that you do not want contacting by any dick head who thinks they can comment on your body. State it like that. If you care someone tell them straight that you didn't persue the last guy you dated because he said X and Y. Make it clear. Don't wait for them to start this bullshit. It's awful how some men think you only exist for their benefit. If someone comments on your appearance say"Who the fuck asked you? " Stop accepting this treatment. Don't go near the low life.

That’s a very good idea . That way you could be weeding out those who think they can cross that boundary

Ok, so you're going to hit me with a load of research that says that men expect all women to look like women in porn?

We're not talking about sexual expectations or pubic hair, we're talking about body shape. Because the first doc you sent is on sexual expectation, not body shape.

The average size of a woman in the UK is 16 but men have never seen a woman that shape, and expect her to take off her clothes and be a size 6?

Hey. Can't wait to see this research...

@username44416

Ok, so you're going to hit me with a load of research that says that men expect all women to look like women in porn?

We're not talking about sexual expectations or pubic hair, we're talking about body shape. Because the first doc you sent is on sexual expectation, not body shape.

The average size of a woman in the UK is 16 but men have never seen a woman that shape, and expect her to take off her clothes and be a size 6?

Hey. Can't wait to see this research...

Wow so you didn’t even bother to scan the articles because IF you did you would have seen that several times it refers to the unrealistic expectations from porn . There’s literally a mountain of research showing that porn influences men’s expections and anyone who cared less which yoh clearly don’t would look However rather than spoon feed you I’ll head you I. The right direction in the case that your ever inclined to educate yourself Professor Gail Dines Particularly pornland but other works online University of Oklahoma research Various Ted talks on this exact topic

But perhaps read what I initially sent if you care less

Sorry OP not meaning to hijack your thread . Whether this is the issue with the men your coming across or not I thought it was worth mentioning .

I've come to the conclusion that the more attractive a woman is, the more negative comments she receives. Thats not even thinking about men who do that negging thing with women they don't have a chance with. I have several young, attractive friends, and the things they have said to them about their appearance is unbelievable. One was recently dumped for "not being plain enough" as a certain degree of plainness is apparently desirable for a man (I suppose in case the woman has other options). I have a very pretty, short blonde friend and she gets constant rude comments about her height (she is 5 feet 2).

I think its something to do with people thinking you can take, or maybe deserve, more criticism the closer you are to some ideal they have in mind.

The best way of dealing with it is to say "Did you actually say .." and repeat their comment back to them. And then say "Where on earth did you learn it was acceptable to make comments on someone's appearance?" and if they try to argue back say something like "So lets assess you faults then. Where shall we start..."

@Countingthebeat I read the article. Perhaps you should listen to women more. It talked about sexual expectations and insecurity, it focused on genitals as well as they can be surgically enhanced. You told me that you had a load of peer reviewed articles where it said that men did not know what women look like outside porn.

I explained that men can clearly see that women come in all shapes and sizes and can understand how photoshopped images aren't representative of all women. You told me how they aren't aware of these differences due to porn. You've provided no evidence to prove your point. It's up to you to prove your point, not me.

No it’s not actually on me to educate you . I do have a stack of research that talk about this exact issue.
Much of it is in hard copy like pornland and I’m not going to sit here and scan it so you can ignore it . Ive pointed you in the direction to find it yourself but as you show you are not really good at this . Below is a direct quote from the article I initially sent . It refers to appearance NOT henitals . The articles mentions appearance many time ! But you ignore that . Of course it does mention genitals on the first page so perhaps that’s as far as you got

You say it was up to me to prove my point however you tried to make the Point that men are able to tell the difference between photoshopped images etc and are not affected by porn . This is not a default position that is accepted by all . You did NOT prove your position which one piece of research. No once did you point me in the direction of university research of professor authored books that back up your position .
‘These findings are consistent withhistorical research suggesting that exposure to sexually explicitimages such as pornography is linked to consumers’ dissatis-faction with their partner’s appearance and may create unreal-istic expectations for sexual performance (Kenrick et al., 1989;Zillmann & Bryant, 1988

There are extensive debates here on porn . The harms it does and many people have given very good information . I’m not going to revive the the wheel . Anyone who is interested in getting educated on the matter and being honest about how it affects relationships can find the information of they want to
I’ll leave my conversation with you there as in truth I don’t believe you are truly interested in considering the data that shows you alternatives to your very ill informed views and we are in effect taking the OP thread way off track

@02Countingthebeat You started off as a condescending arse, and you finished as one. As least you're consistent.

Size 12 is borderline fat to men who like skinny women. Not sure why they can’t see that though when they date them!