SIL and money issues

[ChopinandChampagne]

I recently lost my DH and I thought that it would be nice to give some money to my DGDs, both toddlers, to set aside for their future as a gift from him. Realistically, they will not remember him, but I thought that if they have some money to spend on travel or driving lessons or to help with their university costs or whatever, they would think of him and know how much he loved them, even though he didn't live to see them grow up.

I did some internet research and the suggestions were for a Junior Isa, which a parent would need to set up, and I would then pay into, and the child could access at 18. Alternatively, a savings account, which I would be able to set up as a grandparent, as long as I produce a copy of the birth certificate, which the child can access and take over at 16.

So far, so good and, I thought, relatively uncontroversial, so I suggested it to my DD and said that I wanted to give each of the DGDs £10k from DH and the options. I said that I wanted it to be a separate account and that suggested that she open a Junior Isa or that I should open a savings account. Her response was that she would have to discuss it with SIL and I said fine, thought no more it. Then, I sense that there is a bit of tension and DD says she wants to set up a telephone call with both her and SIL one evening, to discuss the matter after the DGDs are in bed. This was a text, so I reply saying fine, is now a good time, but DD said not, but we could schedule a couple of days later, but only if she has completed her coursework for her studies.

Then, a couple of days ago, I receive an email from SIL, from whom I never hear anything direct, advising me that if I really want to put money in an account, he will open one, but that he thinks that it is a bad idea, as inflation will erode the money. He thinks I should invest it in gold bullion or some other specific account (he says he has recently opened one for DD), and he provided links to various websites.

The tone of the email comes across, not as friendly advice, but telling me what to do. I have said that I will have a rethink, but I am worried about offending him if I don't follow his advice. I feel that he is trying to control how I invest the money. He refers to it as my wanting to invest for the DGD's future, which it is partly, but it is also about wanting the DGDs to remember or be reminded of DH. I don't really want to invest in bullion, as I think it's a bit volatile, and the idea of a bank account is that the DGDs would get the bank statements and maybe learn how to save.

Does anyone have any advice on how best to handle this diplomatically? There is quite a bit of history with SIL (Lobster Boy for those who remember my previous threads), but things are on a reasonably even keel at present and I currently have a good relationship with DD, which I don't want to upset. She says that there is no rush to decide how best to invest the money, it is important to get it right.

There's no bidding war chopin its a lie - they need further funds to set up what they want.

This is meticulous well planned abuse.

@ChopinandChampagne
So many insightful replies to your last post.
They're probably not what you want to read but they are wise words.

I'm sorry to say, whether DD1 is being coercively controlled or not, the bottom
line is you are being played like a violin.
As someone said upthread - Pay per view - your daughter and grandchildren.

Disengage.
You are not a cash cow.
How blo*dy dare they !

…and who buys a property without seeing it - madness!

And why Ireland with its visa and residency issues?! Could they not find somewhere remote and isolated enough in the UK? Is LB worried that he's losing control?

@CraftyYankee

And why Ireland with its visa and residency issues?! Could they not find somewhere remote and isolated enough in the UK? Is LB worried that he's losing control?

Exactly. Possibly a technique to frighten you, OP, this proposal to move to Ireland, and basically cut you off completely, especially from the grandchildren.

Wow she has no shame, does she?

Why are they bidding on properties if they are 30k short? Its almost like they think you will roll over and pay up regardless. Using poor innocent children as pawns how truly vile.
Its LB you will be giving money to. In the event that one day they split up, he will make sure if she leaves, she leaves with very little and being so brainwashed by then will almost certainly sigh away any rights.
In regards to helping fund a property ( not sure about Ireland) but in UK we gifted my stepdaughter a modest amount to help with deposit. We had to sign it was a gift, not repayable at any time.
If you do not say its a gift, they may find getting the rest of the funding hard ( effectively owing you 30k will be detrimental as already in debt) so if you agree to a loan while signing its a gift you have no legal recourse in future at all.
Be careful 30k for one visit is a lot akin to a celebrity appearance!

Well as an Irish person I'm pretty unimpressed with two unvaccinated English people intending to come over here and presumably sign on for benefits.

They won't get this house, the agent is wise to them. He's a local, and has seen this pie in the sky stuff from foreigners before.

I'm so sorry that once again their contact towards you has been about money again.

I do think you need to be very clear that the only money she will be getting what has been stipulated in DH will. And that you have no available money to 'loan' them, and can she please not bring up money again. But be very aware the contact they were going to allow you next week will probably be cancelled because of some bogus reason.

Also if by some miracle they don't then please have some one with you so they can not bully you into giving them the money.

I think he had a good intention £10K in 12-15 years are going to deflate unless you invest. I think he's trying to do what's best for everyone financially. Agree that he missed the sentimental part of it completely. It's a good idea to keep talking and establish good communication.

Ah yes, I forgot about the unvaccinated part. LB must surely know this is never going to happen. I wonder if the long game on his side has been leading up to this £30k ask for the difference to get the property?

Be strong OP. And possibly arrange to meet DD1 somewhere other than her house so you can make a quick escape if the money requests don't stop? (That's if the visit even goes ahead which is unlikely if you clarify that no funds will be forthcoming.)

Hope all is well with DDs2&3.

Thank you so much everyone, I am overwhelmed by your support and taking time out of your weekend to post.

I received a message from DD1 yesterday evening that she has now received confirmation from her uncle about her inheritance, which she can send to the agent as part of the proof of funds. As they are currently £30k short for the property and the inheritance is over £100k, I am not unduly concerned that there will be any further requests now, but I hope I am right.

DD1 did sound very embarrassed when she spoke to me, and I knew that she was psyching herself up to raise something difficult, so I asked her what it was that she wanted to say. To be honest, my first thought was that they were going to cancel my visit on some pretext. It is LB's grandparents diamond wedding anniversary, so I thought they might raise that as a reason. However, LB's mother told me last week that only she and LB's father are visiting, as her FIL (ie LB's grandfather) is a recluse and hates seeing people; he is not even that keen at seeing them, and will need to be coaxed to leave the house. Now, I wonder who that reminds me of! .

I was straight with DD1 yesterday. I said that the most I could do would be to lend £10k on the strict understanding that it was paid back as soon as she received her inheritance, to which she replied 'of course'. I said that all of my money was tied up in property (which it is, until I have sorted out DH's estate), that I just didn't have £30k lying around, not many people did. Also, many people would be buying with a mortgage, so was it cash only, and was this 'best and final offers'?

She didn't seem to know, but agreed that it was short notice for people to have to find proof of whole funds. She was talking about maybe asking LB's DPs to help with the balance, but I don't know why she came to me first. I think maybe she expected me to chase up BIL, but why would I? It's nothing to do with me, and I would be far too embarrassed to do so. In fact, I am embarrassed that she has been chasing him. I said that it must have been awful for her uncle to have had to deal with all of this, on top of everything else. I said I was sorry that I had mentioned the inheritance to her and I thought that BIL had done very well to get probate so quickly. She said that they hadn't started looking to buy any property until BIL had confirmed the position.

DD2 and DD3, on the other hand, show no interest in the inheritance at present. DD2 was really upset when she received a message from her uncle, asking for her bank details. DD3 thinks she would like to use it to enrich her life in some way in the future and will remember her Dad and aunt in doing so, with love and gratitude.

Minty - good luck with your house purchase! I am, of course, still cautious, as I don't want to be hurt again. It's sad, because it means that I can't have the spontaneous joy in the DGC which I would have liked, but we are where we are. I think that I am more philosophical now and, possibly, more realistic.

I actually feel very sorry for LB's DPs in all this, who have helped LB and DD1 in many ways, have formed a close bond with the DGC, and will miss them dreadfully, if they move. I think that they are as perplexed as I am about the wisdom of it all, but also recognise that there is nothing that they can do, other than advise. They told us at that brief meeting over coffee 17 months ago, that LB and DD1 are not receptive to advice. I don't know if I have already said, but I am meant to be seeing them on Friday evening, as they seem keen to meet up again.

Sssloou - wonderful and perceptive advice as ever! I think things are ok'ish. I have the two full days planned, which will be relatively short, with plenty of down time in the hotel. I need to pace myself, I know. My gut feeling is that things have shifted a bit, that DD1 is vulnerable right now. It will be just the two of us for lunch in a restaurant on the second day, and I want it to be a positive experience, for both of us.

Neil - I won't be bullied, even if it means another estrangement. I actually want to help all of my DCs, but they have to help themselves too. I don't want to enable or subsidise people who won't work or who just expect things to be handed to them on a platter. DH and I weren't given things and didn't expect it. We had love and support and opportunities, for which we were grateful.

Ghost - total madness to buy a property you haven't seen, I completely agree. Even more mad to buy a property which you may never be able to visit, because you refuse to accept the country's vaccination requirements. This seems to have become their new 'cause', in the wake of UKIP and Islamophobia, how it is all a dastardly totalitarian plot to have everyone vaccinated. She asks questions such as what jab I have had, and sends links to articles and demonstrations etc. In fact, she displays the same zeal that she used to have for veganism! I don't really rise to it, I just say well, yes, that's up to you, which it is. But it's also up to other countries to determine their own entry criteria.

CraftyYankee and CJSmith - I don't know whether it's about control, but it's an interesting point and, at least subconsciously, I think you may well be right. It concerns me that DD1 and DGC should be completely isolated from family and friends. It's as though they are his possessions, and he demands all of their time, attention and loyalty (attention to others being a sign of disloyalty).

Minty - regarding the gift which you made for your stepdaughter's deposit, I assume that there was a mortgage involved, which is not the case here. But I share your concerns.

Elspeth - I sincerely hope that you are right! DD1 says that the market to buy property in Ireland is frenzied at present, to the extent where the agents won't accept any new enquiries/registrations.

I am looking forward to seeing DD1 and the DGDs next week but, even more, I am looking forward to the visit being over, if that makes sense.

Can you get a written agreement from them that they owe you the 10k and are to repay it by X date before you hand it over? (And the first deposit…)
It would help your DD when it all goes tits up.
(*Also that this money will be returned should this house fall through.)

A response saying that they don't need your £10k now that they know about the inheritance might be useful. I'm curious why you even offered that money? It seems like you can't stop yourself whenever she comes begging. Don't you think that's what they are counting on?

'I won't be bullied, even if it means another estrangement.'
But yet you offered £10k knowing full well it wouldn't be repayed. I'm sure you've said recently that you wouldn't be lending them any money.

Please don't take her word as gospel re the property market. Yes, in the cities, I gather that property is pricey, but even that's anecdotal on my part.

I wouldn't know enough to make a statement about the property market in general, and definitely not about rural areas, which from your description is where they are proposing to buy.

I'm still extremely concerned you were happy to loan them even £10k. Like a PP you have said before you wouldn't.

Don't enable this nonsense. Are you still seeing your counsellor? You really need to work on your boundaries.

Be very careful at the visit.

I'm not sure the OP is listening to really wise advice on here.
I too was surprised that Chopin was offering €10,000.

Re property in Ireland
I know in Dublin in recent months during lockdown, people were supposed to go Sale Agreed before setting foot in a property. Then, when things opened up a little, some people on seeing what they had Sale Agreed ( almost bought ) decided to pull out.

The market is so competitive in Dublin anyway that things you wouldn't consider last year are now out of your price range.
Because of Covid19 and the possibility of working from home,more people are considering buying in the countryside in Ireland apparently. Rents too were sky high so buying your own property is attractive.
Advice from the best known Irish economist is not to buy now.
Since the crash many people were burned and in negative equity.

Thank you for your replies and I really want to apologise if it seems that I am not listening to your wise advice, or wasting your time. I assure you that i do read everything carefully and am so grateful for the tremendous support. I suppose my boundaries do need a few more fences to be built, but I do think that I am improving, although I am clearly still a work in progress.

I suppose I didn't see the advance to DD as a risk, in that I know that the inheritance will be coming through in a week or two. I would have made sure that there was an agreement with BIL to pay me the £10k direct.

I am disappointed that she asked me though and it all felt very awkward, on both sides. I certainly didn't roll over and say, yes, of course dear, it's a pleasure. On the contrary, I said it was difficult and that she should simply write to the agents and say that they were serious buyers, and that they would provide confirmation of inheritance from the executor in the next day or two.

I didn't feel that she was trying to blackmail me in respect of seeing the DGDs, but that she was desperate to have a chance of buying the property. They are obsessed with purchasing a property, almost any property, anywhere, with land, so that they can pursue their dream. I genuinely think that they have lost touch with reality.

Lady Eloise - I would be grateful if you could kindly let me have the name of the Irish economist, who sounds very sensible.
I know from my own experience in the London property market, just how cyclical the market can be. I tried to explain this to DD, in neutral terms, saying of course everybody wants a small holding, following COVID, but a lot of people will find it too much, and there will probably be much more choice in a couple of years when they sell the properties on. She got a bit defensive, and I said that I didn't mean she and LB wouldn't cope, but that a lot of others wouldn't.

Their whole raison d'etre is, at present, based on this purchase. But she is also very anxious about everything, as she should be. When I visit and, especially when we have lunch, I hope to be able to discuss things in a relaxed way, to show myself as a support rather than someone who is against them. I actually believe- whether I am misguided or not - that she is listening more. I am probably the only person she regularly talks to, apart from LB and his DPs.

This article will give you a little bit of background. It focuses primarily on the market in Dublin, which needless to say, is a very different ballgame to what they are proposing to buy.

www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-s-property-market-what-goes-up-can-still-come-down-1.4598487

www.daft.ie will give you a good indicator of prices in various parts of the country. Try some of the counties in the West, just to get a feel for prices in counties Sligo, Mayo, Leitrim, Galway and Roscommon.

In relation to a frenzied bidding war, or whatever was the phrase used, I know a property near relatives of mine, in rural Ireland took quite a while to sell. And in that case, it wasn't in an isolated area, and the house was in turnkey condition. The family who bought it from the original owners had put top class everything into it. It was still on the market for quite some time.
There may well be local interest of course in where they are looking, e.g the owner of an adjoining property and that obviously would have an impact.

Hi OP, I have been reading this thread and wishing you well through it, and all the strength and peace you deserve.

I have de-lurked to say that LB’s DPs sound as though they are going to be allies - at least in terms of not encouraging DGDs to move to another country.

What do they make of their son not having a job when he has a family to pay for? I wonder if they (LBs DP) have been putting pressure on him and he is now running away again, this time from them?

David Mc Williams is the Irish economist.
I hope my previous post wasn't too harsh.
You sound like a lovely, gentle lady and I don't like you being taken advantage of by LB.

I would be v careful of LB parents.

They colluded with him and DD1 to exclude you and your lovely DH from their lives, marriage and birth of your DGC for many years.

Cruel and unforgivable IMHO.

The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.

Look closer at LBs father - it seems that it’s that side of the family that is dysfunctional.

I agree with @Sssloou. Don’t involve the outlaws. Not only do you not know what they’re thinking about this, it is likely that it will get back to LB and he will use it to create further divide. It would be couched as “Proof of @ChopinandChampagne’s divisiveness”.

I think you're making a big mistake by helping them buy this house. It's an idiotic dream. A fantasy they have done very little research into and have no backup plan. They'll be begging for more money in 6 month's time.