SIL and money issues

[ChopinandChampagne]

I recently lost my DH and I thought that it would be nice to give some money to my DGDs, both toddlers, to set aside for their future as a gift from him. Realistically, they will not remember him, but I thought that if they have some money to spend on travel or driving lessons or to help with their university costs or whatever, they would think of him and know how much he loved them, even though he didn't live to see them grow up.

I did some internet research and the suggestions were for a Junior Isa, which a parent would need to set up, and I would then pay into, and the child could access at 18. Alternatively, a savings account, which I would be able to set up as a grandparent, as long as I produce a copy of the birth certificate, which the child can access and take over at 16.

So far, so good and, I thought, relatively uncontroversial, so I suggested it to my DD and said that I wanted to give each of the DGDs £10k from DH and the options. I said that I wanted it to be a separate account and that suggested that she open a Junior Isa or that I should open a savings account. Her response was that she would have to discuss it with SIL and I said fine, thought no more it. Then, I sense that there is a bit of tension and DD says she wants to set up a telephone call with both her and SIL one evening, to discuss the matter after the DGDs are in bed. This was a text, so I reply saying fine, is now a good time, but DD said not, but we could schedule a couple of days later, but only if she has completed her coursework for her studies.

Then, a couple of days ago, I receive an email from SIL, from whom I never hear anything direct, advising me that if I really want to put money in an account, he will open one, but that he thinks that it is a bad idea, as inflation will erode the money. He thinks I should invest it in gold bullion or some other specific account (he says he has recently opened one for DD), and he provided links to various websites.

The tone of the email comes across, not as friendly advice, but telling me what to do. I have said that I will have a rethink, but I am worried about offending him if I don't follow his advice. I feel that he is trying to control how I invest the money. He refers to it as my wanting to invest for the DGD's future, which it is partly, but it is also about wanting the DGDs to remember or be reminded of DH. I don't really want to invest in bullion, as I think it's a bit volatile, and the idea of a bank account is that the DGDs would get the bank statements and maybe learn how to save.

Does anyone have any advice on how best to handle this diplomatically? There is quite a bit of history with SIL (Lobster Boy for those who remember my previous threads), but things are on a reasonably even keel at present and I currently have a good relationship with DD, which I don't want to upset. She says that there is no rush to decide how best to invest the money, it is important to get it right.

Just read this whole thread - remember the original LB one - no practical advice on the financials but just wanted to say how sorry I am to read of the loss of your wonderful DH, so sad that you cannot grieve him in peace but instead are dominated by the worries about DD1. Sending you & your family unmumsnetty hugs

So much wise advice.
I certainly wouldn't be telling any of them what was in the will.
Most of the posters are saying step back. Step away for a while from DD1 but I'm not sure you are listening.
Easier said than done.

I've read your threads from the start but never commented.
I have very LC family, it's heartbreaking but necessary for me.
If I were you I'd write your will and never reveal it. I wrote mine, with an accompanying letter to explain, sobbed for days and dropped it with my solicitor.
It can stay sealed till needed.
It's done. No more torturing myself.
But I never speak of it.
My love cannot be bought...no-ones can.

Glad to read your update that you aren't going to include the 6 month rule. I'd make your grandchildren beneficiaries when they reach 25. Any sooner and their parents might have a greater chance to take the money from them. Do you listen to HG Tudor? His work on narcissism is very helpful. I do think you could get some help with strategies from him.

Hi Chopin,
The 6 month rule would be fraught with difficulty
I agree with PP. leave DD1 share in trust for their children until 26! Also means it would be almost impossible for LB to contest the will. You know he’ll try if he doesn’t get what he thinks he deserves.

My GF did this and it was arranged so that money could be used for our benefit, such as school fee’s, university etc but not holidays or buying a family car. It could include the family house which the trust then has a lien on but LB would brainwash grandchildren into walking away from their share or waiting until his death.

I wouldn’t tell them in advance as you’ll just get a barrage pf begging!

They are both very cruel, I hate to say. No more sharing with them of your intentions in relation to your will, is my suggestion. The move to Ireland sound like pie in the sky, in many ways. As pp have said, maybe hoping you will jump in to help, maybe intentionally moving the children away from you and the other grandparents. Cruel.

You need to put yourself first, allow yourself space and time to grieve. Detach as much as you can from her, and him.
Enjoy the time you spend with your other daughters. They sound fantastic.

@ChopinandChampagne - I keep thinking of you and your relationship with your dh. While it was undoubtedly magical, his loss has left you so isolated and alone. Do you really not have close friends that you can confide in in real life, or have you chosen to switch off? I have decided that I need to put more effort into my female friends because I don’t want to be in this position should something ever happen to my DH. I also don’t want to make my kids my confidantes. (Not appropriate.)

(Btw - am not keeping any deep, dark secrets. Am from the shallow end of the mystery pool.)

@JonahofArk

I have followed your posts but have not replied before now. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but I think you need to stop blaming LB for everything. Your DD is making her feelings towards you and her sisters abundantly clear and she seems to be just as manipulative towards you as he seems to be towards her. She knows she has you on her hook and can drag you in or drop you as she sees fit and she knows that you are terrified of losing her or your grandchildren so you will eventually do whatever she asks. This is abusive.

In terms of the will, in your shoes I would bypass DD and LB completely, and leave DD's portion in trust to your grandchildren to access when they are say 30 years old (just to ensure that they will hopefully not be in their parents' clutches by that age). I also wouldn't tell them your financial plans. Quite frankly it is none of their business.

I think JonahofArk is sadly more on the ball about your not so DD. I suspect that she is just as responsible as LB but you don't want to face that.

I am fairly sure you are also aware that part of her/their sense of entitlement stems from having the only grandchildren thus far. It won’t have occurred to her that the other DDs are also capable of having children in the future, or maybe expect that you will die before that happens. They may even expect you to divide your estate equally between your DDs and all the grandchildren, offering them the larger share. Expectations will be huge as a result of producing so many children, I’m afraid.

Sorry - did not mean to post. Personally, I don’t believe it is wise to discuss wills with families at all. Dividing your estate into three and leaving their third to their children in trust until they’re 30, with very clear (preferably notarized) letters of intent is very, very intelligent. You have already given them a deposit and continue to pay their mobile plan, etc. I would do so if I were in this position.

Btw, my mother was more like your DD1, controlling, heavily influenced by my narcissist father. SHE left her estate tied up in trust unnecessarily. My brother has MH problems, and his share does need looking after. I am pleased that this is not my job. Mine did not. My kids and I have been screwed over by the lawyers here. She chose to listen to her Neighbour instead of reading reviews.

I have to say money left in trust that can be used for car, education, house to DGD I can see being targeted by LB.

Approach trust for car and driving lessons, given as a present by them and they use the car. Going to college or uni DHD living at home and charged board/rent. Buy a house in DGC name and they take a management fee or something.

I think leave it tied up until each of them are 30 and have had some chance of making their own way. I already said to bypass DD1 completely.

You need to think how DGC for your other 2 DDs what share would you give them? Do you divide a third of your whole estate between all DGC?

Not sure if this has already been asked - but it could be that DD1 also has ASD?

The OCD and self-harming, the childhood tantrums and the ‘transactional’ seeming behaviours in relationships could point to this - girls are very underdiagnosed and often present quite differently to boys and can mask ASD much better. I know DD3 has ASD so maybe this is something you’ve already considered?

I work in mental health and women with ASD traits and possibly EUPD (borderline personality disorder) make up a big section of our patients. The fact that DD1 changes to fit in with her partner (was vegan with one boyfriend and different with another) indicates that she’s following other people’s rules on how to behave. Women with ASD traits also seem to be more susceptible to abusive relationships - probably because they can struggle to see nuance and like things to be quite black and white (good guy / bad guy) as it feels safer for them.

If this is the case, having very clear and set boundaries (repeat catch phrases) and not getting drawn in to dramas is the only way to stay safe and healthy.

OP - it sounds like you had an amazing husband and wonderful marriage. Please be gentle and kind with yourself - it must be an awful loss.

Chopin - I'm glad you've removed the six month clause because you would potentially disinherit DD2 / 3 if they chose to live abroad / go travelling and your end was out of the blue (hit by a bus). It could have appalling unintended consequences and is very controlling. Please don't "buy" DD1 and Lobster Boy. They're too expensive and not good value!

Hope you are doing ok @ChopinandChampagne. This must all be so overwhelming.
Sending warmest wishes 💐

Thank you everyone for the supportive posts and advice. I am sorry at the delay in replying, partly because I was waiting for MN to move the thread, as wisely suggested, and partly because it has been a difficult few days. MN couldn't move the thread to 'Off the beaten track' because it is more than 30 days old, but they have taken it off 'trending' to try to keep it 'under the radar'.

Today is 7 months since DH died and tomorrow will be the first wedding anniversary without him. DD3 is coming home today to spend tomorrow with me and DD2 and we will have a low key day, probably have a takeaway and maybe watch a film together, nothing too demanding. This will be the most difficult 'first' for me, as birthdays and Christmas etc existed before I met DH, but the anniversary relates solely to him or, rather, to us.

Regarding the will, it was never my intention that DD2 or DD3 should be subject to the 'six month' clause, as trustees would be excluded. I think that I have been too fixated on death because of thinking of DH and how quickly he moved from never being ill (he had less than a week off work in 35 years) to dying. I saw DD3 earlier in the week and we were discussing spirituality and faith, which she thought might comfort me. And I said, yes I have been thinking about this and I want to have my funeral in a church according to the rites of the C of E. I have also been planning my funeral in my head. DD3 said that I had gone straight from a general discussion to talk of my funeral - and of course she was right. I need to put my affairs in order, so that I can then forget about it and try to live.

I think it was Justilou who asked whether I had real life friends to support me and the answer is yes, I am truly blessed with the number of people who care for me. My oldest friendships go back for half a century, and I have been lucky enough to find others on the journey to this point in my life. Now that lockdown is ending, I have had a lot of invitations from people, from going out for lunch or taking in an exhibition etc, to going to stay with them. And I am easing my way back in, but when I do see my friends, I know that they will be sympathetic - that's a given - but I don't want them to be my therapists. I want to look for the joy, to try to find some light after the past 18 months of darkness.

I have four friends who are widows and they are the ones I talk to about DH, because they understand. The loneliness and isolation come from the void left by DH, and that cannot be filled. It will always be there and I just have to learn to live with it, like an amputee who has to learn to adapt to a prosthesis.

Anyway, regarding the will, I will have a discretionary will trust, with strict conditions, so that it is to be used for things like education training, enrichment, or if a beneficiary is in need. Also, housing, although I hope to be able to help DD2 and DD3 to buy their own homes when they are ready. Each family ie each of the DDs and their DC, if any, should inherit a third, but it will be at the discretion of the trustees as to what the money is spent on. However, so far as I am aware, I am in good health and may live for another 30 years, so the situation could easily change before then.

I also think that I have become a bit paranoid about DD1 and, to be fair, I think she is a bit paranoid too. I guess that the trust between us has been significantly eroded and it will take some time to be fully restored, if it ever is. We had one of our telepathic moments on Wednesday evening, when I sent her a message to ask if she was ok, just as she was about to ring me. It seems that they had spent the previous few days frantically searching for properties and have offered the asking price on one in County Mayo, which had just come on the market [link removed at OP's request]
The price is low, at just under 100k euros, but it is not habitable. It seems that LB might go to Ireland for 3 months to make it habitable before they follow him. However, the neighbour had also made an offer and I haven't heard anything further from DD1, so I suspect that they haven't bought it or are still negotiating. They can't visit the property because of Covid and they are anti-vaxxer anyway, so I am not sure when they would be able to visit.

DD1 was waxing lyrical in our telephone discussion, about how it had always been their dream to have a smallholding, not to farm, but just to be self -sufficient. They are looking for a long term project. She has been researching how to buy and butcher pigs, as there is a lot of meat on them. She said you can buy 'weaners' for 50 euros, fatten them up, and then sell the meat for 200 euros. And this is a former devout vegan!

On the positive side, she said I was welcome to visit anytime, as they have no immediate plans to go anywhere, and she will take me to her local butchers, which is excellent!

Gerwurtztraminer (I love your user name!) - you have my sympathies. Your niece's DH sounds just like LB, he doesn't like people disagreeing with him either, especially women!

lego - thank you so much for the sympathy and hugs and indeed thank you to all of you for the ongoing support.

Dithercats - you are totally right, nobody's love can be bought, and I am sorry to hear about your situation.

gonow - thank you for the recommendation of H G Tudor. I haven't heard of him but I will look him up. I also have some recommendations from the incredible Ssloou, whom I had the pleasure to meet last week and who is just as wise and lovely in person as she is on this thread.

Random - you make some valid points about how LB could target monies given to DGC, but I suppose that there is a limit to what I can do.

The other thought which has been bubbling in my head, but I am not sure where I will go with it, is to set up a charity to help those with oesophageal cancer, especially in trying to make people aware of the symptoms much earlier, when there is more chance of a successful outcome. Unfortunately, most people are not diagnosed until stage 3 or 4, by which time it is usually too late and survival rates are very low. A close friend lost her mother and sister to ovarian cancer and set up a charity, which is now one of the leading charities for the detection and prevention of ovarian cancer, and has saved lots of lives. I would like to do something similar and I am sure that she would advise me how to go about it but, at present, the grief is still too raw and I don't have the energy. However, I am full of admiration for what she has achieved and would like to do something similar.

Triffidealer - You might be right about ASD, as DD3 has recently been diagnosed and her therapist told me that it is usually genetic and runs in families. With hindsight, DH's father and aunt definitely had some of the characteristics, but we just put it down to individuality and eccentricity. Thank you for you kind wishes and also to zebra.

thinking of you.

OP I'm glad MN is removing this from trending. But please think again about linking the homes that DD is looking at. That's a huge breach of privacy that could come home to roost if someone local to them is on MN. Should DD buy the one you've just linked, and someone nearby had read this thread, you'll have put her in a terrible situation.

None of us need to see those properties. It doesn't add anything to the conversation on here.

That said, I hope that the plans you have in mind will work, and that your relationship with DD1 will develop positively.

Thank you sarah, I have asked for the link to be removed. I am also thinking of asking for the whole thread to be deleted, as I am now really scared that it might do serious damage.

Sorry, I meant sara!

@ChopinandChampagne

Sorry, I meant sara!

Don't worry! I answer to anything!

And thanks for taking my concern on board. Good luck to you with what is such a difficult situation.

If you choose to have your thread deleted (I don’t think you need to personally but I can understand a touch of paranoia!), copy and paste the whole thing. The measured and considered responses and your feelings historically will be useful to you. You

Your choice. But rest assured if they had found the thread, you would know already about it op. I hope that gives you some comfort. Deleting the links is a good idea though.

I did see the property. Part of my wonders whether they have no gone for a cheaper and much smaller one to make a point to you that they need the money as you wouldn't want them living there. I bet they hate fine no research into immigration status, welfare system either.

Having said all that, if LB moved over there for 3 months that could be great for your daughter- you could make the most of the LB free time to rebuild the relationship without him policing everything as much.

Anyway, this isn't the weekend to be thinking of all this. Look after yourself. Be kind to yourself.

Tomorrow will be a tough day for you for sure, so good that your younger DDs will be with you...hopefully you can remember the good times together (hope that doesn't sound trite). The charity is a lovely idea, as long as you are sure you have the energy to pursue it now...you've already got a lot on your plate