SIL and money issues

[ChopinandChampagne]

I recently lost my DH and I thought that it would be nice to give some money to my DGDs, both toddlers, to set aside for their future as a gift from him. Realistically, they will not remember him, but I thought that if they have some money to spend on travel or driving lessons or to help with their university costs or whatever, they would think of him and know how much he loved them, even though he didn't live to see them grow up.

I did some internet research and the suggestions were for a Junior Isa, which a parent would need to set up, and I would then pay into, and the child could access at 18. Alternatively, a savings account, which I would be able to set up as a grandparent, as long as I produce a copy of the birth certificate, which the child can access and take over at 16.

So far, so good and, I thought, relatively uncontroversial, so I suggested it to my DD and said that I wanted to give each of the DGDs £10k from DH and the options. I said that I wanted it to be a separate account and that suggested that she open a Junior Isa or that I should open a savings account. Her response was that she would have to discuss it with SIL and I said fine, thought no more it. Then, I sense that there is a bit of tension and DD says she wants to set up a telephone call with both her and SIL one evening, to discuss the matter after the DGDs are in bed. This was a text, so I reply saying fine, is now a good time, but DD said not, but we could schedule a couple of days later, but only if she has completed her coursework for her studies.

Then, a couple of days ago, I receive an email from SIL, from whom I never hear anything direct, advising me that if I really want to put money in an account, he will open one, but that he thinks that it is a bad idea, as inflation will erode the money. He thinks I should invest it in gold bullion or some other specific account (he says he has recently opened one for DD), and he provided links to various websites.

The tone of the email comes across, not as friendly advice, but telling me what to do. I have said that I will have a rethink, but I am worried about offending him if I don't follow his advice. I feel that he is trying to control how I invest the money. He refers to it as my wanting to invest for the DGD's future, which it is partly, but it is also about wanting the DGDs to remember or be reminded of DH. I don't really want to invest in bullion, as I think it's a bit volatile, and the idea of a bank account is that the DGDs would get the bank statements and maybe learn how to save.

Does anyone have any advice on how best to handle this diplomatically? There is quite a bit of history with SIL (Lobster Boy for those who remember my previous threads), but things are on a reasonably even keel at present and I currently have a good relationship with DD, which I don't want to upset. She says that there is no rush to decide how best to invest the money, it is important to get it right.

As I thought, my proposed approach is controversial and could be regarded as controlling. I am very open to opinions and criticism.

I think that the discretionary trust is the right way to go, but the issue is the six month clause. I would not do this if I thought that DD1 did not want a relationship, because I know that she does. When I speak to her and see her on FaceTime calls, it is clear that she does love me and her sisters. But she will always do what LB says and his strategy is to use her to try to control me and extract money. The man is nearly 30 and has never had a proper job. If I came into this thread cold, without the background, a lot of people would say that is controlling. I accept that.

But what is the alternative, that he controls me? Make no mistake, that is what is happening. Believe me, this is not a fight I want or relish. I thought that things were getting better, but it is just the same. I will allow you the privilege of seeing your daughter and grandchildren, but only on Zoom, you can see but you can't touch. If you treat me nicely, I may allow you to see them on the 3rd Sunday of the 4th month, provided that there is a full moon and an 'r' in the month.

I am not proposing to chop and change. This is what it is. Why should someone ie LB, live off the fruits of my and DH's labour, and not bother to even get a basic job to support their family. Why should I feel obliged to potentially reward people who treat me so badly?

I am not going to rush into this without talking it through thoroughly with my solicitor and my therapist, as I know that I am very emotional right now.

There is also the risk that you push her away until she finds out that you are ill and then she turns up for one spiteful visit to tell you what she really thinks… I think you need a clearer description of a “relationship.”

I read your thread this morning, in the early hours. I remember Lobster Boy thread, not in any detail, but that rang a bell.

I'm not going to try to add anything to the excellent advice you are receiving. I just want to express my condolences to you, on the loss of your beloved husband.

I haven’t posted before but have been following your thread for a while. Haven’t posted as you receive such amazing advice.

However I had to post to comment on your clause in your will. Please think about this further. So DD1 and LB read the will and know exactly what they have to do to inherit. So any time they do see you will purely be to fulfil your clause. It’s pretty much pay per view. It won’t be a true relationship.

With regards to your recent request to visit DD1 and her lack of response I would have to call her out on it. Don’t message her for a while. Let her message you. If she asks why you haven’t been in touch just say it seem she is happy to speak on the phone and send messages about properties and moving to Ireland and isn’t happy that her sisters don’t seem enthusiastic enough for her news of another baby but it is all on her terms and she’s doesn’t seem to actually want to participate in being a family and having visits either to her or to you. I would even say it sometimes seems as if I only hear from you when money is involved.

And if she asks why you called LB I would just say it was a mistake - you pressed on his number accidentally while calling someone else.

Thanks for your posts. I am being a bit desperate aren't I? Trying to protect against the pain of another estrangement, but going the wrong way about it. Ultimately, you can't make people love you.

Sorry but I thought the same as Peridot. If they know about the clause in the will, would the relationship be genuine? Are you OK with that?

I have followed your posts but have not replied before now. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but I think you need to stop blaming LB for everything. Your DD is making her feelings towards you and her sisters abundantly clear and she seems to be just as manipulative towards you as he seems to be towards her. She knows she has you on her hook and can drag you in or drop you as she sees fit and she knows that you are terrified of losing her or your grandchildren so you will eventually do whatever she asks. This is abusive.

In terms of the will, in your shoes I would bypass DD and LB completely, and leave DD's portion in trust to your grandchildren to access when they are say 30 years old (just to ensure that they will hopefully not be in their parents' clutches by that age). I also wouldn't tell them your financial plans. Quite frankly it is none of their business.

I have so much admiration for you trying to navigate your way through such a tumultuous time but I'd have to urge caution on you attaching conditions on your will. A friend of mine is going through a situation at the moment where the terms of a will is being hotly disputed. By the time it is resolved there is likely to be very little left to divide, it will have all gone in fees. Not to mention irreparable damage to previously close relationships. Do you want to leave your younger DDs with a battle on their hands. I expect LB would find a way to argue they should get the lot no matter what you do but don't give him an inch so he can take a mile. Be clear about the split, about who gets what in terms of items of sentimental or intrinsic value, who benefits from a trust, what you want to happen to everything else.

Delurking to say that I think you amazing and brave and that I’m so sorry for the loss of your dh. Your love radiates through your writing.

But the clause, or at east telling them about it, is a potential mistake. I know you said you’ve accepted the fact that all your interactions with them are transactional. And maybe you would prefer this to nothing. However, I think that by telling them exactly what they have to do to get their mitts on your money, none of your interactions will feel genuine again. Every contact will become loaded with even more hurt for you. This is not the key to the meaningful relationship you want. The clause will take any chance of that away. And, IF your dd1 is being controlled (and I am not sure she is) she will resent you for controlling her too. If she isn’t being controlled, and genuinely wants a relationship with you, she will be hurt that you are trying to buy it.

Could it be an option for you to leave dd’s share in trust for the granddaughters to inherit when they are independent adults? And maybe put some aside via dd’s 2&3 so that, if dd1 “breaks free” she will have a starter fund.

I’m sorry you are experiencing all of this pain. Life can be so cruel. Focus your energies on the people who bring you joy and love. Dd1 & lb don’t deserve all this emotional energy x

Also agree with @Justilou1 about crumbs of a “last visit” to get your money. You deserve more than that.

I'm sorry Chopin, but I agree with FlyingSoHigh and Peridot. LB would leap upon that clause with delight as evidence of why DD1 should stay away from you, because it does come across very bluntly. You'd be playing into his hands.

As hard as it is, as much as it hurts, try not to think about her so much. That is, strangely, the most likely way to get her to make some sort (any sort) of physical movement towards you. She has no need to try and be physically closer atm because you're replying readily to her messages and giving her the emotional feedback she wants. If you indicate you might 'gasp!' care about other things, she might actually make a move herself.

I'm sorry, it must be beyond brutal and I sympathise. Take care of yourself.

Do you want to leave your younger DDs with a battle on their hands.

This this THIS. please don't do this to DDs 2 and 3. They will have the most awful time, both legally and with the amount of spite that will come their way while they're grieving you. It would be an absolute nightmare. This is not an act of love.

At best you'll have your DD1 visiting you, not because she loves you but because she wants your money. At worst there be a terrible row between the DDs 2 and 3, and 1 and LB when you're gone. How can you want either of those things to happen?

I am so sorry for what you're going through, but this is a bad plan.

Thank you for your honest posts and I see that you are right. The six month clause is out. I want DD1 to want a relationship because she does, and not for any other reason. I don't want to sink to LB's level or play into his hands. It is a long game. I need to detach. Thank you!

Tbh, I'd cut DD1 out of the will entirely. (not the trusts for DGD, though) You know that anything she gets, will be given straight to him.
You don't want that, you've quite rightly said so. So why leave her any money?

As pp said, have some "set aside" via DD 2 and 3, so if DD1 needs an "escape fund" she can access money.

Hopefully your solicitors can advise on how to ensure that any money cannot be used by LB. E.g. if you put it in trust for your granddaughters' education and he is not one of the trustees who has a decision on whether to release the money. He sounds like a total cocklodger. The one consideration as others have mentioned is that your DD may one day need help to set herself up away from them.

As hard as it is, as much as it hurts, try not to think about her so much. That is, strangely, the most likely way to get her to make some sort (any sort) of physical movement towards you. She has no need to try and be physically closer atm because you're replying readily to her messages and giving her the emotional feedback she wants. If you indicate you might 'gasp!' care about other things, she might actually make a move herself.

I just want to echo this. I would also defer long journeys anywhere for the moment. It all sounds so exhausting, and I don't think it would help. You are grieving and vulnerable right now. Mind yourself.

I think for the time being you leave DD1 out of the will altogether. It would be easy to chan be on the future if things significantly change.

Also your DDs could agree a deed of variation from their shares of things had changed and you hadn't changed the will.

I would also word it that DGD whether born or in utero at the time of your death get X percent split between them in trust.

Also arguably DD1 has had her share early by way of the never loan that went into a property that is ever appreciating in value.

At the time of your death that share of their property could well be worth than eitherDD2 or 3 get.

@ChopinandChampagne. I've been following along since the start - you are so resilient and brave in dealing with the loss of DH and the treatment from DD1 & LB.

I am currently re-doing my will and understand the dilemmas of wording it well. I am single, no children and my estate will be large enough to really help out. My main beneficiary is a niece.

The dilemma is I really dislike her husband and always have (as do her parents though they have more incentive to have to hide it than me). He's not quite as bad as LB but he's definitely lazy, pretentious, egotistical, opinionated, argumentative, selfish and very bad with money, as is his whole family, who are also total spongers and benefit cheats. He's not cut my Dsis & H off or discouraged contact but that's because of the money, I am sure of it. My sister & husband had to bail them out more them once in the past due to his spending on ridiculous luxuries (which niece does object to but he does anyway and she then condones). DSis & BiL have also virtually bought them a house as Niece now has 4 kids and as grandparents couldn't bear to see them living in poor quality rental housing. Sister & BiL made it a trust so if Niece & H split, she gets the house and it's not part of a divorce settlement etc.

For my niece I am stipulating she gets a big chunk of my estate but only if she is no longer with husband at time of my death. Otherwise her share it goes to her kids and charities. For the 4 great-niblings, in trust to 25 to hope they don't inherit the bad spending habits, but accessible for education or property deposits from 18.

I'm not telling niece or her husband any of this as I know he'd be annoyed (he doesn't like me much, as I argue back at him whereas most people have given up to avoid conflict). Have told sister, her mother, who approves.

It's so sad with loved ones when you can see what is happening from the outside but the person in it doesn't. My niece is still besotted with her husband and has so many excuses for his behaviour. Or agrees it's not acceptable but has given up and says he won't change.

I tend to agree with other posters that your DD1 is not totally a victim here and maybe as someone suggested that in LB she has in fact met the person who has opened up a side of her personality that was always there, but otherwise might not have been exposed.

I do believe different combinations of people brings out aspects of our otherwise hidden pysche. It can take things down a path that would not have otherwise have happened if those two specific individuals had not met. That can be good, for example in encouraging a more loving, kind or adventurous side of yourself, or do the opposite and developing more unpleasant toxic behaviours. (There's a reason serial killers often have submissive side kicks).

Who knows why your DD is in this relationship and behaving this way. It is still ls hard for you whatever the reasons. Thank goodness for your other DD's and your love of DH which is always there to sustain you.

The thing is, whatever you decide now doesn’t have to be ‘it’ if you split dd’s share completely between the DGc maybe leaving her a finite gift, you can always change it later if she does break free. If this is your intention obviously don’t advertise that to them

Just rereading your OP, and find it extraordinary that neither of them actually said, thanks so much for what is a very generous thing to do. But launched instead into unwanted advice, and a decree of what would suit them, even from the point of view of when they would discuss it.

I would expect more of a reaction than that, if I sent a few quid in a birthday card to someone.

a decreasing scale that could be written in to a will would be ideal., the longer she doesn't visit the smaller her inheritance becomes.
No point in warning her obviously.

Or like the PP's niece, She inherits if she has separated before your decease, or her share can go to dgc, at a set age.

I'm glad you've taken the clause out. Otherwise every time you'd see them, you'd know they'd check the date and you'd be thinking about how fake the visit was.
You want to see her because she wants to see you.
I'd think about leaving dd2 and dd3 their share and reserving dd1's in trust for her children. She's already said how set up she is, they do t work and are financially sound, they already have a house. So actually dont need your inheritance.

I’m glad you’ve reconsidered the 6 month visiting clause, like other posters I really think this would be a mistake, whilst I can see where you were trying to come from with that.

Lots of different views in terms of what you should have in will, dependencies etc. You can stay high level or go into as much detail as you want with your wishes.

Whilst wills can change, I would try and future proof it a bit too, so I would be tempted to factor in a provision for any further grandchildren from DD2 and 3, (and remind DD1 and LB that, just because they have 3 children doesn't mean they're getting more) so maybe
DD1 20%
DD2 20%
DD3 20%

DGC1-3 from DD1 10% (so the 10% split across all 3)
Possible DGC from DD2 10%
Possible DGC from DD3 10%
(Know there’s still a 10% spare 😊)

And a clause on where the money should go if there are no grandchildren by DD2 and 3 by X date.

The above is obviously only if you want to leave the same amount to DD1 as DD2 and 3, I get the sense that you do (I may be wrong which would be completely understandable), and you could apply any conditions you wished.

There could be caveats to any money for DD’s or grandchildren such as use for property, education, vehicles or whatever would have been yours and DH’s wishes.

Personally, I would leave DD1's share directly to the children in a secure trust until they are much older. I would not tell her or her feckless partner about it.