SIL and money issues

[ChopinandChampagne]

I recently lost my DH and I thought that it would be nice to give some money to my DGDs, both toddlers, to set aside for their future as a gift from him. Realistically, they will not remember him, but I thought that if they have some money to spend on travel or driving lessons or to help with their university costs or whatever, they would think of him and know how much he loved them, even though he didn't live to see them grow up.

I did some internet research and the suggestions were for a Junior Isa, which a parent would need to set up, and I would then pay into, and the child could access at 18. Alternatively, a savings account, which I would be able to set up as a grandparent, as long as I produce a copy of the birth certificate, which the child can access and take over at 16.

So far, so good and, I thought, relatively uncontroversial, so I suggested it to my DD and said that I wanted to give each of the DGDs £10k from DH and the options. I said that I wanted it to be a separate account and that suggested that she open a Junior Isa or that I should open a savings account. Her response was that she would have to discuss it with SIL and I said fine, thought no more it. Then, I sense that there is a bit of tension and DD says she wants to set up a telephone call with both her and SIL one evening, to discuss the matter after the DGDs are in bed. This was a text, so I reply saying fine, is now a good time, but DD said not, but we could schedule a couple of days later, but only if she has completed her coursework for her studies.

Then, a couple of days ago, I receive an email from SIL, from whom I never hear anything direct, advising me that if I really want to put money in an account, he will open one, but that he thinks that it is a bad idea, as inflation will erode the money. He thinks I should invest it in gold bullion or some other specific account (he says he has recently opened one for DD), and he provided links to various websites.

The tone of the email comes across, not as friendly advice, but telling me what to do. I have said that I will have a rethink, but I am worried about offending him if I don't follow his advice. I feel that he is trying to control how I invest the money. He refers to it as my wanting to invest for the DGD's future, which it is partly, but it is also about wanting the DGDs to remember or be reminded of DH. I don't really want to invest in bullion, as I think it's a bit volatile, and the idea of a bank account is that the DGDs would get the bank statements and maybe learn how to save.

Does anyone have any advice on how best to handle this diplomatically? There is quite a bit of history with SIL (Lobster Boy for those who remember my previous threads), but things are on a reasonably even keel at present and I currently have a good relationship with DD, which I don't want to upset. She says that there is no rush to decide how best to invest the money, it is important to get it right.

@OhioOhioOhio

Yes. Say you are going to think about it and never let them pin you down by being annoying vague forever. Then get a junior isa in your name for your grandchildren and change your will accordingly.

Love this.

I am sorry to say that I also think your DD1 uses conversations about your DH as a way “IN” and open up a raw, vulnerable wound for you. She operates on the “mutual grief” assumption, and yet she made her choices and she continued to stick to her course that caused so much pain for you and DH. This “fake mutual empathy” is a tool that is used to also open up the conversation about the money, as naturally, DH’s death leads to inheritance.

@Justilou1 I thought the same thing not necessarily as a way into money but as in its a way of engaging in empathy and sympathy for DD1 making it easier to ignore the fake ness and manipulation that's going on.

Asking if DH had watched a certain film? I mean there must be so many other much more meaningful things to reminisce over together?

This is why @ChopinandChampagne is exhausted and flat after dialogue with her. She knows, but doesn’t want to…. she knows.

@Justilou1 - Spot on re "a way in"

I just feel they reel you in ChopinandChampagne and then disappoint and hurt you.
As many keep saying on this thread- step back. Focus on DD2 and DD3.
Hopefully the scales will fall from DD1's eyes though I'm not sure they will.

@PearPickingPorky

I'm a bit worried about all these pregnancies so close together, especially when she's had hard births.

Do you think you could ask her how many children she and LB want to have together? If she says only 3, then it may be worth saying to her (after DG3 is born) that she might want to think about getting a copper coil, and see what she says. Because I'm worried that LB is trying to keep her 'barefoot and pregnant' too further isolate her, as with more and more babies she'll be too exhausted to do anything else (eg teach, meet up with people, etc). I say a coil, because it's more long-term, just in case LB would forbid her taking the pill.

In a way, the more children she has the better. Her eventual third of the estate will be equally split between her and her children, so less for LB to get his hands on!

So much going on here Chopin. It’s not surprising that you have experienced the polarity of emotions from euphoria to drained, to exhausted and ultimately flat.

It’s all so emotionally charged, frustrating and you are ultimately powerless here.

This situation with your DD1 most likely rips at the very core of your own sense of self as a mother because how could your adored first born do this to their own mother? That’s when the crippling self doubt creeps in, but also vacillating with rage at her relentlessly cruel behaviours and then mixed up with a huge underlying urge to protect and rescue her because you sense danger.

So you are thrown into the perpetually mentally distressing, cyclical, stuck state of “cognitive dissonance” - which results from trying to simultaneously hold vacillating conflicting beliefs, values and feelings. As we emotionally tend to seek a single stance and reach consistency in our perceptions, thoughts and attitudes, this constant internal conflict, when things don’t make sense, when our gut is churning and at odds with what our thoughts are oscillating between, causes feelings of deep unease and extreme discomfort.

You have been living like this for years and years. You know she is in danger because there is so much evidence of classic intimate partner violence (doesn’t have to be physical to have this definition), coercive control (reproductively, financially, emotionally, socially), and his undeniable personality disordered behaviours which he has displayed with other people in many other settings.

He has her fully immersed in his mental control like a cult leader.

You are also the key threat to him and at the same time it seems your are her only social contact with the outside world, before she started her recent PGCE training. She is almost 100% socially and emotionally isolated - if it weren’t that you are a high value potential revenue stream to him, he would not allow her contact with you.

So with the call there was a lot of deep information revealed by her - how desperate she must be to not want him at the birth - how much her own body is physically screaming at her to resist him by halting labour. I suspect that these multiple pregnancies in quick succession were not her choice. That doesn’t mean she doesn’t love her babies. And she is probably unconscious of much of this because any thoughts deviating from his unhinged world view are very dangerous to her.

I think it’s a significant breakthrough that she has shared these deeply personal fears - I doubt she has shared them with him. As PP has said midwives, other HCPs, education systems are trained to look out for coercive control and abuse and taught to handle it delicately with safety in mind.

Maybe people at her work have observed behaviors or are concerned - it’s a real shame that she isn’t carrying on working. I thought she would take the job just to work for half a term to get the maternity leave pay. Does she ever speak of her colleagues, fellow students etc?

At some point you could mention to her that the midwives might subtly arrange a plan with her for him not to be there - maybe mention to her to bring this up when she gets a private moment with one.....but don’t let on that they will be looking out for this.

I know that others on this thread see her as the perpetrator and fully responsible for her odious and selfish actions towards you (which she is) and maybe I am just too soft - but I also sense someone who is acting out due to the extreme emotional pressure she is under, due to being trauma bonded to, and abusively controlled by, a very mentally unstable and vile man.

I suspect that she spends a life walking on eggshells - and “fawning” (which is a classic trauma response among the other options of fight, fright, flight, freeze, flop) - to keep him subdued.

This doesn’t excuse her actions but maybe explains them. It doesn’t mean that you should expose yourself or tolerate them either. It’s just, I think, something to hold in mind.

It seems from the conversation that she is resolute in never apologising or acknowledging your hurt or even meeting you somewhere in between. Maybe this is too painful for her (her own cognitive dissonance) too threatening to her emotionally or too much of a risk of betrayal of LB that she has to dig in her heels - or maybe she is just cold, uncompromising, arrogant and without empathy or compassion. Or maybe she can be both when she chooses to.

Either way she has told you that she is drawing a line under it - it is now clear that there is nothing further to be gained in worrying or talking about it. The resolution and understanding you had hoped for on this past chapter will not happen now.

You have a simple choice to make. It’s either unacceptable to you that she is unable or unwilling to apparently reflect on this chapter, so much so, that you cannot continue the relationship or you choose to continue an adapted relationship with her at an emotional depth and with boundaries at a specific level that you choose to emotionally invest to, sufficient first to keep you emotionally protected and safe and still in contact with her - but not to the extent that you are an outlet for her unconscious distress with LB so much that it inadvertently enables that abusive relationship.

As ever your other DDs are your joy, hope, pleasure, support and source of restoration and comfort.

Keep immersing yourself in this reciprocal, unconditional loving space - and don’t let DD1 antics dominate or pollute this - prioritise their lives, lives, successes etc

@Sssloou excellent advice as usual.

@Diamondnights “brown bear” very well pictures the situation. I’m sorry for not giving you a credit for that.

@Sssloou - I am beginning to picture you as Glinda the Good Witch from the Wizard of Oz. (I luuuurved her soooo!) Your advice is so gentle and so magical.

@Justilou1

Gosh *@Diamondnights*, that was a clever metaphor!

I thought so too *@Diamondnights* @Justilou1

What a beautifully written post @Sssloou
Wise words.

Good afternoon and thank you so much for your posts, which I have been reflecting on and which, as always, I have found immensely helpful.

The analogy of the brown bear is brilliant, as is the advice to avoid the cave and not to get too close or unaccompanied.

Sssloou - I swear you know me better than I know myself and you indeed seem to have some psychic or magical powers of insight. You summarise exactly my conflicting and vacillating feelings. My hurt and frustration, my worry and concern, my fear of being hurt again, my feelings of failure, and my love and desire to protect.

I have never been in a relationship with an abusive man, but I have come across men in my career who displayed similar characteristics to LB, which at heart stems from fear and misogyny. Fortunately, I left them at the office and did not have to go home to them. Now I have to cope with one who has infiltrated the family.

I have always been a very independent person, and I did my best to encourage my DDs to be the same, education, career etc, so I don't understand why DD1 has fallen prey to LB. DH's aunt, whom I was very close to, and from whom my DDs will inherit, as DH drafted her will for his children to have his share, thinks that she just needed someone to lean on. And I think a lot of people are like that, which is fine if the person you lean on has your best interests at heart. But ultimately, I am not sure that LB has - a genuinely loving person would not make their partner choose between them and their family, even if they had a low opinion of that family or didn't like them.

I am very concerned about DD1's pregnancy, given what has gone before. In fact, this is the 4th pregnancy and, given that the first one was also apparently unplanned, I find it astonishing that she would risk being in that position again. In the days when we were close and discussed everything (and this was after I made LB leave my house), she said that they were using natural methods of birth control. I said that's really not at all sensible as it's unreliable, that my mother had a termination as the pregnancy was at the wrong time, and never got over it. Don't put yourself through that.

So, some months later, she turned up at short notice, having driven a long way, to say 'something terrible has happened, I have been very stupid'. I knew what she was going to say, but pretended not to, in order to buy time. The emotions were whizzing in my head. I knew that she was going to tell me that there was to be a DGC, which would have filled me with joy, and I felt instinctively protective of him/her. But I knew that it would tie her to LB, which alarmed me.

I am pleased to say that I managed to control my emotions, just thinking what an appalling decision to have to make, but it is her decision and all I can do is support her. So I said, when she told me, what have you decided to do and I will support you whatever. And she said she didn't want it and she had already booked a termination. And she stayed for a few days and I hugged her a lot and said whatever you decide is right for you.

And she was so grateful for my support, which is why she booked to take me to Madrid for a weekend, as a thank you/ Mother's Day present. And we had a lovely, lovely time together, and that was almost exactly five years ago and, apart from visiting DH that day when he was dying in hospital, we have not spent even 15 minutes alone together since.

I think LB believes that I encouraged her in the termination, which is another reason why he hates me. But I definitely didn't- in fact, I was very upset about it and had counselling, but it was her decision. I strongly believe that it is a woman's right to choose. But it made it all the more painful that I knew the exact date and time when what would have been DGC1 was no more, but I didn't know when DGD1 was born, not for 14 months.

Also, at DD1's request, I told nobody about the termination, not even DH for a long time, and he was very upset that he hadn't been told. When they sent the letter, telling us about DGD1, they said that, as we knew, this was their second pregnancy, as the first had been at the wrong time, that they hadn't told us about DGD1, as she was so precious to them and they didn't want to expose her to broken relationships.

Sorry this is another long post.

That was yet another vile thing to say to you.

I can feel your sadness and pain through the screen. I am so, so sorry that you have been subjected to this treatment from both of them. Ok, LB is the worst, but your DD1 doesn't come out of any of this looking very good, either.

Honestly? I'd just stay away from them both now. IF DD1 finally manages to escape his control, you can be there for her and the GC, if you wish. But at the moment all that is happening is they are torturing you at a point when you are grieving so so much.

That actually makes a lot of sense, I think you might have mentioned the termination before but I've forgotten, but not telling you about DGC1 probably stemmed from him thinking you encouraged the termination. With each update I feel more sick at what he is doing to you and your family.

You must have thought this already - it's likely your DD paints herself in the best light to him, likely told him the termination was something you pushed to make herself look innocent. This demonstrates that she will always throw you under a bus in order to keep him happy. All you can do is wait and see if the dynamic changes.

In the meantime protect yourself. While I do sympathise with anyone in a controlling relationship, she isn't blameless in this, and you didn't choose LB, so it's not fair for you to suffer. It will be impossible to rebuild your relationship with him in the picture. You are recently bereaved and it's very doubtful that you can withstand navigating a relationship where two toxic individuals are working against you.

After DD1s behaviour in recent years you don't owe her anything, push aside any guilt or obligation including DH's wish that you keep reconciled. Look after you.

Focus your energies on your other daughters who are able to offer you a full relationship. You can make it clear to DD1 that you will always be there for her in a crisis, but step back from the day to day.

It sounds like he was desperately trying to get her pregnant so she, his meal ticket, was tied to him forever.

Your poor daughter.

She's going to end up with 10 children.

Having 4DC and the youngest 3 within 3 years for people that are work shy DD1 is going to be exhausted

Running a home and homeschooling whilst the big I am sits there and does not much at all

I just wanted to add that I agree with the excellent point @Justilou1 made, and @RandomMess and @LadyEloise agreed with. I think your DD1 does use phone calls and memories of your DH as a way IN and to trigger your emotions so she can then direct the conversion where she wants (money/inheritance) in what seems to be a sympathetic way. It’s hard to think your own child could do that, and I expect she does it very sweetly and sympathetically as the emotions are real for both of you, but that is exactly what she is doing. Your description of your last call, where you had tried to put her off with texts, but she wouldn’t be put off, shows this. She gently but firmly emotionally manipulated you until you took the call, and then she could have the conversation about inheritance.

Well done on standing firm that it is not your conversation to have. Stick to that line - you are right, and you don’t need to have another ‘money’ issue with LB and DD1. If the inheritance is late, or less than expected or comes with strings, if you were involved, it would all be your fault. Don’t give them another stick with which LB can beat you.

I also agree with the person up thread who said to save any other money you might think of giving DD1 (or were planning to spend on spa weekends with her etc) in a separate account as a ‘starter fund’ for when (if?) she leaves LB. clearly from his attitude to money and lack of formal job, she will get no financial support from him at all, and a nest egg from you would be very helpful. That way it is fair to your other DDs, who have behaved so well, and yet are also getting the same kicking from DD1, without the love-bombing she gives you.

If she doesn’t leave LB you can always give it to the DGC on significant birthdays for fairness.

Above all, please protect your heart. It feels abit like you have linked DH’s death and wish for the family to be reunited and so you must inflict this on yourself to follow through with his wishes. I am sure if he were still here he would not want you to feel like this and be going through these emotions at such a raw time. Reconciliation can come at any time and at any pace. Give full space to your grieving now. Limit DD1 to (say) weekly phone calls and one daily text, like a bit more of a distance relative. Don’t think of visiting her, focus on you, DD2 and DD3. You are blessed with those 2 girls and you should circle the wagons on your family of three for awhile. Once this period has passed, and you are feeling stronger, then re-engage the battle ring. @Sssloou gives excellent advice, but you have to be at the top of your emotional game to counter someone like LB, and you aren’t in that space yet. Give yourself a break to grieve and heal.

Just checking in on you @ChopinandChampagne… When things go quiet it’s usually because you’re down. I hope you’re okay. Big hugs! 💐

Thank you everyone for your kindness.

Justilou, you are not wrong. DD2 has had a biopsy following several abnormal smears and has to wait six weeks for results, and also may have a congenital heart problem. She has a consultation with the cardiologist next week and I am worried sick. I don't like to be negative or fatalistic, but everything seems to be going wrong at present, and I am absolutely terrified of losing anybody else I love.

In the meantime, I had a long and cordial chat with DD1 on Sunday. She messaged her uncle about the inheritance and he apparently said that the money should be available by the end of the month, that he had filled the forms in promptly, but it was taking a long time to go through probate.

So DD1 and LB are proposing to bid at auction on a property in the Republic of Ireland, which looks a bit of a wreck and miles from anywhere, where the guide price is 200k euros, without even viewing it. I asked DD1 if she had checked out schools etc and she said not. I said that I was worried that she wouldn't have a support network and she said she understood why I was saying this. I said why not go over for a few days and check it out and she agreed that it was a good idea......but apparently not possible unless you are vaccinated and they are not proposing to be vaccinated.

She sent me a link to the property yesterday, as well as a podcast by an anti-vaxxer, who thinks that the vaccinations are sinister and Orwellian. I am worried that she is buying a property blind, but giving any advice seems to be counter-productive, as it makes LB all the more determined to do the opposite.

I despair, but right now DD2 is my biggest worry and concern.

Fingers crossed all will be well with DD2.
What part of Ireland - you can pm if you want to answer that. I live in Ireland.
Is it further isolation ?
Do they know there is no NHS ?
Free medical cover is means tested ?
Free schooling isn't like the UK. You are supposed to give a voluntary contribution.
There is a section on Mumsnet called Craicnet - the Irish section. You could read some posts of people who have moved or are moving to Ireland and what they have encountered. It will give you some knowledge if she brings it up again. Though as you rightly say, the more you are against it the more LB might push it.
🙏 all will be well.

They will need to 2 cars,
Where is the nearest: baker/shop/school/chemist/doctor/builders merchant ?
How is the roof ? is it damp ? is it in insulated/double glazed?
If it's a small holding, how are the fences? is there a paved road? is it in a flood area? is it just a bog ?
If its going for auction it may have been for sale & un sold. how long has it been empty
This is such a half baked idea, & they haven't even seen it,
You really need to tell her this is her inheritance & she can decide how it is spent.

Sending all the best for dd2

Maybe this will be the straw that breaks the camels back for dd1, she will be completely isolated, she hasn’t checked the schools probably because she is thinking of home schooling. You can but advise and hope for the best.

www.daft.ie/for-sale/detached-house-ballyvoureen-cappamore-co-limerick/3248695

Thank you for your advice LadyEloise, Billy and Mix. This is the property. Why doesn't it surprise me that a fervent Brexit supporter like LB is one of the first to trade on his Irish ancestry to obtain an Irish/EU passport?

I feel like saying be careful, but I know it won't make any difference. She will be potentially isolated, with no support network, two toddlers and another baby on the way. She is thinking of home schooling, so the children will also be isolated.

Bloody hell, that property is a wreck! How much inheritance are they due? It's likely to eat everything up. I bet LB doesn't even have the skills to fix it.

Can they even move there now we have left the EU?

Can you talk to the uncle about the inheritance and find more out about timings of probate etc?

She's so controlled by LB it's unreal.