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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

SIL and money issues

1000 replies

ChopinandChampagne · 24/01/2021 13:01

I recently lost my DH and I thought that it would be nice to give some money to my DGDs, both toddlers, to set aside for their future as a gift from him. Realistically, they will not remember him, but I thought that if they have some money to spend on travel or driving lessons or to help with their university costs or whatever, they would think of him and know how much he loved them, even though he didn't live to see them grow up.

I did some internet research and the suggestions were for a Junior Isa, which a parent would need to set up, and I would then pay into, and the child could access at 18. Alternatively, a savings account, which I would be able to set up as a grandparent, as long as I produce a copy of the birth certificate, which the child can access and take over at 16.

So far, so good and, I thought, relatively uncontroversial, so I suggested it to my DD and said that I wanted to give each of the DGDs £10k from DH and the options. I said that I wanted it to be a separate account and that suggested that she open a Junior Isa or that I should open a savings account. Her response was that she would have to discuss it with SIL and I said fine, thought no more it. Then, I sense that there is a bit of tension and DD says she wants to set up a telephone call with both her and SIL one evening, to discuss the matter after the DGDs are in bed. This was a text, so I reply saying fine, is now a good time, but DD said not, but we could schedule a couple of days later, but only if she has completed her coursework for her studies.

Then, a couple of days ago, I receive an email from SIL, from whom I never hear anything direct, advising me that if I really want to put money in an account, he will open one, but that he thinks that it is a bad idea, as inflation will erode the money. He thinks I should invest it in gold bullion or some other specific account (he says he has recently opened one for DD), and he provided links to various websites.

The tone of the email comes across, not as friendly advice, but telling me what to do. I have said that I will have a rethink, but I am worried about offending him if I don't follow his advice. I feel that he is trying to control how I invest the money. He refers to it as my wanting to invest for the DGD's future, which it is partly, but it is also about wanting the DGDs to remember or be reminded of DH. I don't really want to invest in bullion, as I think it's a bit volatile, and the idea of a bank account is that the DGDs would get the bank statements and maybe learn how to save.

Does anyone have any advice on how best to handle this diplomatically? There is quite a bit of history with SIL (Lobster Boy for those who remember my previous threads), but things are on a reasonably even keel at present and I currently have a good relationship with DD, which I don't want to upset. She says that there is no rush to decide how best to invest the money, it is important to get it right.

OP posts:
Justilou1 · 01/06/2021 05:59

I think @ChopinandChampagne is still unconvinced that we should all be diagnosing her DD1 based on one upset vent, and I agree, tbh. Nobody goes through an entire lifetime behaving impeccably. DD1 has made choices we disagree with and don’t understand.’LB is a bastard. Still, her choice. @ChopinandChampagne has to make choices that suit HER now as well, not our opinions or agendas. We are here simply to support whatever she chooses, because she KNOWS the facts. She’s lived through it all.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch...
Can this certificate get there already??? 🐌🐌🐌

Justilou1 · 01/06/2021 06:02

Sorry! Certificate is unrelated to this thread! I haven’t slept properly I some days. (I passed a big exam today, so that problem is solved!!!)

ChopinandChampagne · 02/06/2021 10:45

Justilou - Congratulations, well done on your success!!

Thank you everyone for your replies, which I have been thinking over. DD1 is due to call me at lunchtime, when DGD2 has her nap, so I just need to be calm. I want to have contact but I need to be realistic as to what is achievable. I was setting myself up to be hurt by inviting myself on DGD1's birthday. As you have all so wisely said, I should keep it low key and vanilla, step back and detach. I don't want to be a needy granny on top of everything else which DD1 has to deal with, but nor do I have the energy to support her.

Lorthern, thank you for your post - like you, we have many happy memories and so many photographs which are the contemporaneous record. DD1 has been reminiscing a lot about her childhood, in a good way - or had been - so I think she must remember it too. I don't think that she is quite lost to me yet, but it is dangling by a thread, with LB on standby with a pair of scissors!

Billy - I think that you are right. I was reflecting and thinking how it seems that DD1 was very well mentally when she met LB, had settled into university, made friends etc, but seemed to become unstable when she met him. He is so needy that he wants 100% of DD1 and the relationship is one of codependency, although I think that DD1 has benefitted from doing the PGCE, and was doing really well. The school had actually offered her a job when she announced that she was expecting DGC3.

Random, you are right, I need to take it slowly. It was actually DD1 who accelerated things, so that messages and FaceTimes and photographs were arriving on a daily basis, and she would be offended if I didn't immediately reply. It was all a bit overwhelming.

Sssloou - as ever, you make excellent points. I do genuinely believe LB to be a 'nutter', and I don't say that lightly.

forrest - you are right that DD1 will always put herself first. I know, and have always really known, that if I were in need, I could not rely on her. I think she quite likes the idea of me as a doting granny, but only on their terms. I can look and admire but not touch.

Lockdown - thank you for your brilliant and perceptive post. Regarding their lifestyle, they are not extravagant, quite the opposite, but they definitely have a view that their views and their way of doing things is superior. They seem to despise people who have jobs and mortgages etc. DD1 said that she enjoyed teaching but that they didn't need the money so why bother. I know that she has her hands full with the DGCs, but I just can't respect someone ie LB who is nearly 30, is healthy and extremely well educated (at taxpayer's expense), but scorns to do any type of work, even on a voluntary basis. This also chimes with their political views, which seem to be based on white supremacy and misogyny. They inhabit a very narrow world, both mentally and physically without any seeming desire to widen their horizons.

Anyway, hopefully the call will go well or, at least, not badly.

OP posts:
LadyEloise · 02/06/2021 11:36

Good luck with the call @ChopinandChampagne.

Congrats to @Justilou1

ChopinandChampagne · 02/06/2021 14:04

I bottled it and said that I was going out to lunch, so I have taken myself out, also that I am being taken out tomorrow by friends, which is true, so let's catch up at the weekend.

I just didn't feel like talking to her today and felt that I was in the sort of mood where I might say something I shouldn't. Pathetic, I know, but I find it easier just to stick to messages at present.

Missing DH a lot, I found his passport photo on my computer today, which upset me. It's when I am upset that I can lash out and then it all backfires on me.

OP posts:
RandomMess · 02/06/2021 17:59

If you aren't in the right frame of mind then far better to not talk!!

You say when you're upset you lash out, is it possible that DD1 is like you in that respect?

Lockdowntherabbithole · 02/06/2021 19:54

Hi @ChopinandChampagne you reply to me is exactly how I had pictured them. It’s a bizarre set-up in a way and difficult for us to get on board with when most of society are taught to work hard- reap the benefits/educate self- work hard- reap the benefits etc etc... so I can totally understand how difficult it is to even accept LB who is educated, yet won’t work or provide for his family and has these bizarre/unflattering views on the rest of the world.

I’m pleased to hear that you got out of the phone call. Even though you may feel that you’ve just put it off for another day, you should know that it’s really positive that you were essentially able to say “this won’t be good for me/help me/be enjoyable for me” at that moment in time. It really shows that you’re listening to yourself and what you need.

Take care, X

Lockdowntherabbithole · 02/06/2021 19:55

Ps- it’s not pathetic- please don’t think that. It’s insightful. X

Justilou1 · 03/06/2021 00:08

Hi @ChopinandChampagne... Just popping back in to say that you didn’t bottle it. You established a boundary for yourself in a safe, non-confrontational way. I’m really proud of you, actually. It was smart. You have to accept that relationships are a two-way street and YOU have a place in the driver’s seat too. That was awesome work!!!
@LadyEloise thanks for the congrats... just the start with that exam. Still a long way to go! Hard work with aging brain!

ChopinandChampagne · 03/06/2021 08:05

Thank you everyone.

Random - I don't usually feel this angry or lash out but, yes, DD1 can be very defensive and emotional. I actually think that this anger, which has consumed me all week, is another effect of grieving. I have been reading 'Of Grief and Grieving', which has been recommended to me, in order to try to understand the torrent of emotions which seem to threaten to drown me and apparently anger is a positive sign, although it doesn't feel like it. At least it is positive to the extent that it seems that may be another step forward in terms of coming to terms with everything, but there is obviously a long way to go, and I don't think you ever really can come to terms with great loss. Apparently the grief can also cause buried grief for other losses to surface, which is probably why I have been recollecting my brother's death all those years ago.

When I think of DH, I recall the famous Auden poem, which features in Four Weddings and a Funeral (which DH and I both loved). DH truly was

'My North, my South, my East and West......I thought that love would last for ever: I was wrong'...

The stars are not wanted now; put out every one;
Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
Pour away the ocean and sweep up the wood;
For nothing now can come to any good.'

I cannot be with him, but I can honour him and his wishes, and he remains a part of me, just as I lost part of myself when he died. And he would not want me to be angry with DD1, quite the contrary. So it is my issue to work through this anger and this grief and I think it is better to keep contact with DD1 down to a minimum whilst I am feeling like this.

OP posts:
strawberry2017 · 03/06/2021 08:32

Sending you so much love and strength, I am so sorry to hear about your DH, I remember your original posts well.
I'm sorry to hear LB is still up to his old tricks. X

FlyingSoHigh · 03/06/2021 14:33

Many families have huge fall outs while they are grieving, even ones where there were no previous issues.
You are being very wise to keep contact to a minimum - you are in so much pain right now that you won't be able to trust your own instincts when talking to her.
Take time to start healing, and park all the issues with DD1 until you are stronger.

FollowYourOwnNorthStar · 03/06/2021 14:54

Hey @ChopinandChampagne I’m a first time commenter, but have read all your threads. I was so sorry to read of the passing of your DH. I really hope you look after yourself right now. You are so vulnerable, and I think the issues with DD1 are so tied up in your feeling about DH and how his final months could have been spent, that contact with her aggravates your grief over his passing.

I really hope you can put yourself first. And not always fee the need to respond to her for fear she will go non-contact again. As I am less generous than you, I think establishing firm boundaries and letting her worry that actually YOU might go low contact with her might be beneficial (as it seemed to be in the email you sent after you first learned about the DGD1 being born), however I think you should do nothing but put yourself and your emotions and healing first right now.

On a slightly different note, have your daughters received the large inheritance they were going to get from DH’s aunt? Or, if not, do they know it is coming? I feel like this knowledge will have LB in a tailspin of plans and schemes.

NeilBuchananisBanksy · 04/06/2021 07:46

You have said a couple of times that your DH would not want you to be angry at DD1.

I think part of this is you are trying to bottle your feelings because of that. You are allowed to be angry at her- to be honest you should be.

Stop beating yourself up over whether or not DH would have wanted this or not. You don't want this either and you can't help your feelings. You need to find your own way without additional pressure about whether or not it's what your DH would have wanted.

Sending strength to you.

RandomMess · 04/06/2021 09:02

It was easier for your DH to forgive because he was at end of life, it is not the same at all as having an ongoing relationship with someone that is still "playing games" etc.

Your DH didn't have to cope with the overwhelming searing grief whilst trying to forgive someone that hurt him as well as their beloved spouse.

LadyEloise · 04/06/2021 09:29

I think @RandomMess has nailed it.
You want to do what your beloved dh wished for.
But sadly your dd1 is not playing ball.
I veer between feeling sorry for her as she appears to be controlled by LB and wanting to shake her for her self ( and nuclear family ) absorption and selfishness.

Where is the money coming from for them to live on ?

PearPickingPorky · 04/06/2021 22:27

Oh my, Chopin, I just clicked on this thread randomly and was gobsmacked to read about LB, because I still remember your first thread about him and (IIRC) the Masters and doer-upper house. I cannot believe all that has happened since (although it's unsurprising to hear how bad LB turned out to be). I am so sorry to hear about your wonderful DH, I can't imagine how hard this last year has been for you.

You have had some amazing advice on this thread. I am in awe of how wise and perceptive these women are. This recent one I think you should read again, because it's absolutely right:

Just popping back in to say that you didn’t bottle it. You established a boundary for yourself in a safe, non-confrontational way. I’m really proud of you, actually. It was smart. You have to accept that relationships are a two-way street and YOU have a place in the driver’s seat too.

You don't need to let yourself be picked up and dropped on a whim by her. You are right to put down boundaries. They are very important, especially when you're working through what you are, and especially with two people with the personality types of DD1 and LB.

Justilou1 · 05/06/2021 23:44

I was just thinking of you @ChopinandChampagne… I hope you are having a lovely weekend and can consider catching up and doing something social soon. It would be so good to get out and about.

Cimone · 06/06/2021 02:24

Have an attorney set up trusts for the kids that they get when they turn whatever age you decide. The parents names will not be on it ever. They will have no access to it and no decision-making power in how it is handled. Whoever you have designated to handle your estate upon your death will manage it - I suggest a solicitor you trust, not an individual. This is what we in the US call "looking a gift horse in the mouth". So if you speak to him again, tell him that you have decided to eliminate him from the equation , do what you want with YOUR MONEY, and that he is off the hook for making any decision whatsoever with regards to the matter.

ChopinandChampagne · 07/06/2021 08:47

Thank you everyone, and I have indeed had 'amazing advice' on this thread.

I had a long talk to DD1 on Saturday. I had actually tried to avoid talking to her by sending a long, chatty message saying that was 'all my news for now and have a lovely weekend'. She had tried to call me twice earlier in the day when I was out, which is what prompted the message, but she tried again later, and I didn't want to give the impression that I was avoiding her.

We started off by chatting about normal things, how she is feeling (sick and tired), what they were doing (not much), and it was ok but a bit stilted. Then she moved, slightly awkwardly, onto the matter of the inheritance and when it would be paid. She said that they wanted a bigger house for when the new baby arrives and wanted to start looking now. I said that she should speak to my brother in law, who is dealing with it all and that I would her send his details, which I subsequently did. I said that it could take a while to go through probate, but that the house in London was sold, and he would know the present position. She wanted me to ask him, but I said that I wouldn't feel comfortable in doing so, but that I was sure that he would be happy to speak to her.

I then asked a few friendly questions about where they were planning to move to, putting their house on the market etc. She was quite vague, said that they were thinking of moving to Ireland or Wales and didn't want to sell their house until the baby is born (there is also the second house in the same area, which they rent out). So I concluded that there is no plan to move until next year, but that they want to know when the money is coming, which I don't actually think is unreasonable. I said that she could probably borrow against the inheritance, but her response 'What, you mean we would have to pay interest?'

Anyway, she seemed rather embarrassed at the thought of ringing her uncle, and I am not sure that she will. That part of the conversation reminded me of when she had met LB and they wanted to buy a house together. DH's father, ie her grandfather, had given DH £20k to share between the three DDs, for such things as driving lessons, first car etc. None of them were at all bothered about it, probably because they didn't need it at the time, but there was absolute trust that DH would keep it safe for them. But after she met LB, she kept ringing up, both me and DH, at least two or three conversations with each of us, asking where the money was, was it in an account, was interest being paid etc, as though she didn't trust us. It just wasn't her, and I knew then that she had been primed to ask these questions.

The conversation then took a different turn and we had the frankest conversation we have had in a long, long time. I think it was Billy who said that DD1 would process things over a period of time, and I think she was right.

First, DD1 told me how worried she is about giving birth again, after the two emergency C sections for DGD1 and DGD2. Some of you may remember from one of my other threads that she was strongly advised by her consultant to have an elective C section last time, but refused and went to something like 43 weeks before being induced. She then ended up with another emergency C section, during which both she and DGD2 nearly died - she told me recently that she believed DGD2 was dead - and she was treated for suspected sepsis. DD1 said she thought that she had PTSD as a result of the experience and it took her a while to bond with DGD2, who was born late on Christmas Eve.

I spoke to DD1 shortly after the birth, in the early hours of the morning, and she was shattered and had been advised to stay in hospital for a few days to recover and get some rest. I said that seemed like a good idea and she agreed. When I spoke to her, the thing she seemed most concerned about was that LB hadn't been allowed to stay overnight and had to drive home, when he was tired. She was concerned that he was driving whilst tired, hadn't had anything to eat etc. From what she said, it sounded as though LB had gone off in a sulk.

The next thing was, some hours later, LB sent me a text - which he almost never does - to tell me that he had picked up DD1 and DGD2 from hospital and taken them home. DD1 later told me that she had cooked the Christmas dinner but LB had 'helped' her, which she seemed grateful about.

But what she said to me in our conversation on Saturday is that she doesn't want LB to be at the next birth at all, because she feels that his presence arrested the labour, that she was more concerned about him than giving birth. She said that this is apparently normal, she even had some word or phrase to describe it, and asked me if I had felt like that. I said no, not at all, that I was worried about DH driving to the hospital as he is a rubbish driver, but he had supported me and our sole focus was on my giving birth.

Then we spoke about the family situation. She said that she had been very upset by what I had said about her treatment of me and DH, as well as my remarks about not having formed any bond with the DGDs; also that she hates the idea that her sisters may discuss her in a negative way as though she is a 'villain'. She then mumbled again something about she and LB wanting to spend DGD1's birthday together, as this is what they always do. She then said that I should never have thrown LB out of the house, which answered all of my questions which have been brewing and festering in my head for years.

Some of you may recall my first thread, where I was going to give DD1 a sum of money to help buy a house with LB, but changed my mind after he exhibited controlling behaviours and she was crying all the time. She has subsequently said that she was suffering from mental health issues at the time but I, not unnaturally, concluded that he was the cause of them. On the day in question, she had been sobbing in her room for a long time, I knocked on the door and entered, whereupon she rushed into the bathroom and locked herself in. I asked LB to leave in a nice way, even offered to drive him to the station, but he refused to go until he had spoken to her. Half an hour later she was still locked in the bathroom and wouldn't come out.

I felt intimidated even though he wasn't actually behaving in a threatening way, as he is much bigger than me and I knew that he had won boxing competitions. DH was at work. DD1's sisters had alerted me to DD1's sobbing, as they were so concerned about her. I am afraid to say that I lost my temper, handled it appallingly, said that he was controlling, that nobody liked him, that he wasn't good enough for my daughter, and that if he didn't leave, I would call the police. So he did finally go, giving me a look of pure hatred on the way out. DD1 then came out of the bathroom, in a terrible state, and then went after him. I was shaking like a leaf and thought that I had lost her forever.

The thing is that he actually came to our house the following new year, apparently prepared to put up with me in the hope of trying to prise money out of us, as he subsequently sent an email suggesting that we should 'make amends' by effectively giving them our retirement home. But of course he still hates me and, I suspect, always will, even though I have apologised several times, gone out of my way to be nice to him, made meals he likes, bought board games which I knew he enjoyed etc. This is why we were not informed of their marriage, let alone invited, or told about the birth of DGD1 until 14 months later (only after stumping up £10k towards the property which they bought to rent out). Initially, they moved house without informing us of their new address and only provided that after we agreed to pay rent for their house during DD1's PGCE course.

We probably sound a bit pathetic, but we were happy to support DD1 in doing her course, as we thought that it would be good for her self development and confidence, as well as giving her a qualification so that she could become financially independent. We did hesitate about the £10k, but that was asked for as a loan, and we just took a view about it, not expecting to receive it back.

The problem is, when I reflect upon things, I see that the relationship had become very 'transactional' since DD1 met LB. However, I do believe that DH's death has changed DD1's way of thinking. She clearly, genuinely, wants to be reconciled with her sisters, as well as me. And I could tell from the FaceTime calls which we had, almost overwhelming in number, that she was so happy to be back in touch with me. I told her that her sisters did not speak ill of her, that DD2 was actually very sympathetic towards her regarding the loss of their Dad, that they were genuinely pleased to hear about DGC3, that nobody thought ill of her, it was more a case of a silence which had grown. I said that I was sorry for having been angry with her, that my anger was a part of my grieving process, but that I was not angry any more, that life was too short, how much I loved her etc. And she said how much she loved me and she was very concerned that I should look after myself.

I said that when I made LB leave the house, I had handled it very badly, but I had been trying to protect her, that I had overreacted partly as it was 'deja vue'. in that she had previously been in a relationship which had she subsequently told me was abusive, and I felt terrible that I had not protected her. I said that I knew that LB would never forgive me and she did not disagree.

After that incident, now 6 years ago, my hope was that LB loved DD1 enough to not want her to be estranged from her family. He had actually said to me that the one who would be hurt the most would be DD1. In the end though, it seems that his pride is greater than his love. We didn't estrange after a row. I believe that it took a while for LB to talk DD1 into an estrangement. DH and I visited for a couple of days, stayed in an hotel, met DD1 off site, took her out for dinner, went to an art gallery. LB dropped her off at the restaurant but refused to meet us or join us, although he was invited. DD1 had done a beautiful drawing of my dog, whom I had recently lost, for my birthday, hugged us when we left and told us how much she loved us. When I turned to wave goodbye, she had a sad, wistful expression on her face, so I think that she had agreed with LB to cut us off. I often wondered if the picture was, in fact, a farewell gift.

Of course, she did not know at that stage, none of us did, that DH had a terminal illness. The reason that DD2 is so sorry for DD1 is that she has missed all of that time with DH which she could have had. And DD1 must know this, she tells me how much she loved him, how much she misses him, and I know that she means it. I also told her about the conversation with LB where he said that she would suffer the most and she said that she had. I genuinely don't believe that she will estrange again, which is all I need to know really.

I said that I wanted to build a good relationship with LB, as he is her DH, father of her DC, father of my DGC etc, but a lot of people don't like their in laws, that of course LB and I should be able to have a civil relationship for her sake, but I also did not mind meeting her away from the house. I said that LB should not instruct my relationship with my DD and my DGC. She did not disagree, but said that LB loved her very much.

However, I detected a shift in her attitude, maybe slight but definitely there, that she is thinking more independently now. And although the realisation may take a lot longer, at some stage she must surely reach the conclusion that LB has prevented her from spending the precious time which she could have had with her much loved father.

Sorry this is so long!

OP posts:
ChopinandChampagne · 07/06/2021 09:12

Sorry for the typo 'deja vu' - Blush

OP posts:
Dillidilly · 07/06/2021 09:33

I lost my temper, handled it appallingly, said that he was controlling, that nobody liked him, that he wasn't good enough for my daughter, and that if he didn't leave, I would call the police.

I have read your previous thread, and this one, and your sadness is palpable.
I'm saying this gently, but I think this disclosure reframes the whole narrative.

Sssloou · 07/06/2021 09:51

Wow Chopin that’s a HUGE conversation - so much ground and emotional depth covered.

Sounds like a massive breakthrough.

How did you feel after that conversation and now having processed it and summarised it?

Ghostontoast1 · 07/06/2021 10:14

Does sound like a small breakthrough, but after she got the “money enquiry” out.

ChopinandChampagne · 07/06/2021 10:32

Dillidilly - There has been more than one thread. I had the first one deleted, as I felt that it was too 'outing'. The thread had been running for a while before I asked LB to leave the house and there were lots of 'red flags' around his treatment of DD1.

I will not try to defend myself, as I agree that those words should not have been spoken, and I have apologised several times to him. But, as I said to DD on Saturday, I cannot unsay what has been said or undo what has been done. I have told everything, warts and all, so as not to put any gloss on my behaviour. I feel that I was right to ask him to leave, but wrong in the way I did it. If he had said then, I never want to see your mother again, I could have understood it, but I don't understand the pretend rapprochement and demands for money, or trying to obstruct DD's family relationships. She forgave me after a week. And, as DD agreed in our conversation on Saturday, DH never did anything wrong, but he suffered, everybody did, including DD.

DD was desperate for me and LB to make up and arranged for us to have a drink together before her graduation for that specific purpose. That was when he said that DD would suffer the most, so I thought we had an understanding. DD then turned up and I put my arm around LB and said everything was fine, but of course it wasn't.

I don't think I was wrong in my assessment of LB but I should not have done as I did. I should have kept my thoughts to myself, and I tried to do so. I know that the last thing you must ever do is to criticise your child's choice of partner, but it was the last straw, seeing her sobbing and locking herself in the bathroom. And then he wouldn't leave, when I asked him nicely. He is truly the only person introduced to me by any of my DDs, whom I have not been able to get on with.

Sssloou - I felt emotionally and physically drained and also quite sick. I slept for most of yesterday, and actually felt that I was coming down with the flu or something. But generally more positive, thank you.

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