SIL and money issues

[ChopinandChampagne]

I recently lost my DH and I thought that it would be nice to give some money to my DGDs, both toddlers, to set aside for their future as a gift from him. Realistically, they will not remember him, but I thought that if they have some money to spend on travel or driving lessons or to help with their university costs or whatever, they would think of him and know how much he loved them, even though he didn't live to see them grow up.

I did some internet research and the suggestions were for a Junior Isa, which a parent would need to set up, and I would then pay into, and the child could access at 18. Alternatively, a savings account, which I would be able to set up as a grandparent, as long as I produce a copy of the birth certificate, which the child can access and take over at 16.

So far, so good and, I thought, relatively uncontroversial, so I suggested it to my DD and said that I wanted to give each of the DGDs £10k from DH and the options. I said that I wanted it to be a separate account and that suggested that she open a Junior Isa or that I should open a savings account. Her response was that she would have to discuss it with SIL and I said fine, thought no more it. Then, I sense that there is a bit of tension and DD says she wants to set up a telephone call with both her and SIL one evening, to discuss the matter after the DGDs are in bed. This was a text, so I reply saying fine, is now a good time, but DD said not, but we could schedule a couple of days later, but only if she has completed her coursework for her studies.

Then, a couple of days ago, I receive an email from SIL, from whom I never hear anything direct, advising me that if I really want to put money in an account, he will open one, but that he thinks that it is a bad idea, as inflation will erode the money. He thinks I should invest it in gold bullion or some other specific account (he says he has recently opened one for DD), and he provided links to various websites.

The tone of the email comes across, not as friendly advice, but telling me what to do. I have said that I will have a rethink, but I am worried about offending him if I don't follow his advice. I feel that he is trying to control how I invest the money. He refers to it as my wanting to invest for the DGD's future, which it is partly, but it is also about wanting the DGDs to remember or be reminded of DH. I don't really want to invest in bullion, as I think it's a bit volatile, and the idea of a bank account is that the DGDs would get the bank statements and maybe learn how to save.

Does anyone have any advice on how best to handle this diplomatically? There is quite a bit of history with SIL (Lobster Boy for those who remember my previous threads), but things are on a reasonably even keel at present and I currently have a good relationship with DD, which I don't want to upset. She says that there is no rush to decide how best to invest the money, it is important to get it right.

Justilou and billy, thank you so much for your supportive posts, especially so early in the morning!

You are right that I did not intend to drip feed, and I only shared this information with my therapist this week. I am conscious that this is a public forum and I wasn't ready to lay my soul bare, and am only doing so now, because I have come to trust you as my friends over the years, since my first thread. I have generally sought advice on specific issues, but inevitably more of the background has been revealed as time has gone on. And I also think that if there is too much information, it can be an overload and people will be bored with it all.

I suppose that I have also tried to block out certain things from the past and, whilst DH was alive, it was much easier to do so. He was at boarding school from the age of 10, and had to learn self-sufficiency, to the extent where he told his parents not to come on the exeat weekends, as he found it easier to compartmentalise, rather than face the pain of seeing his parents and then separating again. So he wasn't open about his feelings, except to me, and didn't really 'do' mental health issues, as he just thought that you had to get on with life. Which isn't to say that he wasn't supportive of the DDs, because he was.

I knew that DD1 was mentally fragile, but so are a lot of adolescents and young women (and men also), and there was an explanation for the self harming. I had never seen DD1 be violent and she presents as very articulate, normal, warm, the sort of person that makes friends easily, unlike LB who is the opposite of all that. And she had always loved her family, and I mean really loved them. I remember her telling me that she loved her sisters with all her heart. And she has genuinely been so pleased to have me back in her life - I don't believe that it is fake - I could see her happiness when we were FaceTiming with the DGDs, she was relaxed and proud to tell me of their achievements. DGD1 can name different types of dinosaurs and the characters from 'Black Beauty' and DGD2 can say hello, and they recognise me as 'Granny'. In those calls we were becoming close again, like mother and daughter, like we used to be. It was becoming normal, at least I believe so.

But I did feel that she was being permitted to have this contact and that LB's permission has now been withdrawn, because DD1 repeated my unfortunate remarks. He monitors her every move and contact, has full access to her 'phone etc. I knew as soon as I put the 'phone down that she would report to LB, because she is open and has no filter, trusts him implicitly, and who else would she speak to? I think he was beginning to see me as less of a threat, but now I am once again cast as the enemy. Which is why I feel that I have 'blown it'.

And DD2 and DD3 do still love DD1 even thought they only want limited contact at present. When we were informed that she was expecting DGD2 (and before we knew about DGD1), DD2's first concern was, as was mine, to worry that she might develop PND. DD2 has also told me that it was wrong of me to be angry with DD2, because she can't change the past, I will only make her feel guilty and, unlike DD2, her sister did not spend the last months with DH, that she already has a mountain of guilt without my adding to it, even if it is only at a subconscious level. And part of me thinks that she is right, but I am not sure whether DD1 thinks in the same way as DD2. She has expressed grief and clearly mourns DH, but she says things such as 'grief is love with no place to go', 'we will keep his memory alive', he lives on through the DGC, that he died at home surrounded by the people who loved him. And all of this is true, of course, and I don't want her to feel bad or guilty, and I know that she is under a lot of pressure. However, on the surface, she seems to have come to terms with DH's death, whilst the rest of us are all still broken by it.

So then I blame myself for being angry, although I know that it is part of my grief, but I know that DH would not have wanted this. My therapist thinks that I am being 'gaslighted' - I don't know, but I do know that all of this is driving me mad and raking up a lot of past pain.

If she has borderline then she will be desperate to keep in with LB at all costs, that will likely override anything and everything else.

Just KOKO one day at a time

I think @Sssloou and I (and undoubtedly several or many others here) are quite protective of you because we see vulnerable parts of our (past?) selves in you, @ChopinandChampagne. In my case, my Dad was a classic Narcissist, my Mum swung between Narc & BPD. My brother BPD. I grew up totally exhausting every available facet of “self” trying to appease the other three members of my family and it was never going to be good enough. In your case, you can love your daughter without liking her behaviour. You don’t have to trust her motives or respect her decisions. You can set adequate boundaries to ensure that you and your other DD’s are emotionally safe. She has shown who she is to you over and over again. Nobody wants to think badly of their kids, but when it comes to borderline personality disorders, I think you have every reason to distrust their motives. There is almost always a reason... attention-seeking, blame-shifting, mood-lifting, anything in that moment. I am deeply, deeply disturbed by her admission that she likes killing the quails. It is symptomatic of BPD, by the way. I think you WILL hear from her when she wants something and you are going to have to change the expected game plan. As I said previously, be pleasant and polite, but have other plans. Be distant and busy. Please don’t let her use those kids to manipulate you. The kids will probably come to you themselves when they are teenagers anyway.

Thank you everyone and, as ever, I will consider your replies very carefully. But I just realised that there was a typo in my last but one post. I meant to say that my DF ie father, was unfaithful, not DH, who was faithful and loving and supportive from the first day we met.

One day, shortly after we became engaged, my brother visited and then left for the evening, or so we thought. The police brought him to the door (it was a block of flats), after neighbours had complained when my brother was found drunk or stoned and asleep in the basement. My DH immediately said that my brother was his brother in law, didn't miss a beat.

ChopinandChampagne
Thank you for your most recent posts giving more insight into the extended family dynamics.
You have been advised numerous times on this thread to take a step back. Not to be manipulated by DD1 and LB.

I really think you should heed that advice.
Stop suggesting meet ups etc.
You need to do it for your own headspace.
You are constantly being knocked back.
Why put yourself in the firing line ?
Is that what your dh would have wanted for you ? - the distress.
I doubt it.
Take care.

I did assume you meant your DF, not your DH, @ChopinandChampagne.... Somehow I feel that the whole tone of your description of your lovely DH would have changed somewhat if he'd been a cheater.

Another thing you need to think about @chopin is that DD1 is probably very, very driven by jealousy. One thing that may have kept her away from you and DH was your happiness. There is no way she's got it easy with LB - I know what it really stands for, but in my mind it stands for "Little Bastard". You two really had a love story, didn't you? It's a lot to live up to, and when you're naturally very competitive, it's virtually impossible. I think she removed herself from that for a reason. Did you ever feel like she was trying to squeeze between you and DH when she was growing up?

Oh Chopin it seems that the current situation with DD1 is an intense, dysregulated, emotional valency that is unconsciously very familiar to you since you have described your challenging family history.

Lots of layers of trauma, drama, tension, unresolved conflict, betrayal at play with codependency dynamics - always trying to “fix” or contain the addict or PD. Trying to keep so many emotional plates spinning and different people happy all at the same time to avert crisis.

It’s a family system that sucks members into to be over invested and compromising of their own boundaries, values and sense of self.

Lots of anxiety, ruminating, hand wringing, frustration, exhaustion, walking on eggshells, self sacrifice, over responsibility and total a imbalance in favour of the disordered person in the family.

If you look at your own DM do you see a way that she could have lived differently? Could she have detached from the worry, escalating issues and abuse which was all ultimately futile? Could she have lived a more joyous, lighter life, more engaged mindfully in the moment and the good people around her rather than be tormented and preoccupied with your DB and her DH?

Also how was it for you watching your DM suffer her whole life? Would it have been better for you to know that she wasn’t consumed, eroded and depleted by it all? Do you think that DD2 and DD3 need to have this same worry about you?

It feels a relief to read that you are getting specialist grief counselling because that is what is right in front of you and is your sole focus.

It is your task just to survive this tumultuous period of deep mourning. I suspect that you have always been a very proactive and productive woman and it’s maybe counterintuitive for you to now know that the work of grieving involves rest, sleep, dropping down into the emotion and going with the erratic flow of grief emotions. Don’t resist the grief pain - you have to feel it to heal it. It is not an indulgence or petty - it’s a process to endure and ultimately you will move through it to a different place in your own time.

Doing much much less to achieve more.

Mostly it will be all consuming, excruciating and exhausting - that’s why you need to consider yourself overwhelmed and fragile at this time and not engage or expose yourself to even minor additional stress for at least the next 18 months.

Self compassion with permission for self care.

Try not to second guess, doubt or minimise your feelings - they are real - you WERE upset about DGD birthday - why would you not be? It seems you feel you have to blunt your emotional reality to suit your DD1. You don’t have to do this. You can feel in full range technicolour and intensity because that is what being truly alive is about - BUT when, how or if you to interact or share this with with your DD1 is another choice.

It seems that this is taking up a disproportionate amount of your finite emotional capacity, headspace and time and probably physical strength for very little reward. You would be better to conserve and redirect that effort to focus on grieving for the untimely death of your DH.

You can’t be in two emotional places at once and if you overload your system you will become very ill indeed and may not bounce back for a very long time. Significant MH episodes can last years and years.

It seems that you are not going to get any answers, acknowledgment, apology or change in behaviour from her/them or the RS you want. Currently you have v limited controlled and monitored contact - technically more than in the past when you were ghosted. I think that this is as good as it is going to get sadly and it’s not ending anytime soon.

I wouldn’t let it dominate your own emotional health, the priority of grieving or your life with your DD2 and DD3 any longer because it will just continue to pollute and erode your lives - with the exact same outcome. I also wouldn’t be encouraging your DD1 to be involved with the family because her and LB will ruin every single event - like they did with DD2 graduation.

Protect your family from their behaviour. I also read recently that the NPD and BPD coupling is classic and very powerful as it directly feeds each other’s needs and issues.

If you suspect that your DD1 is emotionally vulnerable and has some BPD traits then this book might help you to understand her behaviour and cope better.

It is written by a highly regarded medic and was recommended on another thread. It has a preview where you can read a lot of the content.

www.google.co.uk/search?q=when+your+daughter+has+bpd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari

I hope that you can allow yourself to know that you will always love your DD1, that you have compassion for some potential undiagnosed instability but that she is has enough agency to conduct her own life and at the same time her poor behaviour towards others is not acceptable and as she is so volatile and emotionally dangerous to you at this time it’s appropriate that you withdraw for all your sakes.

It feels like you walk an exhausting tight rope with her and the best outcome is this detached vanilla fake RS where at least you are in contact - however if this is too exhausting, anxiety making and unpalatable for you then you can choose to take a further step back.

You have endured an awful lot in your life and you continue to do so - cut yourself some slack and be comfortable doing so.

Sssloou - I have just read your post for about the 10th time, as it is so perceptive and profound. Your advice is, as always, absolutely brilliant and has really resonated with me. It must have taken a long time to think about and write it and I am so, so grateful that you took the trouble to do so. I do genuinely think that, in no small part due to you and other wise posters, I have had a 'lightbulb' moment.

I have had a lot of time to think and process things over the last week, and I have already mentally stepped back. I received a short message from DD1 just saying that she was 'hurt and confused about last week', and I sent a brief but kind reply saying that she should look after herself, that I thought we were both grieving for Dad, and that he had loved her very much. I didn't ignore her but I didn't really engage either, because experience tells me that it is useless to try to do so, as it just promotes an angry rant, which then upsets me, so achieves nothing - quite the contrary.

And after the last rant I was so upset and I realised that I couldn't be any more upset so, in a sense, she has lost the power to hurt me. And I realised that, as Sssloou and others have said, it was indeed making me ill and non-functional. I was lying on my bed, which is in the position where DH's bed was in his final days, and thinking of how he must have felt when the life was ebbing out of him, and I felt that it was ebbing out of me too - which is ridiculous I know, because he had terminal cancer. But I felt so much that I wanted to be with him - I wouldn't ever do anything, but I felt worse than I have ever felt previously and knew that I couldn't carry on like this. And my wonderful dog and my daughter's cat comforted me.

And whereas I was previously awaiting the next missive from LB and DD1, I just felt relief when I didn't hear anything further, and I don't really want to hear anything, at least for the time being. My reactions were different from how they have been previously and I felt able to look at things in a more detached way. And having done so, I feel much more positive today. I found especial comfort in Ssloou's words about how it is more effective to do less to achieve more.

Justilou - I agree that DD1 hasn't got it at all easy with LB (which stands for Lobster Boy, which was the name given to him by a poster on the first thread and has sort of stuck), but I don't think she realises that yet. Thank you for your advice and also to LadyEloise. I think that the penny has finally dropped, but I know that I have been a bit dense and slow in getting to my current position, probably because I have been in denial about certain things, and also believed that I could fix them.

It's "good" to read you have reached that point.

I wonder if as well as grieving for your wonderful DH you also need to grieve for the relationship you had always wanted with DD1 and who you thought she was?

When you love your DC so much it's painful to accept that they aren't "lovely" family members for whatever reason. It's clear that you went above and beyond to give DD1 everything you could and she has thrown it back in your face repeatedly.

Keep On Keeping On one day at a time and connecting with DD2 and DD3 enjoying happy moments with them as well as the DPets.

Hi chopin I’ve reread your post several times, there is a real poetry in how you write, especially when your love for DH shines through.

I also admire your calm and kind ways of answering her, it’s so good to be able to move through the pain, to the acceptance. I said up thread that she will process your words in her own time, I think she is doing that, but is struggling to come to terms with it, her text was perhaps fishing for an apology and a backtrack, but you didn’t do that, so she will go away and process some more.

Hoping you have a lovely weekend 💐

That sounds very optimistic Chopin. although having gone through the lowest moment, realizing that in a way it can't get worse, leaves space for hope at least of improvement, & responding to DD1 briefly & giving her no ammunition.
Onwards & upwards

I am so sorry that you had to go through all of this @ChopinandChampagne... nobody deserves it, especially not genuinely kind people like yourself. You shouldn’t be dangling waiting for somebody’s scraps of attention like you have been. That’s a form of self-torture. I’m sure you have been focusing on trying to fix your relationship to fill the hole your relationship with your lovely DH has left, but that won’t heal you.

Thank you so much everyone and also for the very helpful PMs.

I actually had quite a good day on Sunday. DD2's BF came for the weekend again and that seems to be going well. I heard her laugh and that made me so happy. And I decided that I would cook a proper Sunday roast for him, not something I have done since sometime before DH died, as he had oesophageal cancer, and DD2 and DD3 are vegan. It took me a while, as I had almost forgotten how, but I managed it and I think it was a success (or at least he appeared to enjoy it a lot and was kind enough to say so). And I actually also found myself relaxing and laughing too, as we chatted over the meal.

I didn't sleep very well that night though, tossing and turning, and worrying about whether I had been too harsh with DD1, as she must be grieving for DH too and is quite fragile. But I have left things as they are for now. Before, I would have apologised, so that we could have glossed things over, but now I think that we probably need some time apart, just to reflect.

Random - It is kind of you to say that we did all we could and we certainly always loved her. I haven't confided in many people IRL about my situation, partly because I feel ashamed, but also because I don't want to 'bad mouth' DD1 to anyone who knows her. That is why I have found the therapist so helpful, as well as all my friends on here.

However, I have confided in a couple of close friends, including DD1's godmother, my in laws, and a former neighbour, who are all really shocked - and I mean genuinely shocked, not just trying to make me feel better. They all said, without exception, that they knew how much we loved the girls and couldn't have done any more for them.

The trouble is that you do begin to doubt yourself and I would go on various estrangement threads, usually during the early hours of the morning when I couldn't sleep. I lurked on the 'Stately Homes' thread more than once and would wonder which of the parents I resembled, who had left their DC so emotionally damaged that they did not want to have a relationship with them.

Thank you again everybody so much for your support.

Ah Chopin you really are in the deep trough of grief. I am glad that you are able to “let go” or at least change gear on the dynamics with DD1 because this was pulling you under.

Don’t doubt your actions at this time because these are choices you are making to literally try to survive and this was essential.

Of course your DD1 is grieving but I doubt in the same way as your other DDs. She has a busy life with a husband, career and the fun, spontaneity and distraction that comes with two toddlers. She chose to exclude her DF from her life for many years - so she can’t actually miss him that much. This is not to diminish anything she is feeling but to allow you to unburden yourself from concerns about her grieving.

It’s lovely that you were able to entertain DD2 new boyfriend. That was an incredible achievement for you and a huge gift to your DD2 from you in your current emotionally depleted state. And it’s wonderful that you gained some pleasure from this. This is where your future is. This is where you need to invest your finite emotional energy - and you will only have any spare if you plug the futile drain to DD1 and take care of yourself physically and emotionally through your grieving at this especially raw and vulnerable time.

Please don’t churn yourself up looking back on your parenting to find a stick to beat yourself with regarding DD1. She just met a nutter. If she was with someone else all your lives would be different and normal. There is nothing normal about their lives together and it’s a total squandering of your life to remain fixated trying to square the circle.

Be proud that you have got back in contact, that you have a level of communication, that you won’t be drawn in to be beaten up and spat out and that you know what this dysfunctional toxic personality disordered system is. Knowledge is power and you know how to play this game.

Be proud that your DD2 and DD3 and close and caring and are coping through this tough time - all because they have an emotionally intelligent, dedicated role model mother and the love of their DF to anchor and soothe them which doesn’t fade.

I also see DD1 as exceptionally competent in all of her activities and she didn’t get that drive and determination from nowhere. One day she will use that to extract her DCs from this RS. Nothing you can do until then except be confident that you know you gave her your best.

Thank you so, so much Sssloou for your infinite wisdom and support. I have PM'd you. X

I am really proud of how far you have come @ChopinandChampagne. You are no longer painting only romantic pictures of DD1 so that things are less painful to carry around, you actually look at her as a more complete, damaged human. You love her, but accept that she behaves badly, etc. You will begin to accept over time that you are not responsible for these heartless decisions, but her mental health pathology is. It doesn’t make it okay though.

Justilou - Thank you so much for your post and for your support, as well as giving me an opportunity to reply. I was fearing that my thread had died, either because it had just dragged on for a long time and people had given all of the advice which they could. Alternatively, I have been upset and worried all week that posters might think that I had misled them, as I think it was billy, who mentioned that some people might think that there had been a 'drip feed', although she did not think so herself.

I posted a very dark and pessimistic thread, when I was feeling particularly low - mainly about the loss of DH - which led me to reliving the past, and my brother's death, and feeling that history was repeating itself, it was all Fate etc, that DD1 was like my brother and so on. I have since had the post deleted, as I do not believe that it represented the reality of the situation, which I have set out in these and previous threads. I fear that I made her sound like a psychopath, when that is not the position at all.

For a start, DD1 is nothing like my brother was. She was a normal and loving little girl, made friends easily, did well at school, always popular, sensitive and emotional, could have tantrums/outbursts, but then so can we all - or most of us . Also, she could be manipulative, but more in a way of charming me and presenting logical reasons - for example, why we should have a family dog (protection for the family etc). It was all through love and persuasion. She was never violent or blackmailing or emotionally abusive or anything like that. She had a tight knit group of four close friends, who were friends for years, shared everything, went on holiday together, told each other their secrets, supported each other, went on holiday together etc - you get the picture.

She had an isolated episode of self-harming after her grandfather died and she developed OCD when she was taking her A levels, which I am sure was stress related. In fact, when she went to university, in the first year she was in student accommodation, where a number of students have to share a kitchen and, to be honest, it was pretty filthy. She said that her OCD was cured within a matter of weeks! She also made good friends at the university, particularly two close friends whom she was keen to introduce me to at the graduation. She has since lost contact with all of these people.

I do not believe that she ever tried to drown DD3 in the swimming pool. I have never seen DD1 show signs of violence towards her sisters other than normal sibling behaviour when young. DD3 also believes that DH tried to push her off the mountain when he was teaching her to ski, although I am sure that is not true either and also that DD3 never really believed it. She just likes to be dramatic sometimes and didn't take to skiing, so didn't want to do it any longer.

Thinking about things, and I have done a lot of thinking over the last few days, the suggestion of Borderline Personality Disorder was only raised after she met LB. I remember them standing in my kitchen, before the first thread, when I took everything at face value and assumed him to be a caring boyfriend. He described how she had gone at him with a knife (frankly, I think I could be tempted to do the same!), had tried to get out of a speeding car, and he was saying how she clearly had mental health problems, which he would support her with. His words were 'We need to get this sorted out, don't we?', looking at her in a caring fashion. And she nodded, and I thought how kind and understanding he must be. He definitely went up in my estimation at that stage. Now, of course, I believe the opposite, that he preyed upon her vulnerabilities.

I am standing back at present and there has been no contact for a week, since I sent her the short loving message I referred to. I was thinking of sending another short 'thinking of you' message, as I know that she has had a hard couple of weeks, but I haven't done so far.

What I have realised is that there is absolutely no point in trying to discuss the past with DD1, because she doesn't remember or only remembers what LB tells her. She says that nobody remembers what happened, only the hurt. I had this idea that if we could spend time together, we could talk things through properly, but LB will never allow it.

Please don't worry about the thread "dying", I think we follow your lead, if you post with something on your mind, we will respond if we think we have anything poignant to say.

i think it's good that you are letting things go quiet. Let her contact you. If you hear nothing, you just send a short message after a week, "Thinking of you, I hope all goes well, love to you & the children...."

So I think you are getting some clarity re LB. "We need to get this sorted out, don't we?" sounds over patronizing but I can see at the time you wouldn't dream of jumping to that conclusion.

Enjoy the calm & love of your other DDs

Chopin . I have not posted recently as haven’t really any advice but I do have an abundance of sympathy.
I know how it feels when you are searching and searching for a reason as to why the situation is as it is . I think this is what makes you look back on DD1’s childhood and try and identify things that may have pointed to this happening . It’s like looking at the past with a filter . With hindsight it’s easy to pick on incidents and see connections to how she is now . Ive done exactly the same .

At first I couldn’t think about any of the past without either thinking I must have been a difficult parent all of the time or she must have been a difficult child./ teenager /young adult all the time. Of course that wasn’t the case and to quote the amazing Sssloou if she hadn’t “met a nutter” none of those thoughts would have entered my head . It was when I was (reluctantly) looking through old family photographs to help my niece with a school project that I remember feeling totally stunned at how many happy, smiley loving pictures there were of my daughter and me together . I think that to allow me to deal with the pain of losing her I had myself rewritten our history as to accept that our once lovely relationship was gone was just too hard . Better to think it had never been good .
My daughter has certainly rewritten history with the help of her partner just as you say your DD has .
I’ve come to realise with time and the help of friends and family who were there at the time that we had a very normal life .
I’m sure it’s the same for you .

Sending you love . X

Oh @ChopinandChampagne please don’t think that, I feel I may have been clumsy in my wording.

The backstory to dd really wasn’t relevant to the initial question of the thread and you are still processing her behaviour yourself was all I meant. I do hope you feel this thread is a safe place for you to vent and help you to process what is going on.

That incident in the kitchen sounds so sinister and so seemingly innocent at the time. I wonder what he had done to evoke that reaction from her in the first place.

When your DD1 mentioned the "nobody remembers what happened only hurt"

I think she really means

No one remembers my truth that you didn't do x y z as LB wanted. No one remembers how much I was hurting.

She has never wanted to hear everyone else's truth nor does she accept or believe that she has very much hurt 4 other people and their feelings are just as valid as hers.

Just keep going one day at a time, take it as slow as you need to

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2268977-The-Abuser-Profiles

I have also been thinking about the kitchen discussion and get sinister vibes.

Not sure if you have seen this thread before - seems to me that LB is a combination of The Water Torturer, The Demand Man and The Drill Sargent along with the NPD outlined in the Mental Illness section.

Just one of these behaviours would drive anyone to distraction and it seems that this is what may have happened in the early days of their relationship.

She was likely goaded, manipulated and bullied into traumatic / dramatic outbursts and he subsequently gaslit her so that she believed she was unstable - rather than in fact her just having a normal trauma response to relentless emotional abuse by him.

She then maybe felt deeply ashamed of herself which incapacitated and emotionally broke her so she capitulated to his control which was all part of his plan. Then he totally isolated from everything and everyone to create a dependency.

Maybe she is only volatile now with you all because this is her only “safe” emotional place of release as living with his dark presence is a knife edge existence where she dare not put a foot wrong and needs to be 100% compliant with his extremely paranoid ideals. This may all be unconscious to her or may be way off beam but the families where one member has been unfortunate enough to get tangled up with an abusive nutter will recognise this impossible tension.

However as is often quoted on here it might explain her cruel and unacceptable behaviour but it still doesn’t excuse it.

Please post if you need help.

You're right about the not discussing the past. They've rewritten in from their own viewpoint and absolutely nothing you say will change the way they see it. It'll just annoy them.

I didn't see the post you deleted. So this advice isn't 'tarnished' you're still looking for the reason why dd1 behaves the way she is. Tbh does it matter? It sounds like she was always a bit tricky to manage and has fallen in with someone who is manipulating her. She also sounds like someone who looks after herself first. I think you'll feel 'better' when you accept that she is who she is. You won't change her.

Keep practicing the grey rock technique and hoping you feel some relief.

Hi @ChopinandChampagne how are you? I hope you’re having a good weekend and enjoying the weather.

I saw that you said in your last post that you’d had the other post deleted and that you’d feared you’d made DD1 sound like a psychopath. I don’t think you did but it was clear you’d be reflecting a lot. I got the impression (tell me if I’m wrong!) that you were trying to unpick why DD1 behaves as she does and whether anything in particular had occurred for this to happen.

I think it’s important to remember that one event can happen to three different people and have three very different outcomes. I, personally, think it can be down to their resilience, personality, outlook, environment/support network. I know you say she has always been able to be manipulative/charming. This type of behaviour is perceived very differently from children as opposed to adults and is less “cute” as we grow older. I also wondered whether she has always been easily influenced? I suppose this is a vulnerability and could mean that her morals/values are changeable? Going back to what I said about resilience etc- it sounds as though her outlook is very narrow and only focuses on herself/immediate family. Also, her environment is one where LB reinforces that their lifestyle is the right one and they are right with no movement for understanding other people’s lifestyles.

I used to work with detained women who had a dx of personality disorder. Mostly I worked with women with emotionally unstable pd (borderline). My advice for you would be boundaries boundaries boundaries. I can’t remember if she’s had a formal diagnosis or whether I’ve picked this up from the running thread (as in someone has suggested she may have it).

Going back on some things you’ve mentioned previously. Would you say she has quite a grandiose view of herself/LB/their family&lifestyle? Just with their expectations of others financially contributing etc...
Based on some of the past posts, it almost a sounds like they live a little bit cult-like.. I hope this doesn’t offend you or anyone else- but the way she admires him and sees him as centre to her thinking. With the quails and killing them despite her previously being vegan?

It must be very hard for you to navigate your role with DD1 and her family as I imagine it’s difficult to understand the dynamics.

In terms of your contact going forward, I would maybe send a thoughtful text saying you hope she and the girls and well and the pregnancy is okays to call you if she feels like a chat. That way you’re leaving the ball in her court and there can’t be any power-grabbing because it’s on her terms whether she contacts you.

I hope you’re looking after yourself and your other two lovely DDs have spent time with you over this lovely weekend x