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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

SIL and money issues

1000 replies

ChopinandChampagne · 24/01/2021 13:01

I recently lost my DH and I thought that it would be nice to give some money to my DGDs, both toddlers, to set aside for their future as a gift from him. Realistically, they will not remember him, but I thought that if they have some money to spend on travel or driving lessons or to help with their university costs or whatever, they would think of him and know how much he loved them, even though he didn't live to see them grow up.

I did some internet research and the suggestions were for a Junior Isa, which a parent would need to set up, and I would then pay into, and the child could access at 18. Alternatively, a savings account, which I would be able to set up as a grandparent, as long as I produce a copy of the birth certificate, which the child can access and take over at 16.

So far, so good and, I thought, relatively uncontroversial, so I suggested it to my DD and said that I wanted to give each of the DGDs £10k from DH and the options. I said that I wanted it to be a separate account and that suggested that she open a Junior Isa or that I should open a savings account. Her response was that she would have to discuss it with SIL and I said fine, thought no more it. Then, I sense that there is a bit of tension and DD says she wants to set up a telephone call with both her and SIL one evening, to discuss the matter after the DGDs are in bed. This was a text, so I reply saying fine, is now a good time, but DD said not, but we could schedule a couple of days later, but only if she has completed her coursework for her studies.

Then, a couple of days ago, I receive an email from SIL, from whom I never hear anything direct, advising me that if I really want to put money in an account, he will open one, but that he thinks that it is a bad idea, as inflation will erode the money. He thinks I should invest it in gold bullion or some other specific account (he says he has recently opened one for DD), and he provided links to various websites.

The tone of the email comes across, not as friendly advice, but telling me what to do. I have said that I will have a rethink, but I am worried about offending him if I don't follow his advice. I feel that he is trying to control how I invest the money. He refers to it as my wanting to invest for the DGD's future, which it is partly, but it is also about wanting the DGDs to remember or be reminded of DH. I don't really want to invest in bullion, as I think it's a bit volatile, and the idea of a bank account is that the DGDs would get the bank statements and maybe learn how to save.

Does anyone have any advice on how best to handle this diplomatically? There is quite a bit of history with SIL (Lobster Boy for those who remember my previous threads), but things are on a reasonably even keel at present and I currently have a good relationship with DD, which I don't want to upset. She says that there is no rush to decide how best to invest the money, it is important to get it right.

OP posts:
Clutterbugsmum · 17/05/2021 08:55

Unfortunately this was always going to happen.

If you go back over your pervious threads about DD1 and LB, this is their behaviour they hoover you in, then tap you for money. Then when you don't give it to them they blow up blaming you and they withdrawal contact with them until they try again.

I think as hard as it is you need to accept they only want you in your life if you keep your wallet fully open to them. They don't want a relationship you, DD2 & DD3. They only wan what they can get out of you.

They are never going to change.

ChopinandChampagne · 17/05/2021 16:18

I am so sorry not to have responded, but I have read each and every message and you are all an amazing support to me. Now that the pubs have opened up today, I wish that I could take you all out for a drink to say thank you!

Being honest, I didn't have a very good weekend, and spent most of it in my bedroom and slept a ridiculous amount. I was just feeling a bit sorry for myself and thinking about DH, recalling how we met, the joy that we had, and generally just grieving I suppose, as people face loss and grieve every day, but it's still very hard to cope with when it happens to you. But I had some bereavement counselling this afternoon from the hospice which helped DH and they have offered me another six sessions, which is immensely kind of them. I found it really helpful.

I will respond fully in the next day or two. I haven't responded to DD1. I literally can't cope with this any more, at least for the time being, and she would probably say the same. I love her and want nothing but the best for her and feel sorry that I can't support her - I know that she grieves DH, as we all do - but I just need to concentrate on surviving from day to day, at present. Sorry to sound so pathetic.

OP posts:
RandomMess · 17/05/2021 16:23

Please be kind to yourself. You seem to be expecting an awful lot of yourself.

DD1 is very busy so it's easier for her to ignore/block out all things traumatic or emotionally to not grieve.

You have a massive chasm in your hour to hour life.

Big hugs.

LorthernNights · 17/05/2021 16:42

I was really pleased that you told DD1 how you felt . As others have said it had to happen before you could move forward with any form of meaningful relationship with her.

You have been in my thoughts all weekend . Sorry it’s been such a difficult one for you . It’s still such early days in your grief and you are right to prioritise yourself at this stage . 🌸🌸🌸💜

Sssloou · 17/05/2021 17:08

@LorthernNights

I was really pleased that you told DD1 how you felt . As others have said it had to happen before you could move forward with any form of meaningful relationship with her.

You have been in my thoughts all weekend . Sorry it’s been such a difficult one for you . It’s still such early days in your grief and you are right to prioritise yourself at this stage . 🌸🌸🌸💜

Maybe it also had to happen so that you could move forward with this the hardest stage of your own grief.

You needed to release the stress of her / drop the focus of her direction (even temporarily) in order to free up your own emotional capacity to allow you to immerse yourself solely in processing the tragic loss of your DH. This is a very difficult time and just getting through each morning, afternoon and evening is exhausting. Sleeping is good. You need it. Try to be really, gentle, kind and self compassionate with zero expectations of yourself. Think what you would advise a good friend in your situation and take that kindness for yourself.

SisterConcepta · 17/05/2021 17:31

Dear OP, I am so sorry to hear of your loss.
Unfortunately what your are experiencing is not uncommon. Many children abuse their parents in this way - it is very painful and most people just never talk about it. It happened in my family. My db and his now wife did the same evening course as yours on to 'How to be an entitled greedy victim of my horrid family' - suddenly accusing our family of not accepting her, having a secret wedding with her family only and then cutting off all his lovely friends, wider family and his sisters as well as barely contacting my elderly parents, just showing up unannounced randomly on his own to demand his inheritance. Initially, like my Mum, we all blamed her - 'she had changed him' but after the way he started to bully my parents to sign over their estates to him, we began to really see him for who he really was and decided we were done with him in our lives. It took time to get over the questioning of myself as a person, the shame, the anger, the hurt and the pain. It was a grieving process but time is a great healer.
I do acknowledge that as a sister with my own family, it is much easier than for my mother who absolutely adored the baby of the family and did so much for him. It truely broke her heart. Today her health is in a dire condition. I know that the stress he caused her had a huge impact on both her mental health and physical health.

I am writing OP because I have watched first hand how vulnerable my parents became when they got older. In your 60s you are relatively young and strong. You have strength to put your foot down e.g. the whiskey. By your 80s it is a completely different story and when old and frail, people are so much easier to exploit. In your old age you need to be surrounded by friends and family who have your best interests at heart.

People say you have to play the long game.. they are right. You have the rest of your life to live and you deserve a decent quality of life. You sound like a wonderful caring and kind person who has so much to give.
DD1 may leave him but she may not. What you have revealed about her (especially the despicable present to her dying father) indicates that they are pretty well matched.

Please protect yourself ... and think of yourself in your later years.

Justilou1 · 17/05/2021 20:28

I’m so sorry your DH is no longer with you. I don’t think it’s fair... You two sound like ideal parents. Loving, kind, in love... The best of examples. I wish to show my kids something similar from my marriage. I am so pleased you are having some specialist counselling @ChopinandChampagne. I’m so proud of you for taking the step.

billybagpuss · 17/05/2021 21:17

Just sending hugs @ChopinandChampagne and hoping I can send you strength too. 💐

BluebellCockleshell123 · 18/05/2021 09:51

Dear ChopinAndChampagne,

You sound exhausted with it all and I am not surprised. The double grief of dealing with your beloved DH's death and trying to come to terms with your daughter's actions must be so hard to cope with. I don't think I have any useful advice, but I have followed your threads since the beginning and just wanted I had to voice some more support for you.

I am glad that you recognised that you need to retreat a little from DD1 to protect your own health. Please be kind to yourself and try to find some small daily joy in the little things in life. You always sound like such a lovely, warm, compassionate woman. Please take care of you. Flowers

HappydaysArehere · 18/05/2021 10:28

Your idea is lovely and so well thought out. No way let them take over. My feeling is that your good intention will end up being used by them. Perhaps I am doing them an injustice but it is too easy to “borrow”that money and also stipulate what the children do with it.
I would do what you intended to do at the start and I would let the children know that you have this money from their grandad and you are keeping it safe until they are old enough to take charge of it. We did something similar for our grandchildren by saving regularly in savings in their names and even involving them by getting them to hand money over to the cashier. One of the grandchildren grew up and studied economics and asked me how I felt about him using some of the money to buy shares. That worked out fine and as we said it was his money to do as he wished. The same with the other grandson. No problems whatsoever and certainly not from the parents. I wouldn’t even discuss it with them and no way let them be in charge of books or whatever form the deposits come in. Just say no need for any discussion because you have made a decision and if they don’t like it then it will have to be set aside in your will as you don’t want bad feeling to cloud a gift intended to be given in love.

forrestgreen · 19/05/2021 11:53

You need to focus on yourself and find a way to com with dd that gives you a degree of separation.

ChopinandChampagne · 19/05/2021 12:04

Good morning everyone and thank you so much for your supportive messages.

I haven't replied properly for a few days, as I was just feeling a bit overwhelmed and exhausted by everything. It was useful to have the specific bereavement therapy, which seemed to home in and target things very effectively. It was a first session, but the counsellor picked up that the issues with DD1 are having a detrimental effect and regarded my grief as more complicated, as it is like a double bereavement. She also thought that DD1 might have a personality disorder and advised me to step back, said that grief is exhausting, and that it is fine not to do too much and to have a 'duvet day'. She made me feel that what I am going through is normal, indeed she said as much. That, in itself, made me feel a bit better, that I have 'permission' to do nothing, although I do try to do some things each day, even basic things, so that I don't go to bed feeling that the day has been totally wasted.

In réponse to various comments, yes the book was the 'Gulag Archipelago' by Solzhenitsyn. I don't think that it was intended to be cruel, although it was certainly insensitive. LB was reading it at the same time and thought that it was interesting, so they decided to buy DH a copy. LB sees himself as an intellectual and DD1 seems to hang off his every word, so I suspect that the suggestion came from him and that she just went along with it. She was surprised when I said that I was already familiar with it, as I had read it many years ago.

I had assumed that they gave DH a second hand copy as it was out of print but no, it is readily available on Amazon. For DH's 59th birthday, they gave him a 60th birthday card and a cheap wooden picture frame containing some photocopies of pictures of DH and DD1 together. It's not that I or DH wanted anything expensive, and indeed he was always grateful for everything, but it's the lack of thought, that they got the year wrong. For my 60th birthday, I received a card three weeks after the date and DD1 hadn't realised that it was a significant date (maybe I look young for my age Grin). And these cards would say 'We hope you have a relaxing day' and signed by them both, no love or personal messages like I receive from DD2 and DD3, but the sort of cards and messages that you would send to a distant relation whom you never saw - maybe that's how they see us.

What does LB do all day? The answer is, so far as I can ascertain, not very much. He has a 'workshop' with various tools, such as lathes etc and starts lots of DIY jobs, which seem to take forever to finish. In the meantime, DD1 is full of admiration at the performance of these manly tasks and takes on all of the childcare, cooking, cleaning etc. I think that she was managing whilst there were two DC and she was not working, but she has found it exhausting juggling all this with studying and teaching. When it all becomes too much, they usually rely on LB's mother to step in. For example, when DD1 was doing a compulsory on line course for a week, her MIL kindly took the DGDs for four days but, on the 5th day, when MIL wasn't available, DD1 had the DGDs with her and just had the course on in the background. On one day last week, when DD1 had a big backlog of marking and coursework, MIL again took the DGDs for the day. DD1 told me that she is like a 7/11 shop because she is always 'open'.

I am so pleased that some of you think that I actually did the right thing by expressing my feelings, as I was kicking myself for having 'blown' the reconciliation. I am just so afraid of being hurt again. I tried to explain this to DD1, saying also that I was struggling so much with the loss of DH, that I was 'literally at the end of my rope'. not really well or coping terribly well, having therapy etc. But it just seems to wash over her, it doesn't make any difference, she won't make any allowances for me. No matter how hard I try to open up dialogue and tell her that I love her and want to work things through, she just explodes and becomes angry, then says she needs to speak to LB, who of course is not my biggest supporter. I sent her a short message on Monday just wishing her well, as she had an assessment, but there has been no reply, of course.

Thank you Lockdown and all of you for your wise advice and, also, to Sssloou, whose has an uncanny knack of seeing right inside my head and who has been a massive support to me, as you all have. Please note though that I am happy to receive criticism as well, because I feel that if I knew what I had done wrong, I might be able to fix it. Part of me thinks that I was wrong to get upset about not visiting on DGD1's birthday and should just have gone the next day, that I have 'soured' it all. But I was feeling that I would be alone and vulnerable and hundreds of miles from home, so wanted to try to clear the air first. However, I think that one of the previous posters was right in saying that I will probably never know. Basically, I need to come to terms with it all, but it does make it hard to reconstruct and rebuild. And I know that DD1 is under a lot of pressure at present and the last thing I want to do is to add to it. billy, I hope that you are right and that DD1 will process things, maybe when she has more time. She doesn't understand why I, and her sisters, can't just pick up where they left off. And she has been making an effort to be in touch and change things going forward, so maybe I was too harsh. It has all just been a bit too much on top of everything else. The bereavement counsellor says that my anger is natural and part of the grieving process.

Justilou, there hasn't been a miscarriage, not as far as I am aware anyway, although I wonder if she would tell me now and, of course, I am worried about her. Thank you so much, and to everyone, for your kindness.

forrest, it is interesting that you use the words 'fake relationship', because that is how it feels, what my therapist describes as not 'authentic', which I personally find very difficult to deal with right now.

Concepta, I am very sorry to hear that you and your DP have experienced a similar situation. It's soul destroying, isn't it? I think that you are spot on in saying that whereas there is energy in your 60s to deal with this type of thing, the risk is that we become more vulnerable as we become older. I am in the process of redoing my will following DH's death and it will follow a similar format to what we agreed, ironically, just before his diagnosis. Each DD will inherit one third to be shared equally with any of their own DC. DD2 and DD3 are my executors but not DD1 as, sad to say, I don't completely trust her, certainly whilst she remains with LB, which is a terrible admission. As another poster has said, these situations do give rise to deep feelings of personal failure. Interestingly, DD1 did admit to a feeling of having failed in her relationships with her sisters, which was the nearest that there has been to any acknowledgement of the hurt caused. But since then she has obviously discussed matters with LB again and has clammed up and reverted to victim mode.

Gosh, this is a long post. My apologies!

OP posts:
RandomMess · 19/05/2021 14:10

It's strange for me as I was very LC from my parents. Mainly because there was never an authentic relationship with them and unfortunately I suffered at the hands of my older brother.

My parents wanted a fake relationship, to give zero emotional support and play happy families at Christmas Confused I could give examples.

Having contact with them triggered my trauma etc and make me ill.

So similarities yet also significant differences.

However even I invited them to my wedding, invited my brother at their request 🙄, never hinted or asked for money not expected it. I kept them away from my DC though because their parenting was very lacking.

I have always been sad it couldn't be different and I couldn't slap on a smile and make it happen even on a fake basis. Sad for my parents really more than myself or DC.

To go from having a close and loving authentic relationship when DD1 was a young adult to where you are now is true grief and probably traumatic as well. I mean deep grief and deep trauma.

You need to be kind and give yourself permission to only have the level of contact/relationship you can handle with DD1. I suspect she has rewritten history in her head and erased that you had a close, loving, supportive, authentic relationship.

I never had that with my parents some of my earliest memories are of feeling alone and that I couldn't tell anyone about anything bad such as being bullied at primary school.

Perhaps treating her as a distant younger cousin is a more realistic aim. You have your younger DDs you have loving authentic relationships there invest in them.

Thanks
RandomMess · 19/05/2021 14:12

Have you watched the TED talks by Brene Brown on the power of vulnerability and shame? They really hit things spot on about being your authentic self.

Pemba · 19/05/2021 14:39

You must be a nicer person than me. I have a very close relationship with my (only) daughter and she is lovely, but if she treated me like your DD1 has done, I think my love would be starting to evaporate by now! And I would be feeling angry. The way she has behaved is appalling, and the choice she made... I feel sorry for your DGC being raised by those two. Perhaps it's fortunate though that you don't know them that well, it will protect you emotionally.

I would concentrate on your loving DDs 2 and 3 (who have been maligned by DD1). You're lucky to have them. Was DD1 originally your favourite really do you think? Put DD1 and LB at the back of your mind, and don't offer any more help, they don't deserve it.

I am sorry if you don't find that helpful, but I think you need to get angry, otherwise she can continue emotionally abusing you, as well as financially milking you.

Mix56 · 19/05/2021 16:40

I agree, you have every right to be angry.
You are offering to travel several 100s of miles alone to visit them & they are prepared to let you sit alone in a hotel while they eat Birthday cake.
Sorry, the "we want to be just family as usual" is rubbish, it hasn't been established over decades, the kids are under 3.
They hardly understand birthdays anyway & Granny coming could delight them. They can live just the 4 of them all the rest of the year.
It is hurtful, deliberate & they know it.

I would withdraw now. Don't call her. Don't message her. Be kind to yourself, if she calls keep everything minimal & neutral. Cut it short.

& if she bothers to ask if you are coming, I would say "Why would you foist yourself on people who don't want to see you".
She has behaved appallingly, really unspeakably cruel, both to you & her father, & her sisters
She has her narrative, I hope it comforts her.

I also think that you love the child you cherished, but not the person she has become. She needs therapy, but until she gets it, there is nothing you can do other than retreat.

AnotherKrampus · 19/05/2021 17:49

Oh OP, I am so sorry for your loss and having to deal with such a horrendous manipulative SIL and to a similar extent daughter. I am really glad that you actually told her just how hurtful her behaviour was. And I really hope that you will summon up some much overdue and totally justified anger of their behaviour, in particular that of your daughter. This has been such a one-sided and exhausting time for you, forced to walk on eggshells and contorting yourself on some mentally abusive tightrope, purely set up to trip you up, contorting yourself over a ridiculously self-centred and down-right manipulative child. I have followed your first and subsequent thread and of course agree that SIL is an utter prick but your daughter is really not much better and you need to take back some power in this dreadful situation and start looking after your own emotional health. Please for your own sake and that of your wonderful other daughters go LC for a while and give yourself proper time to heal and cut off the oxygen of abuse both your SIL and your daughter feed on and continually dish out to you. I think you really need to set aside the narrative that SIL is abusive and your daughter is trapped. She is very instrumental in the continued abuse and punishment of you. Were she really a mere pawn in this whole shit show, then she could keep the content of your calls to herself and not weaponise them. But no, she feeds it and encourages it. Stop humouring her and start setting up some long overdue healthy boundaries. Your daughter is not the victim in this but one of the perpetrators and typically, she did not like to hear the truth or respect your feelings at all. If your daughter is actually genuine, then she will need to reach out and make some genuine effort. You are the one who ought to be comforted and the focus of some attention, not the other way round. I understand that you don’t want to be petty about paying for her phone, fair enough but stop any further financial outlay. That sponging pair had enough and it isn’t fair on your other daughters! Seeing your children and grandchildren should never amount to pay-per-view!

AnotherKrampus · 19/05/2021 17:51

PS: Start focusing much more on DD2 and DD3. If you stop pandering to your cruel and abusive D1, you will probably have so much more energy and feel a lot better already. Sadly, all too often the badly behaved child gets far too much attention.

Justilou1 · 19/05/2021 23:02

I am so pleased that you’re happy with the counsellor @ChopinandChampagne. I know how liberating it was to have my feelings about my treatment from my family validated. (They were also cruel - but charming to others, so I genuinely felt crazy and disloyal thinking that I could possibly think that way about my own family, when that was exactly how they perpetuated the cruelty in the first place...) On that note, it is likely that your DD1 IS underwhelmed with her lazy DH but needs to perpetuate the romantic illusion she has of him being the creative, romantic, hands-on, craftsman. Once the in-laws completely distance themselves and their money dries up, and all childcare and financial pressure lands squarely on your DD1, she is not going to be able to continue with the fantasy. Resentment will build and build, etc...

rejectedcarrit · 20/05/2021 22:41

@ChopinandChampagne I am so sorry you are going through this. At one point I was estranged from my father. His choice initially but it gave me an opportunity to see how difficult it had been to have him in my life. His behaviour had been pretty hurtful in the run up to the estrangement and during the break I experienced the relief of not having this energy drain and hurt in my life.

If you need to step back to protect yourself, you should. I think you actually did the right thing to voice the hurt. She's not listening though and may never do so. It's so sad, no matter how much you love her, you can't fix this one and your love will just serve to hurt you. Concentrate on your other two daughters who will love you back. DD1 is lost to you.

ChopinandChampagne · 21/05/2021 05:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Justilou1 · 21/05/2021 06:10

@ChopinandChampagne You have been very, very brave writing everything down like this. We have a very clear idea about your DD’s behaviour. We certainly don’t think that this is something that you have created. (Although I believe that people with Borderline Personality Disorders keep their families so on edge waiting for the next “episode/outburst” that they are trained to appease them constantly by very rarely saying no - whether they are nagged into submission, physically beaten or frightened by the explosive or disruptive behaviours, it’s just.... incessant and looming living with these people.) No wonder you miss your DH so much. He wasn’t just your partner in life - he had your back in battle, too. Now you have your other DD’s, but it is not something we ask of our kids, is it? Do we pit our kids against a sibling either? No! How could we do that? Your DD1 is broken, Darling. I’m afraid you have to leave her and her spouse to their own games. She WILL come crying to you, and it would be irresponsible not to be deeply suspicious of her motives when she does. Don’t fall for the Prodigal Daughter crap, or you might find yourself losing two more daughters out of frustration and lack of respect.

Billybagpuss · 21/05/2021 06:46

I agree with @Justilou1 you are so brave writing all of this down, in other threads it might be referred to as a massive drip feed, but it’s probably as much of a drip feed to you as you process things and put the pieces together. So much does make sense when you think about this as a very real possibility. Also if she self harmed before in grief tinged with guilt, I’m sure those feelings must be present with her now as well, motherhood will change her focus a bit but I’m sure the feelings of guilt and regret are still there.

I hope she does reply to you as I fear you will start letting the (unjustified) feelings of guilt get to you if she doesn’t, wishing you’d never called her out etc. But I do feel for your own protection it was the right thing to do. You will always love her, but it is not right for you to have to second guess absolutely everything you say, that is no relationship.

Sending hugs, 💐

CraftyYankee · 21/05/2021 08:22

If you haven't said all of this post to your therapist you should send it to them to read. It is very layered and there's a lot there to unpack with a counselor. You are not to blame for any of it but it is hard to accept that for yourself.

RandomMess · 21/05/2021 08:43

Your DH was desperate for reconciliation.

Please me mindful that this isn't true reconciliation and that is unlikely to happen. This is a very superficial relationship. Don't feel beholden to what you and DH agreed or carrying on reaching out if it comes too much of a cost to your own wellbeing.

It's clear DD1 blames you for all of it and takes no responsibility for her behaviour, actions or choices. Don't let yourself become the whipping boy.

Thanks
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