SIL and money issues

[ChopinandChampagne]

I recently lost my DH and I thought that it would be nice to give some money to my DGDs, both toddlers, to set aside for their future as a gift from him. Realistically, they will not remember him, but I thought that if they have some money to spend on travel or driving lessons or to help with their university costs or whatever, they would think of him and know how much he loved them, even though he didn't live to see them grow up.

I did some internet research and the suggestions were for a Junior Isa, which a parent would need to set up, and I would then pay into, and the child could access at 18. Alternatively, a savings account, which I would be able to set up as a grandparent, as long as I produce a copy of the birth certificate, which the child can access and take over at 16.

So far, so good and, I thought, relatively uncontroversial, so I suggested it to my DD and said that I wanted to give each of the DGDs £10k from DH and the options. I said that I wanted it to be a separate account and that suggested that she open a Junior Isa or that I should open a savings account. Her response was that she would have to discuss it with SIL and I said fine, thought no more it. Then, I sense that there is a bit of tension and DD says she wants to set up a telephone call with both her and SIL one evening, to discuss the matter after the DGDs are in bed. This was a text, so I reply saying fine, is now a good time, but DD said not, but we could schedule a couple of days later, but only if she has completed her coursework for her studies.

Then, a couple of days ago, I receive an email from SIL, from whom I never hear anything direct, advising me that if I really want to put money in an account, he will open one, but that he thinks that it is a bad idea, as inflation will erode the money. He thinks I should invest it in gold bullion or some other specific account (he says he has recently opened one for DD), and he provided links to various websites.

The tone of the email comes across, not as friendly advice, but telling me what to do. I have said that I will have a rethink, but I am worried about offending him if I don't follow his advice. I feel that he is trying to control how I invest the money. He refers to it as my wanting to invest for the DGD's future, which it is partly, but it is also about wanting the DGDs to remember or be reminded of DH. I don't really want to invest in bullion, as I think it's a bit volatile, and the idea of a bank account is that the DGDs would get the bank statements and maybe learn how to save.

Does anyone have any advice on how best to handle this diplomatically? There is quite a bit of history with SIL (Lobster Boy for those who remember my previous threads), but things are on a reasonably even keel at present and I currently have a good relationship with DD, which I don't want to upset. She says that there is no rush to decide how best to invest the money, it is important to get it right.

Oh, and start cutting her calls short, too. Have to be somewhere. Don't be rude, just busy. Doctor's appointment, dentist, hairdresser, etc. Now lockdown is easing, it's easier to fake this. (Tbh, I am in Australia - I don't know what's open, but you can start opening up plans, I'm sure....). Maybe tell her you'll call her back, but don't.

I agree with @Sssloou about not taking Dd2 along on a visit. I would keep them compartmentalised. Hard as it is, I don't think that would help. What would help is Dd1 and LB behaving differently and you can't make that happen. But you can keep your other daughters out of the firing line. I also wouldn't go if you don't feel up to it. And I would certainly not book it around any significant dates. Protect yourself here.

Put it in premium bonds for them would be my suggestion

I wouldnt take DD2 anywhere near DD1

Siblings are not obliged to like each other. I don't like my brother.

And a new baby is not a new start or a way to bring everyone together and thinking that way, even wishfully, is just pointless self flagellation.

DD1 does not think like you and never will, she does not want to play happy extended families with you and her siblings.

It seems to me you are spending all your emotional energy on something that will never happen.

I think you are being too nice *
@ ChopinandChampagne*

You really are living the Michelle Obama
"When they go low, we go high." philosophy. Which is really admirable.

Your DD1 may be " indoctrinated " by LobsterBoy but she must have lost all the empathy and kindness she encountered with you OP, her dad and siblings.
She knows what they are.

I'm sorry but she comes across as crass, thoughtless, selfish and grabby.

You're only ever going to get a few crumbs thrown at you to keep you sweet, them taken back when you don't dance to their tune.
If the scales were ever to fall from her eyes and she came back to you and her siblings I'd welcome her back with open arms but right now she and her behaviour is the cause of such hurt and heartache.

Personally I'd step away.

I have to say, I have concerns about DD1.. I think I am listening to (DD3?) who has pointed out that she was vegan vegan with previous boyfriend. She is prone to extreme shifts in temperament and “borrows” personalities. Going from being vegan to being able to murder and eat a quail that she has raised and being a puppy farmer for her own financial benefit is more than a normal shift in moral boundaries. It’s a lack of actual ideation of self in the first place (or this would simply not be possible!)

I am terrible for posting before I’m finished!

I don’t think you can blame SIL. I think they feed each other’s neuroses. I would put them both in similar PD baskets. I’m sorry to say this, because I know that this is very hard to read.

Thanks everyone for your replies and support.

I am afraid that I have messed up big time and that it has all escalated. I had a missed call from DD1 and then a message to say that she had feared a miscarriage a couple of days earlier. I called back and we chatted, she had been very busy, a lot to do with her course, the DGDs etc, was very tired. She was having a couple of days off. I expressed my concern, said take care of yourself etc, your health is the most important thing. I also said how I was still struggling a lot without DH, referred for bereavement therapy, hard to see the joy in life etc. And she seemed sympathetic and said, meaning well, that the new life is joy ie DGC3. And I said, stupidly, that I don't suppose I will see much of DGC3 anyway, that I was afraid to form too much of an attachment to the DGCs, as they might be taken away and I couldn't cope with more loss, that I didn't understand why she had concealed DGD1's birth from us, or her marriage. I said that if a couple wanted to get married privately, then I would understand it, but why would she have all of LB's family there and not tell us. And why move and not give us the address - it was not as though we would turn up on the doorstep and harass them. That it was like something from Jeremy Kyle and that ghosting was either cowardly or a form of emotional abuse. That she was my daughter, that I would always love her, but that the hurt still ran very deep.

So, she said she was upset and that I was causing her stress, for which I apologised, and then she hung up on me, and subsequently sent an emotional message about how we, ie me, DD2 and DD3, were emotionally abusive, utterly selfish, having this conversation when she was at risk. 'You have deliberately chosen your feelings above my health and pregnancy. That is selfish. In fact, that seems to me to be emotionally abusive...Despite this ideal which you all have of yourselves, actually you all have a complete inability to empathise with anyone else. Only your own feelings matter. Which is why you are all happy to paint me out as some villain because it suits your own narrative of yourselves being 'so hurt' and 'emotionally abused'. There are two sides to every story. I'm not going into any of this rubbish again. I've wasted too much of my emotional and physical energy on it in the past,...It's unfair and unfounded. I can't even begin to count the amount of 'water under the bridge's there has been. You think it's only you who are entitled to have feelings. It's absolutely horrible every time this gets dragged up when both LB and I have put in so much and forgiven so much for the sake of moving forward. I'm absolutely sick to the back teeth of it. And once again, I don't know why I'm spending my physical and emotional energy on this. It's detrimental to my health.

So, I discussed this with my therapist, who said that she thought my language had been a bit harsh, but that I needed to stand my ground. And I sent a message along the lines which we discussed, saying that I was sorry that she was upset, that I had not intended the conversation to take the turn which it had, but there was still hurt and bottled up feelings, that she must put her health first, that I knew that she was trying to comfort me by talking about new life, but that it was triggering that DH had not been able to share more time with DGD1, and that I was very hurt that they had not wanted me there on her birthday, that her DGPs had always come round on her birthday and that it would not occur to me to exclude them or not regard them as family.

I also said that of course there were two sides to every story and that I respected her feelings, as I hoped she would respect mine, that I was not in a good place, devastated without DH, diagnosed with clinical depression, also can't cope with more loss or emotional upset, that she was my daughter, that I would always love her, and wished for nothing but good things for her and her family.

To which I received another angry message saying it was ridiculous that I was upset about DGD1's birthday, that they just wanted it to be the four of them, especially as I had suggested it. And, it is true, I did say that it was fine if they wanted to be alone - but I was being polite, fully expecting them to say that of course I must come, that I would be welcome. 'I don't know why you couldn't just be happy to come and see us and spend time with us, It's like you are purposefully choosing to create a drama out of nothing. It's a real shame and to be honest just sours the whole potential visit.

So I called today, said it's not a good idea to send all these emotional messages. I asked her if she were ok, which she said she was. I said that's good, that's the most important thing. She said that it had being going on for so long that people remembered the hurt and not the detail and I agreed with her, said I wanted to move forward, that I thought that we were doing so, but it wasn't linear, that there were some bumps in the road, but that with love we would overcome them, that I loved her, but not mentally ok at present.

She said we were just going over old ground and nothing got resolved. I said that I thought that the problem was that we never spent any time together. Apart from visiting DH at the hospital when he was dying, we had not spent any time together as mother and daughter for literally years, which is why I had suggested the spa trip. That she was my daughter, that I loved her, that I wanted to reconnect with her. She seemed to be amenable this and also to the trip - I said of course I would do if I were welcome. We were at the point of agreeing that I would book dates in June or July with a view to spending one day with the family and one day with her. Then she said she had to ask LB as he wasn't very happy that I had upset her. I said why, is he protecting you from your evil family and why do you need his permission. She wants to discuss it with him, so she is messaging me tomorrow.

So I have blown it all, just as it was getting better. My therapist thinks that we would have had to have the conversation sometime. DD2 says that I am in no fit state to have these conversations (she partly overheard) and to detach and relax, that DD1 has her own baggage in losing DH, which she does not envy, that I must live in the present and not be angry for DH as he would not have wanted it, have a bath and watch a film. I said I should be paying her as a therapist

You think it's only you who are entitled to have feelings

This is her and LB's belief - that only they are entitled ever to feel hurt, offended and let down - which they weaponize by projecting it onto others. That is her lashing out because you won't go along with their narrative of victimhood and rewriting history. I agree with your therapist. You are grieving the loss of your husband - your daughter's refusal to accept that is incredibly selfish. A feared miscarriage is of course upsetting but she does have her husband, and her in laws, there to support her. There is no call whatsoever to pick on you for not saying exactly what makes her feel best. You have to put yourself first!

Prepare yourself for a hostile message tomorrow, quite possibly sent or dictated by LB himself, saying they are done with you all or will not be in touch for a while. I would reply that maybe it is for the best - I know that's the last thing you'll want to say, but honestly, any attempt to placate them will let them know they can treat you as badly as they want. A reply that shows you may be coming round to the idea of no contact will frighten them that they no longer have you on the emotional - and financial - hook. Please think long term about this and don't panic. It's not you who has blown it.

Hi, I’ve been following your threads from the original one. I think you are handling this amazingly given everything you’ve been through and your current emotional state.

I do think it’s a good thing that you had this conversation. It’s been teetering for a while judging by a lot of your most recent posts. A good relationship is a two way thing so she can’t expect you not to share your feelings, even if she doesn’t like what you say.

A few years ago I had a fall out with my mother in law. I don’t think either of us were in the wrong but we argued and weren’t the same for a long time. In the last year (lockdown) our relationship has really changed and I think there’s been growth on both sides. My husband and I recently discussed this and I said that I think families who have fall outs but can make up again are stronger than others that don’t. I think one of the things that has changed is that we’re both more honest and transparent with each other. This is where your daughter fails. She may be honest on the surface but when it comes to the areas that need to be unpicked she is very defensive and oppositional. I think if she were to explore this it’s likely to be because there’s a lot of regret and guilt that she’s carrying and the only way for her to manage that is by moving swiftly onwards and forgetting the past. However it’s very difficult for you to move on when there’s not been any change- one of the issues were that you’ve been excluded and she continues to do this in one way or another.

I’m glad you stood your ground, however I would try to move away from messages if I were you. I imagine that it can be quite anxiety provoking when that message pings through and it also means that she is able to go away and plot with LB. I’m so sorry that you’re going through this. Do you think she would be as hurtful if she just spoke over the phone rather than text?

DD2 sounds ace.

Dd1's behaviour over hiding dgc 1, moving etc is indefendable, you still dont understand why.. it is not possible to not be hurt
She wont explain, & she wont accept she behaved unforgivably.
Honestly, go & take care of yourself.
Detatch, that's enough pain

It sounds like this was needed - it’s was a when not if - you needed to say your truth .... I hope that you can be satisfied with your release and not disappointed that there was no explanation, apology or acknowledgment of your pain from her, because she can’t do that because all of her actions were indefensible - so she has to delude herself to avoid the pain of truth and regret.

Certainly it is much better how it actually happened than if you were up there and they flounced off leaving you high and dry in a restaurant, on the street, abandoned you at an attraction etc leaving you alone in a hotel, emotionally devastated.

I think the fact that there were a series of follow up communications and discussions about your visit continues to show that there is still a connection. I feared that the shutters would come crashing down for good. Maybe they still will once LB gets involved (if she involves him) - I expect this will trigger a grifting episode.....something like “Can’t go to the spa but can I have the money instead” Answer “No.” with no explanation.

Maybe there are some positives to salvage from this blow up.

Maybe it has cleared the air. You both know where you stand and have heard each other regardless if anything is taken on board. There is some openness at least. I hope that you can feel some relief - for saying the unsaid. You have asked the Qs - why she married, had babies and ghosted you - what was her explanation?

Or did she just use anger and volatility to avoid answering and instead flip it back at you with the standard abuser tactic or DARVO (Deny, Attack, Reverse, Victim and Offender)?

She can’t unhear your words and they will stay with her and percolate even if she never admits that to you.

I don’t think that you have messed up. I think that this is a very very difficult situation that you have all endured for years which was/is emotionally debilitating enough in its self.

But you have the shock and grief of your DHs illness and death which is traumatic and devastating on a x1000 greater level.

Try not to blame yourself or apologise. Know that you have a right to know what you know, and a right to feel what you feel and express it. However right now you are very vulnerable and need to take extra care of yourself - maybe this was an act of self care - to offload something - it was never going to reach the conclusion that you desired but if it has relieved you a bit or drawn a line under something that will never be answered or understood then maybe you can detach from her so that you can focus on yourself and your other DDs who are close by keen to give you love attention and support 24/7.

I hope that you can find some capacity to let go of her for a while so that you can have a little comfort and peace.

@Mix56

DD2 sounds ace.

Dd1's behaviour over hiding dgc 1, moving etc is indefendable, you still dont understand why.. it is not possible to not be hurt
She wont explain, & she wont accept she behaved unforgivably.
Honestly, go & take care of yourself.
Detatch, that's enough pain

Said much more succinctly than me.

I agree also with @Skiptheheartsandflowers and @Lockdowntherabbithole.

Don’t text - verbal only to sense the mood and to be clear who you are communicating with.

Your DD1 is likely under huge stress pregnant, with two toddlers under 3, working full time, studying, no doubt unsupported doing everything at home and tip toeing around LB, processing the loss of her DF and subconsciously dealing with regrets. She is likely at the end of her tether - from all of these choices she and he have made. The risk here is that she displaces all of this anger and rage onto you rather than where it should be on LB. Don’t let that happen. Step back so that you don’t get in their way.

Well done @ChopinandChampagne that must have been so incredibly hard for you, but as your therapist said, it had to come out sometime. You couldn’t carry on just pussyfooting around the situation and be taken for a cross between a doormat and a cash machine.

I do think dd will process this over time, what you said she needed to heat, and in her current situation she couldn’t react any other way in the moment, but the facts are undeniable and hopefully she will process them so your relationship will be able to move on. She says it’s going over old ground, but it’s ground she’s never been willing to tend, if she only acknowledged that she’d hurt you it would be easier to forgive.

The most important thing you said is putting into her consciousness the idea of her having to ask permission. Sending hugs 💐

I think you can just apply for birth certificate copies off the internet without needing ID. I know because I needed to replace my DCs.

I think you need to send one more text... “I think we need to stop texting each other at the moment and stick with phone calls only. Too much “tone” can be read into texts when non may be intended. Calls leave less room for interpretation.”

If she brings up your past cruelty, throw that gulag book back in her face. That was terribly insensitive and unkind. The biggest WTAF we can think of.

You did nothing wrong, you said what needed to be said.

DD1 reply is typical, ie it doesn't matter what I did in the past, you are not allowed to upset me, how very dare you!

I wouldn’t have apologised for upsetting her. She has caused all the grief and yet you are the one apologising? You are the one who is emotionally abusive??

She has all the traits of a narc. I really wish you well but I really think you need to see your daughter for who she is rather than what you want her to be.

LB may well be her soulmate and the kind of man she has always wanted, unpalatable as that might sound.

A simply philosophy I have is to never, ever apologise for saying what needs to be said

@Sssloou exactly, all of what you said. She needs to own her choices. Having a lazy ass husband and lots of children in quick succession whilst working and studying is never going to be easy. Amused by her expectation of the in-laws providing childcare. Why can’t their own father looked after the DGD?!

They both found sound very narcissist and hard work

Has the miscarriage even been confirmed or is this another ploy? I’m sorry, but I’m dubious about virtually everything also. Agree that your DD1 behaves as either a Narc or BPD. Also while I am sad for you that you feel guilty for “stressing her out”, I think you have been “trained” to feel this way by DD1 for expressing yourself and having genuine opinions or strong feelings about anything. I imagine that she was always a strong, explosive kind of person, who slammed doors and was rather entitled compared to the other two Dds.

As Wherearemymarbles says ".... I wouldn't have apologised for upsetting her. She has caused all the grief yet you are the one apologising ? .....I really think you need to see your daughter for who she is rather than what you want her to be...."

You are bending over backwards and yet the scales may never fall from her eyes.
Though I hope they will.
You have smoothed things over for her sake.
Would that she has the same concern for her grieving mother.
Personally I would walk away, easy for me to say I know.
Too much drama over which you have no control.
You may never have a relationship with your gc anyway. LB will probably see to that.
Concentrate on your two other beautiful daughters.
Take care of yourself. I have seen stress make people very ill.

It’s good you pushed back a bit as you have been doing all the giving and DD1/LB all the taking so far.

It’s going to be used against you as justification for their actions of course, but then anything you do would be.

I don’t think you’ve blown it at all. The relationship was never going to be fully restored as you - rightfully - have all these feelings of confusion and anger over what she did and she doesn’t want to acknowledge this behaviour of hers at all.

Sadly, it’s never going to be a straightforward relationship and at the moment I think you have to step back and concentrate on yourself and your grief and learning how to move forward with that before the relationship with DD1. Don’t be so harsh on yourself. x

You are so worried about damaging relationships that you're not allowed to be honest.
I think it's good to say what's hurting you obviously you need to plan the conversation so you're using words you're happy with.
But you can't have this fake relationship forever. It'll eat you up. And tbh I don't completely agree with your therapist. You're allowed all these feelings.

I think you need to do what's best for you at the moment, if that's backing off completely or just talking about shopping then that's fine.

You're allowed to be hurt, and make choices about your future. They don't get to run your life. It's feeling like you're their puppet.

I'm angry on your behalf.

I think we’re all very protective of you @ChopinandChampagne! I guess we feel that your DD is behaving like an EA boyfriend or husband would.

I agree, Dd1 is exceptionally good as out maneuvering you in conversations. & has manipulated the conversation so that instead of replying & explaining or even sympathising with your grief she makes it a counter attack, plus the "We have had this conversation," " Water under the bridge" remarks, brushing your hurt under aside.
Whether she has learned this technique from LB or not, it is there, & she appears to have become impenetrable to rational relationships
& yes, I would probably have asked why LB wasn't helping with DC, if she wanted another baby so soon, she should have anticipated the work it would involve.& the other GP are not there to provide free child care, they have raised their own DC, & now its their turn, their choices, particularly having DC so close together, when they are under school age , & she can't afford nursery.
What does LB actually do all day?