What happened to men?

[AnotherStupidQuestion]

There have been a few threads along this line recently. I don't have anything new to add really; I'm just surprised that there are so many crap men about.

I've been single for a decade. In that time, I dated a bit and had a few flings but nothing that constituted a relationship.

Even men who seem decent on the surface are hiding some deeply unattractive qualities just beneath the surface.

It's got to the point where, even on the Tell me about your lovely man threads on here, my cynical voice is asking, "But what do you not know about?"; "What's he keeping from you?; "What are you tolerating that I wouldn't?"

I know the answer is patriarchy and misogyny but I wonder how we, as a species, have become so dysfunctional that so many relationships are poor; so many women are prepared to put up with so much shit and so many men are just appalling? Yet so many seem to also want a relationship.

I don't hate men. I have a son and some very close male friends I have good relationships with. But i have given up completely on ever having a mutually respectful, loving relationship now.

Mens as friends, family, colleagues are great. Men in a relationship? Just no.

I just wondered how other people feel.

Threads like this tend to be an echo chamber if posted on a Relationships board, where most people visit when having problems.

There are good men and bad men. Like with women. Plenty of women spend their entire lives not meeting many crap men, or certainly not thinking this way. Yes, some of it may be luck. But I think a large part results from how you view the world. I've been sexually assaulted, had a sexist boss at work and divorced and still don't think men are crap. These 3 men were crap but it never even occurred to me to think that it meant most men are. And I've dated loads of lovely men, my current partner is fab, befriended loads of lovely men, and work with lovely men and have excelled in my career in a male dominated industry. But I also have a great relationship with my dad. He was very empowering and present in my life. Maybe this is a factor - the relationship a woman has with her father?

I like men, and learn a lot from their different perspective to mine. And maybe that comes across when I date on OLD? I have often had compliments on how positive and un-jaded I seem for my 30s and being divorced. I do wonder if crap men can pick up on negative energy or distrust and are attracted to women who've been hurt/traumatised by men in the past. Because they think there's a vulnerability there that can be exploited. Within my social circle it seems to be the women who dislike men the most that date the worst ones, almost like a self fulfilling prophecy, and is then a vicious cycle. I've never understood it myself.

But there's plenty of great men out there. Not on this board because that isn't its purpose but there's good dads, husbands, bfs, friends and colleagues/bosses - and I wish there were more stories about them made public. I really hope OP, you can find a good one to make you realise they do exist.

For each generation it gets harder in many ways. The need to survive becomes ever more competetive on this planet.

Although with the younger generation there are certain safety nets for single women, which are essential, I feel it has contributed to taking the responsibility off many younger men. Not just financially but emotionally. Men seem more childlike.

They are not necessarily viewed as the provider anymore. A play culture seems to have arisen in younger men who play video games, watch porn and go to gym to buff themselves up for whatever self entitled sex life they persue.

In my opinion younger people do not want to share.
Money and wealth are protected. There is a culture of mistrust that has built up in society, through our capitalist ideals and that seeps into marriage and relationships.

An everyone for themselves attitude dominates over love.

Porn is normalised, governments don't care so long as the men are occupied and they make profits. The family units suffer.

There are too many reasons and variables why men are changing but I agree, if I was young I would baulk at the variety that is on offer.

I don't think things will get better until it becomes economically beneficial to be in a partnership for many young people.
Maybe then we may start seeing longevity to relationships.

Of course there is good and bad in both men and women. The problem with many men, and it's not all men but it's too fucking many, is that they won't leave women the fuck alone. From hassling them in the street for a smile, dick pics online, right up to sexual assault and even rape. If men don't want loving relationships, leave us the fuck alone.

I agree OP. To me the problem is porn.

Very generalised post plenty of people have happy relationships and I know of men who have been shit on by women as well.
The older people get though often the more baggage they may have or bad experiences and may of not moved on from them.
Been with my dh over 20 years we argue , we got on , but most of all we talk. We have had tough times and sometimes really had to
Work at our relationship , other times its easy. But all in all he is a good man and there are many out there and also some arseholes.
I think poster who implied its only complicit wifes who have a good relationship is talking crap , of my friends who have long term relationships , its more often than not the women that wear the trousers so to speak or they are very evenly matched.
I was a sahm for a bit because thats what I wanted and dh supported me, it didn't mean I did all housework , cooking etc we still shared and do now. ( kids are older so they chip in - both teenage boys( young men)
Sometimes peoples expectations can be high as they don't just want a nice man , they want him to have. Good job , own house etc etc so has to tick a lot of boxes other than being just a decent bloke

Donewithitalltodayandchristmas

‘I know of men who have been shit on by women as well.’

Sure , we all do but do you know any industry where men are demeaned and degraded for women’s sexual kicks or where sexual exploitation. Is such a huge issue in they way the porn industry does ?
For you know of any country where women are taping and killing men in anywhere close to the same numbers that men are killing and raping women ?
Do you know of any country where women commonly leave their children with their fathers in the numbers men Do and refuse to pay child support .... ?
anywhere where married women are using sex workers and ‘cam boys ‘ behind their husbands backs in numbers even close to what men are doing . ?
The point is not that some women can not be shitty , it’s that the number of men doing horrible or disgusting acts against women FAR outweighs anything close to what woman as a group
When you can start finding some stats to show that women are treating men ANYWHERE near as terribly killing raping and leaving them to care for children alone in the NUMBERS that men do then cries of not all men really mean nothing

They are not necessarily viewed as the provider anymore. A play culture seems to have arisen in younger men who play video games, watch porn and go to gym to buff themselves up for whatever self entitled sex life they persue

Yes. But this is also very true of older men. I think human beings don't do well with (perceived) abundance of choice.

I know of grown men who moan they can't meet "the one". Yet they're on several dating sites whilst also sliding into women's inboxes on Facebook. The whole chocolate box mentality. They never stop.

They're a shit example to younger men. Online misogyny is disgusting - Facebook again as an example, it's not young men on there disrespecting women. Young people do not frequent Facebook.

That's a lot for any women to even attempt to counteract. Not that it's a woman's job.

@AnotherStupidQuestion

I've only dated two men I believed when they said they didn't use porn.

It was obvious from the sex they wanted and the way they interacted with me during sex that that was the case.

Porn makes men very disconnected during sex. They do it to you rather than with you.

And even men who are quite sweet at every other time behave quite differently when sex is concerned. Put bluntly, t beat it's boring and at worst it's horrible.

I don't want to 'lie back and think of England'. I want sex to be fun. I dont want to be the passive recipient of someone's cock! But unless you're happy to be flipped around at their will, have no communication, and have their hands put around your throat, sex seems to he a non starter.

Oh and foreplay that involves him sticking a few fingers inside you, only touching you for his pleasure and not yours...

Tbh, inhad better sex when inwas in my late teens and early twenties with inexperienced men than I do now. At least we were doing it together!

Exactly, exactly this.

Come off OD and just get on with your life.

I don't do online dating.

These are men I've met in the real world and not just men I've dated either.

I get very confused with these threads, on others the consensus seems to be gender doesn’t exist (god forbid someone writes about ‘gender disappointment’), then on threads like these men are suddenly the enemy, ‘toxic’, and specifically not as ‘good’ as women. Men and women are suddenly grouped together and sweeping generalisations made over the groups as a whole?

Wishing are you sure? On Mumsnet you'd be hard pushed not to find someone who doesn't know the difference between sex and gender.

And Mac, sorry then. But your comments on women respecting themselves and alcohol were tacked onto a posted you'd quoted where a PP spoke about rape so I assumed you were speaking about that.

@Onthedunes

For each generation it gets harder in many ways. The need to survive becomes ever more competetive on this planet.

Although with the younger generation there are certain safety nets for single women, which are essential, I feel it has contributed to taking the responsibility off many younger men. Not just financially but emotionally. Men seem more childlike.

They are not necessarily viewed as the provider anymore. A play culture seems to have arisen in younger men who play video games, watch porn and go to gym to buff themselves up for whatever self entitled sex life they persue.

In my opinion younger people do not want to share.
Money and wealth are protected. There is a culture of mistrust that has built up in society, through our capitalist ideals and that seeps into marriage and relationships.

An everyone for themselves attitude dominates over love.

Porn is normalised, governments don't care so long as the men are occupied and they make profits. The family units suffer.

There are too many reasons and variables why men are changing but I agree, if I was young I would baulk at the variety that is on offer.

I don't think things will get better until it becomes economically beneficial to be in a partnership for many young people.
Maybe then we may start seeing longevity to relationships.

I’ve seen the term “spunk wallet” used on here many times by women who want a baby and have zero interest in having a long term relationship with that man.

I’ve heard it at work from women they financially they are miles better off now divorced and getting child maintenance and tax credits every month.

My ex is financially better off no doubt about it.

So what purpose is a man for?

Playing Disney Dad at a weekend and sending over that child maintenance standing order every week.

@goldielockdown2 what is the difference between sex and gender, in your opinion?

I think the emphasis is on sex rather than the other parts of a relationship. There’s so much information out there (including porn although this should really be called misinformation) focused solely on sex

There’s also focus on equality which has been interpreted in a solely financial sense. So as women are now a greater part of the workforce they should be contributing equally financially. But men are not contributing equally in terms of parenting, housework and emotional labour.

Both of these things need to change.
Also being single needs to be seen as an equally valid way of life.

Maca07166

‘ I’ve seen the term “spunk wallet” used on here many times by women who want a baby and have zero interest in having a long term relationship with that man.

I’ve heard it at work from women they financially they are miles better off now divorced and getting child maintenance and tax credits every month.

My ex is financially better off no doubt about it.

So what purpose is a man for?

Playing Disney Dad at a weekend and sending over that child maintenance standing order every week’

Even IF this was true and even IF a significant amount of women WERE using this term to describe men ( never heard even one woman use this phrase myself ) or thinking about men this way how would this even come close to the damage men do to women
The murder rates committed by men against women
The rape rates
The abuses and exploitation of women by the pirn industry . An industry PRIMARILY used by men. ‘Made for men by men
Until men are prepared to start afdressing these issues they really don’t have ground to stand on complaining that women may want speak or a wallet
Men are afraid of women laughing at them , women are afraid of men killing them !

Wishing not my opinion, but the facts are that gender is a social construct
and biological sex is biological sex.
As far as gender goes, anyone can act or dress or prefer what they want without it meaning they must 'really' be the opposite sex.

In reference to biological sex, it's undeniable that there are male crimes, which are escalations of male behaviour. Patriarchy exists and so does toxic masculinity. We all suffer it's damage, including men.

@electronVolt

Wow. Well, we managed 6 posts.

WhATaBOuT teH mENz

Hahaha!!! Yep

Ffs

Yeah I've never heard of the term 'spunk wallet' before either and it doesn't really sound like something any woman I know would ever say.

Again I think a woman wanting a child but no relationship whatsoever with the father is an exception rather than something which is quite commonplace. Single women choosing to do it alone also tend to use sperm donors and don't want financial involvement with the bio father.
No woman wants a 'Disney dad' in their child's lives, either. They want proper parenting for their children. Also child maintenance isn't for women, it's for children. We get no benefit from child maintenance.

@goldielockdown2 I wouldn’t say those are ‘facts’

@goldielockdown2

Yeah I've never heard of the term 'spunk wallet' before either and it doesn't really sound like something any woman I know would ever say.

Again I think a woman wanting a child but no relationship whatsoever with the father is an exception rather than something which is quite commonplace. Single women choosing to do it alone also tend to use sperm donors and don't want financial involvement with the bio father.
No woman wants a 'Disney dad' in their child's lives, either. They want proper parenting for their children. Also child maintenance isn't for women, it's for children. We get no benefit from child maintenance.

Are you really telling me every woman has a separate account for child maintenance that is purely for the children?

Or is it just factored into their yearly income?

I think it’s the latter sorry.

I can’t stand the term Disney dad either I first heard it 4 years ago from a friend who recently separated and he said he felt like he was there on a weekend purely to have as much fun with the kids as possible and make them happy for the missed time during the week.

I’m sure most dads feel like that, I sure as hell do most of the time, it’s not uncommon for me on a day that I have my kids to pick them up and take them out in normal times to a theme park/zoo/Smyths etc because I want to see them happy and know they are having a good time with me because apart from school pick ups my time with them is limited in the week.

Honestly being a part time dad is awful it feels shit and the only way I can stop the guilt of not being there for them day to day is to have a shit load of fun with them when I see them.

Wishing if you're confused about gender and biology then perhaps start a thread over on the Feminism board? HTH

Yes it would be interesting to find any community where the term ‘ spunk wallet’ is used hmmmmm in even the ration 1:100000 to the terms slut whore , etc and the ways in which women are commodified adults bodies who’s sole purpose is to fulfil men’s sexual desires
It’s just incredible that some men can’t see the millions of ways in which women are consistently treated as if their sole purpose is their bodies , youth and appearance for men’s pleasure yet the minute they hear one term where men might be used in any way suddenly wow ... how bad they have it

Never heard that term....

However. I can easily imagine a woman saying she is much better iff now divorced and the DH paying maintenance than she was when she married. And to somehow gloat about it.
That’s what happens when you take people for granted for many years and they get free.

It doesn’t even mean that said man is paying over the odds. Just that, as seen on many threads in here, some relationships are very imbalanced financially. And some men are buying for themselves first before family etc.... So being able to do what you want with no money wo any further constrains means feeling richer.

FWIW I would also be better off financially divorced than with H. Nothing to do with me taking everything away from him. But plenty to do with the fact he is earning well enough that I would be entitled to a decent maintenance. And still also be entitled to tax credits due my own low income.

No, I've never heard of a separate bank account for child maintenance, Mac. The child maintenance I receive goes into one of my current accounts where bills come out from etc. I don't see why there would be an expectation of a separate account? As you will know, children are expensive and there are daily expenses, food, clothing, activities, extras like birthday party invites and presents to accommodate for, water, rent, other utilities, the list goes on....to take into account. Women don't gleefully snatch their own children's maintenance and get their nails done like many misogynists will claim.

Your posts are interesting, Mac.
Sexual violence as the norm? But I've seen women claim to like anal and now I'm sooooo confused!
Rape culture in institutions? So I'll tell my DDs to respect themselves and not get too drunk!
And now we have the full house. Claiming that women only want men for their 'spunk' and money. It's so hilarious.

@Maca07166 but it’s normal that said money is out together in the family income!

That’s because that money is used to pay rent, buy food, heat the house, have some light, pay for the petrol to take them to school and activities etc etc etc

It’s not money just used to buy clothes and activities that are ONLY for the dcs or where you can easily say ‘half of that is for the dcs’

What you are implying though is that women who receive maintenance are only spending it on themselves. Which tbh is an insult to ANY RP (not just women). Because it assumes that said parent will always put themselves before their dcs.
Or maybe your comment is only a reflection of how you feel and what you see other men doing. Aka behaving in the exact way some many women are fed up with (and the reason why they say they wouldn't want to be in a relationship with a man again!)