What happened to men?

[AnotherStupidQuestion]

There have been a few threads along this line recently. I don't have anything new to add really; I'm just surprised that there are so many crap men about.

I've been single for a decade. In that time, I dated a bit and had a few flings but nothing that constituted a relationship.

Even men who seem decent on the surface are hiding some deeply unattractive qualities just beneath the surface.

It's got to the point where, even on the Tell me about your lovely man threads on here, my cynical voice is asking, "But what do you not know about?"; "What's he keeping from you?; "What are you tolerating that I wouldn't?"

I know the answer is patriarchy and misogyny but I wonder how we, as a species, have become so dysfunctional that so many relationships are poor; so many women are prepared to put up with so much shit and so many men are just appalling? Yet so many seem to also want a relationship.

I don't hate men. I have a son and some very close male friends I have good relationships with. But i have given up completely on ever having a mutually respectful, loving relationship now.

Mens as friends, family, colleagues are great. Men in a relationship? Just no.

I just wondered how other people feel.

@goldielockdown2

I don't want to give away my age but from the get-go I would fully expect to be throttled during sex. If I were to date, I fully expect one of the first opening questions to be about anal sex. I didn't always know I could challenge this attitude, or not go along with it. I didn't know better (or different). I just don't engage in any of it now as it disgusts me. I worry for my young DD's future, but also my own if I ever wanted to look for a new partner.

Yeah that’s horrible I don’t get wanting to choke the woman your having sex with.

I’ve heard it from colleagues, it’s not something I’ve ever thought about wanting to do myself.

It’s interesting yet sad hearing this from the other genders side.

I blame the parents. My dad would be in his 70’s now had he lived, his mum didn’t assume he would marry so she taught him to cook, clean etc. He was a wonderful father who shared all home and childcare equally with my mum.

All my friends who have sons are determined not to baby them into adulthood and as a result hope they will become wonderful, equal partners in their relationships.

Mac that's what I tend to think re anal. Others will have different opinions though. It's something I've seen massively debated on here before

@goldielockdown2

Mac that's what I tend to think re anal. Others will have different opinions though. It's something I've seen massively debated on here before

Yeah I’ve seen the debates it never usually ends one sided which is also confusing seeing women say they prefer it over piv.

I don’t get women 😂

Mac I think that the women (actual women, not men claiming to be women as sometimes happens for their own trolly purposes in topics like this), who truthfully mean that without any subconscious outside influence, are in a very small minority.

@Maca07166 women prefer anal in your experience? Seems odd to me. Most of my female friends won’t go there at all! And yeah we tell each other too much 😂

[quote EmmeG]@Maca07166 women prefer anal in your experience? Seems odd to me. Most of my female friends won’t go there at all! And yeah we tell each other too much 😂[/quote]
You mis read me sorry.

I said that when these debates come up on mumsnet I’ve seen that women post they prefer anal over piv.

I’ve never met a woman that prefers it and to be really honest it’s not something I like doing either. I’ve never understood why a man would want a bum instead of a vagina but I appreciate everyone is different.

I sort of get that but I don’t if that makes sense is it like a woman being talked into doing anal not particularly liking it but doing it because she feels it’s normal?

I think that's a lot of it.

There have been articles in magazines read by teens and young women about how to prevent anal sex from causing you physical harm/damage.
It's been promoted as safe because you can't get pregnant from it.

It's been completely normalised. I tried it once. It did nothing for men and reduced the man to a grunting pig. Nothing has ever put me off anyone sp quickly!

Women who won't do anal are now seen as uptight, boring and prudish.

Likewise those of us who don't want to be strangled or just lie/sit there while a man cums on our face 🙄

Did nothing for me! He seemed to quite enjoy it.

*I’ve never understood why a man would want a bum instead of a vagina but I appreciate everyone

is different. It's tighter, forbidden and you can't get pregnant. That's why.

@Wearywithteens

Maca07166 - it is a genuine worry. She is stunning and thankfully she has self worth so she’s not naive about ‘friendly’ men who suddenly turn nasty when she doesn’t reciprocate but it’s not just grim catcalling in the street. What about those middle class lads from Warwick Uni who thought nothing of trash talking their female colleagues and casually talking about rape? You’d assume they were bright and from households that valued education. But still scum and sleezey. My female colleague went to Warwick and said the rape culture was so evident she wouldn’t go into her student kitchen alone - extrapolate that to all the other unis...scary.

My dds have been brought up around male role models that are brilliant - gentlemen who respect women and who take pride in their achievements. The reality of the attitudes of other men out there is very frightening to them.

Yeah the university stuff was rather sinister I found.

All I can tell my daughters is to respect themselves? And to try and not let the influence of alcohol cloud their judgement.

@AnotherStupidQuestion

*I’ve never understood why a man would want a bum instead of a vagina but I appreciate everyone

is different. It's tighter, forbidden and you can't get pregnant. That's why.

Probably also an element of control as well.

My ex suggested it to me so we did it a few times in our 13 years but she could tell I wasn’t enjoying it so much so only a handful of times we did that.

She suggested it as I was more inexperienced than her when we met so that’s fine if she suggests it? Again reading this thread has somewhat confused me on if a woman suggests it it’s fine but now also is it because she thinks the man wants it?

I got through a lot of shit men before meeting a good one, and he IS good. What he isn't though is PERFECT - no man is and, more importantly, no WOMAN is either!!

Of course there are huge issues to be dealt with with regards to equality, sexism, spousal abuse, sexual abuse etc BUT I have so many friends who are honestly single because they have literally insane expectations!

I have so many single friends who are sooooooo picky! and absolutely insist that they are looking for their 'perfect' man. List of requirements and everything! What they literally never seem to think about though is what THEY would offer. They speak as if it's a given that they deserve the moon and it drives me CRAZY!

Their relationship ideals seem to be based on shit rom com plots rather than the realities of a relationship. I've seen them throw away lovely men because of the stupidest things (a tucked in Rugby shirt, a snorty laugh, liking rock music & my absolute favourite - not getting butterflies when they see them!). It's the behaviour of 14 year old girls, at a push!

One made a comment that they would 'never have gone near' my DH - why? He's under 6' and he's balding. It doesn't matter that he's kind, funny, a great Dad, incredible with my family, giving and loving or anything else. And, utterly unsurprisingly, this is from a woman who sleeps with her dog & lives in combats, walking boots & wouldn't dream of dressing up for anything or anyone - there is NOTHING wrong with any of those things, she is wonderful and beautiful as she is, BUT how can she not see that expecting 'Tom Hardy with long hair' to swan through her & 'make her foot pop' when he kisses her?!

It's so sad that they may end up never having their own little family but they've turned down the chances so often I can't even sympathise any more.

Of course there are shit men out there, absolute twats, and as I said, I got through my fair share of them but the notion that there aren't any good ones out there is just bullshit.

I'd rather have a relationship like my Nan & Grandad's, not perfect (none are) but loving, committed and with the longevity of a whole, wonderful life together. I don't 'put up' with any shitty behaviour, I haven't lowered myself, settled etc but I want to be old, sitting on a bench with my lovely, a bit short and balding man. That's a relationship, not butterflies, presents & popping fucking feet!!!

BUT how can she not see that expecting 'Tom Hardy with long hair' to swan through her door & 'make her foot pop' when he kisses her?!

...is just not going to happen (that should have said).

Men don't want long term relationships.

If you want a partner, become a lesbian.

Again reading this thread has somewhat confused me on if a woman suggests it it’s fine but now also is it because she thinks the man wants it?

Personally, i can't see what a woman would get out of it. There's no way of knowing whether she, or any woman, was suggesting it because they genuinely like it or because they feel they ought to.

Maybe she got off on the fact she was more experienced than you (so still control).

The bottom line is, we are all different and have different preferences. For example, I love giving bjs. I have a friend who has never even tried and the thought disgusts her. To me, they're far more intimate than piv sex.

But the point is, women should felt that they can say no to something they dont want to do. And often we don't. Or feel we can't because we fear the reaction. Or we do and its ignored. Or we're made to feel inadequate. Or we're coerced into it.

I personally couldn't enjoy something if a man wasn't into it but many men don't seem to have the same concern.

All I can tell my daughters is to respect themselves and not let the influence of alcohol cloud their judgement

Seriously?! In the context of rape? Rapists should just stop raping.

@Givemeabreak88

Well men can’t be that bad as women always seem to be desperate to be in a relationship, I’ve been single for 4 years and I’m seen as “odd” and “strange” I know it seems common on MN for women to be single for 20 years but I don’t know any women irl like that, most are desperate for relationships

Agree with you 100%. It's part of the reason I often feel frustrated by these types of threads. Men with bad behaviour have no problem getting into (and often staying in) relationships. If anything, they generally seem to succeed better at doing this than good men. Women are just not discerning enough and there's therefore little pressure on the majority of these men to change their behaviours (or not start bad behaviours in the first place).

We can talk about patriarchy (I don't deny it exists) and have a 'woe is me' attitude, but at the end of the day there are two people in a relationship and women are grown ups who put up with this behaviour and sometimes even encourage it. Look at the numbers of women defending porn for example. Despite it being horribly objectifying of women, misogynistic, exploitative, and has been the big reason driving men to have unrealistic and damaging expectations of women, and also destroyed many relationships and families. Then there's wide availability of "no strings attached" sex. Basically, men can get everything they want from women without having to treat them with respect or commitment.

I've been living in the same 'patriarchal' society as all these other women. However I've been single for much longer than I've been in relationships despite a lot of interest from men because I simply refuse to be with bad men who don't respect me as a woman. And I'm much happier for it. If more women did this, aside from drastically cutting down bad treatment they would otherwise experience, many more men would have to change their behaviours for the better in order to even have a relationship, get married, have kids etc. Men can do absolutely NONE of these things without women cooperating. It's so sad to see women in this day and age, where we've never had greater freedom, still insist on willfully giving their power away to men.

@goldielockdown2

All I can tell my daughters is to respect themselves and not let the influence of alcohol cloud their judgement

Seriously?! In the context of rape? Rapists should just stop raping.

For goodness sake comments like this are ridiculous. Of course no one should be exhibiting any evil behaviours but we're on planet Earth aren't we, and have to live with the reality that there are evil people out there.

No one keeps their front door or car unlocked because "thieves should stop stealing". Whatever is precious to you, you naturally protect as best you can because the potential consequences for YOU are horrible. That's normal basic behaviour.

Mixmatch. I feel your frustration! My own view is that so-called “sexual liberation”, including the pill, benefitted men more than women. Perversions are presented as the much more innocuous-sounding “kinks” etc.

However, women do want men. Their sex instincts, their Romantic instincts, and possibly “nesting” instincts remain - even if it’s slim pickings out there.

If I had a teenage DD I would feel the (sad) need to educate her on this. To maintain her sexual physical respect. But there will be many other young women with no such guidance out there and their sexuality will be completely debased and messed with, IMO.

self-respect

If I ever became single there is no way I'd kill myself trying to get into another relationship with a man. Not a chance.

I'm almost 40 and the vast, vast majority of men I've met would cheat on their wives/partners given half the chance.

There's always a plea of 'not my dad, son, brother' etc etc but the fact remains is the majority of men I. E dad's, sons, brothers, are these shit head men.

Case in point is BIL, who I thought was decent, brought a woman on holiday with us, who turns out to be the 'girlfriend' of him and SIL! The 3 of them were having 3 somes all week!

I think you also need to realise someones shit is another person's gold.
Its also about how individuals react to each other and what they bring out in each other..
I'm sure there are a lot of shit men out there but tbh some men who are labelled as shit by some women go on to be wonderful partners to other women... theres no hard and fast standard.
Two of my husbands exes actually warned me about him (no I wasn't the other woman but we all had the same wider friendship circle) ... tried to say he would do this that and the other... but I think the problem was those relationships just weren't right. They said he was some kind of emotionally unavailable player who was afraid of commitment.... but we've been married ten years now and we have two children and I've never felt closer to anyone...
Different people just create a different dynamic with each other. Some of the qualities in my husband that I love, his exes hated... he's introverted and so am I... we have similar tastes and outlooks on things...
So whilst there are some cheating bellends who are just rotten out there... sometimes its not a problem with men in general but just that unluckily you haven't found someone you click with and whose personality traits gel with yours in a healthy supportive way.
And similarly I have exes who I had a really painful time with who I know may still go on to be some other womans dream man

btw, I have a 17 year old son and he pulled an “ew” face the other day about what’s “out there” in terms of sex.