What happened to men?

[AnotherStupidQuestion]

There have been a few threads along this line recently. I don't have anything new to add really; I'm just surprised that there are so many crap men about.

I've been single for a decade. In that time, I dated a bit and had a few flings but nothing that constituted a relationship.

Even men who seem decent on the surface are hiding some deeply unattractive qualities just beneath the surface.

It's got to the point where, even on the Tell me about your lovely man threads on here, my cynical voice is asking, "But what do you not know about?"; "What's he keeping from you?; "What are you tolerating that I wouldn't?"

I know the answer is patriarchy and misogyny but I wonder how we, as a species, have become so dysfunctional that so many relationships are poor; so many women are prepared to put up with so much shit and so many men are just appalling? Yet so many seem to also want a relationship.

I don't hate men. I have a son and some very close male friends I have good relationships with. But i have given up completely on ever having a mutually respectful, loving relationship now.

Mens as friends, family, colleagues are great. Men in a relationship? Just no.

I just wondered how other people feel.

Jeez, I hope I'm self aware enough not to be like the majority of men mentioned on this thread.

I've been on MN years and realise that most of the women here experience the dregs (or is it actually a majority?) of my sex, it is thoroughly depressing and I can see why many women would choose to be single.

AnotherStupidQuestion - just because it's the right thing (or feels like it) doesn't make it 'fair'.

I'm not sure what you're referring to here. I haven't said anything is right or fair.

Family law is still grossly unfair in this supposed age of equality but that's ok right when it favours the woman?

Again, the subject of my thread wasn't family law. You need to ask the lawmakers why this is the case. I can tell you the answer though. Patriarchy.

A lot of women have a 'I want my cake and eat it attitude ' then wonder why men disengage / switch off.

Well give that doesn't explain me...

There will be some men out there as you describe but if you find them all like that in terms of relationships then............

it's you i'm afraid. Simply the laws of probability back up this fact.

@AnotherStupidQuestion

Oh, no I totally get your post and I apologise for going wildly off topic

Tbh, it helps to share ideas, thoughts and experiences. It's how we learn.

I would be interested in your thoughts though on why I, and so many other women, are experiencing such poor behaviour from men.

I'm 45. The last man I dated was 53. He took a great deal of pleasure in telling pelle inwas 10nyears younger than him (I wasn't) and he once bemoaned the fact women weren't interested in him. To me. His girlfriend.

It transpired that what he meant was the sort of women he wanted (hot 25 year olds) weren't interested in him.

I just wasn't good enough 🤷🏻‍♀️

I wish I could offer an insight but I’m a bit of an introvert (doesn’t mean I’m boring at sex quite the opposite just being a little shy at first often is isn’t what women want in my experience)

Do you go for the confident men?

@crestar

There will be some men out there as you describe but if you find them all like that in terms of relationships then............

it's you i'm afraid. Simply the laws of probability back up this fact.

It’s kinda like online dating, in my periods of being single and dabbling in online dating the one thing that stood out when I would dabble back in to online dating was a lot of the women that were on there years ago are still on there.

So to me it begs with the question of: what’s wrong with these women that have been on these dating sites for years are still looking for “Mr Right”?

it's youi'm afraid. Simply the laws of probability back up this fact.

Well, yes, i would concur. It most definitely is me because I won't myself into knots trying to make peace with appalling behaviour!

I wish I could offer an insight but I’m a bit of an introvert (doesn’t mean I’m boring at sex quite the opposite just being a little shy at first often is isn’t what women want in my experience)

Do you go for the confident men?

No, not especially.

I'd much rather have a man who was a little bit shy and who was loving and kind!

I think communication is the most important thing and i think a lot of men find that difficult because men are still often brought up to be stoic and nt talk about their feelings. That certainly seems to be an issue with men in their 50s.

I would agree that a lot of women feel a little insecure and uncertain of how to proceed when a man is sexually shy. But that all comes down to the same problem. The patriarchy tells us that men are strong, commanding and virile and women are uncertain when faced with men who aren't like that as much as the men probably feel a bit awkward about it too.

Tbh, i find confident and self assured men a bit off putting.

So to me it begs with the question of: what’s wrong with these women that have been on these dating sites for years are still looking for “Mr Right”?

I signed on to online dating at the end of last year.

The number of men I recognised from my first stint 9 years ago, along with the same profiles/pics was astounding!

I don't think online dating is a good measure generally.

I did it years ago but wouldn't touch it now. I think there are unrealistic expectations on both sides.

I stick to the real world!

@AnotherStupidQuestion

it's youi'm afraid. Simply the laws of probability back up this fact.

Well, yes, i would concur. It most definitely is me because I won't myself into knots trying to make peace with appalling behaviour!

I wish I could offer an insight but I’m a bit of an introvert (doesn’t mean I’m boring at sex quite the opposite just being a little shy at first often is isn’t what women want in my experience)

Do you go for the confident men?

No, not especially.

I'd much rather have a man who was a little bit shy and who was loving and kind!

I think communication is the most important thing and i think a lot of men find that difficult because men are still often brought up to be stoic and nt talk about their feelings. That certainly seems to be an issue with men in their 50s.

I would agree that a lot of women feel a little insecure and uncertain of how to proceed when a man is sexually shy. But that all comes down to the same problem. The patriarchy tells us that men are strong, commanding and virile and women are uncertain when faced with men who aren't like that as much as the men probably feel a bit awkward about it too.

Tbh, i find confident and self assured men a bit off putting.

Communication is the vital part of it you are right.

A decent man may want to explore sexually with a partner but he may worry he will be seen as a pervert.

Without the communication it’s guessing games and not really finding out what makes the other tick 😊

@AnotherStupidQuestion

So to me it begs with the question of: what’s wrong with these women that have been on these dating sites for years are still looking for “Mr Right”?

I signed on to online dating at the end of last year.

The number of men I recognised from my first stint 9 years ago, along with the same profiles/pics was astounding!

I don't think online dating is a good measure generally.

I did it years ago but wouldn't touch it now. I think there are unrealistic expectations on both sides.

I stick to the real world!

As I suspected it’s the same for women on dating sites seeing the same men from years ago.

Porn being accepted at the norm

Too much porn

Porn playing a strong role in growing up

Becoming totally pornsick

Porn

I suspect that's a large part of it.

A lot of men don't see women as people. We're just things to do sex to.

@goldielockdown2

Porn being accepted at the norm

Too much porn

Porn playing a strong role in growing up

Becoming totally pornsick

Porn

Porn is an issue, from a male perspective I know I had a huge porn addiction in my late teens/twenties I never watched violent porn but I still developed the dreaded death grip (let’s face it what vagina can compete with a hand) which effected me for a number of years.

When I made a true effort to stop watching so much porn the death grip went over time I’ve come to watch less porn and go back to past experiences in my head to get myself “there”.

Porn is an issue, from a male perspective I know I had a huge porn addiction in my late teens/twenties I never watched violent porn but I still developed the dreaded death grip (let’s face it what vagina can compete with a hand) which effected me for a number of years.

Not just women it ruins sex for then.

Did you recognise that that was the issue? What made you do something about it?

@Maca07166

From a male point of view I’ll just say this.

Because women are completely perfect and innocent right?

Indeed and let's not forget that the vast majority of these men were predominately brought up by women.....

A decent man may want to explore sexually with a partner but he may worry he will be seen as a pervert

Maybe he is a pervert. A few practices that were once the preserve of perverts are not promoted actively because of porn. Anyone who just likes (amazing) normal sex is mocked as being “vanilla” and as a result many normal but vulnerable women are increasingly being pressurised in to doing yuk stuff, which was once just the preserve of the creeps and perverts.

now promoted actively!

I think porn is a definite factor. It's got a strong desensitising effect both emotionally and physically. I'm 40 now and the accessibility of it even in my 20s was through the roof. I think there is a strong correlation between it and abhorrent sexual behaviour.

As for other aspects, well I think life is generally a lot more open now. We are the first generation where judgement for not having children is not overwhelming (it's still there, but not in the way it was 100 years ago).

So I spent my 20s single and loved every second of it. I worked hard, had my own place, a good car, lived well. In my 30s I married and settled down, had two children. I can't help but look at the freedom I had longingly. I love my wife, but the lack of responsibility and ability to answer to no one but myself was excellent. I was fortunate in that I wasn't fussed about a relationship, so knew I wasn't settling when I did enter one and it felt 'real'.

Now when children came along, I did all that a 'woke' (read decent) guy should. I went part time, shared mat leave back when doing so was hellish to agree with an employer, made sure my wife kept her agency by staying employed, with her own finances as well as the joint. I say all that just to show that the 'alpha male MRA' mindset isn't that endemic, I am certainly not unique. It helped that my wife had a career and not a job. I would not have wanted a full SAHM long term, I do feel that is one of the things that can shackle women employment wise.

One thing I must say OP is that you are 45. Kids as well? Most decent guys are in relationships by their 30s. I knew at 30vthat I had to pick a lane, go all in or remain a singleton hooking up occasionally. It's damn hard work a relationship, most of those who fail to hold it together are going to have some sort of flaw (not all by any stretch) as splitting is damaging to all financially and emotionally. The guys you are meeting are not the A squad.

I agree with a lot that has been said around porn and guys acting like Neanderthals. I don't agree that guys want a traditional woman. I wanted the opposite, a partner who would work with me both in child raising and employment wise to ensure no one was disadvantaged.

My temptation isn't other women, or porn, or being emasculated. It's being free, having no responsibility with a calendar full of hobbies and good friends. That independence is beguiling. If I did split, I'd never live with someone again and would ideally only see them twice a week maybe?

Sorry this is all a ramble. Really got me thinking.

@AnotherStupidQuestion

Did you recognise that that was the issue? What made you do something about it?

I met my ex at 21(being an introvert she was my first real relationship) she knew I had an issue early on as I could never cum through just intercourse it took a number of years and her being very supportive she said it never bothered her but it sure as hell bothered me.

Eventually through a lot of Cold Turkey the death grip went but a new problem arose.... I couldn’t last more than a few minutes of PIV (I always gave her oral before) she found it hilarious and flattering but that problem soon went also once I got used to what actual sex was like instead of using a hand.

I would never go back to porn or using my hand a lot I’ve been single just over a year from our split and admittedly I watched porn once but I quickly realised I never wanted to have that problem again and I don’t watch it.

@Wearywithteens

This thread saddens me because as a middle aged woman I know loads of decent, loyal, family orientated men with happy wives.

However I am aware of an increasing number of single young women who can’t seem to meet ‘normal’ men. I fear for my dd19 who has already written off a future relationship because every time she leaves the house she is stalked, sneered at, catcalled, leered at and treated aggressively when she rejects that. She can’t ever see herself meeting a ‘nice’ man as the men she largely sees out in the world are just sleezey scum.

Reading this fills me with dread for my 3 daughters it really does.

@PipTeak

A decent man may want to explore sexually with a partner but he may worry he will be seen as a pervert

Maybe he is a pervert. A few practices that were once the preserve of perverts are not promoted actively because of porn. Anyone who just likes (amazing) normal sex is mocked as being “vanilla” and as a result many normal but vulnerable women are increasingly being pressurised in to doing yuk stuff, which was once just the preserve of the creeps and perverts.

But then you have women who view men who want “nice/vanilla sex” as boring sexual partners? I don’t get women 😂

Because women can fall victim to the influences of porn, too, Mac. Usually via men. A lot of women's sexual experiences are shaped by it and so it goes on.

I don't want to give away my age but from the get-go I would fully expect to be throttled during sex. If I were to date, I fully expect one of the first opening questions to be about anal sex. I didn't always know I could challenge this attitude, or not go along with it. I didn't know better (or different). I just don't engage in any of it now as it disgusts me. I worry for my young DD's future, but also my own if I ever wanted to look for a new partner.

@goldielockdown2

Because women can fall victim to the influences of porn, too, Mac. Usually via men. A lot of women's sexual experiences are shaped by it and so it goes on.

I sort of get that but I don’t if that makes sense is it like a woman being talked into doing anal not particularly liking it but doing it because she feels it’s normal?