What happened to men?

[AnotherStupidQuestion]

There have been a few threads along this line recently. I don't have anything new to add really; I'm just surprised that there are so many crap men about.

I've been single for a decade. In that time, I dated a bit and had a few flings but nothing that constituted a relationship.

Even men who seem decent on the surface are hiding some deeply unattractive qualities just beneath the surface.

It's got to the point where, even on the Tell me about your lovely man threads on here, my cynical voice is asking, "But what do you not know about?"; "What's he keeping from you?; "What are you tolerating that I wouldn't?"

I know the answer is patriarchy and misogyny but I wonder how we, as a species, have become so dysfunctional that so many relationships are poor; so many women are prepared to put up with so much shit and so many men are just appalling? Yet so many seem to also want a relationship.

I don't hate men. I have a son and some very close male friends I have good relationships with. But i have given up completely on ever having a mutually respectful, loving relationship now.

Mens as friends, family, colleagues are great. Men in a relationship? Just no.

I just wondered how other people feel.

I think we can safely say that several of the men on here are providing excellent examples of exactly what is wrong with men today
They are entitled
They don’t even see the mysogyny and abuse that exists all around them because it doesn’t just not affect them, in many cases it benefits them
They also completely lack any empathy for women .this Lack of empathy and abikuty to see women as complete human beings I believe is a consequence of too much time with their right hand and porn

@Countingthebeat

I think we can safely say that several of the men on here are providing excellent examples of exactly what is wrong with men today They are entitled They don’t even see the mysogyny and abuse that exists all around them because it doesn’t just not affect them, in many cases it benefits them They also completely lack any empathy for women .this Lack of empathy and abikuty to see women as complete human beings I believe is a consequence of too much time with their right hand and porn

I didn't get "entitled" from it. I got highly undesirable, bit weird, get turned down a lot, not very successful with women, bitter as a result, shallow and superficial effect, no theory of mind. Just a whiff of any of those is enough to send most women running for the hills.

The porn-liking, the dismissive remarks, the quickness to negative generalisations and aggression - all just manifestations of the same cause.

I've ajways found it helpful in life to look at what successful people who thrive in their particular environment do. This incel type stuff is literally people who can't even manage to do that. Instead, they model themselves on the least unsuccessful and then wallow in self pity.

It's just highly sexually unattractive.

Yes greenlandthrmovie, I’ve seen men become all or some of those things from porn too . I’m yet to see one man who is made more attractive , a better lover or person from it
Your honesty is refreshing

It's been revealing and to be fair, slightly depressing, reading this thread but I wonder if something positive could emerge.

Is there an appetite for a new ongoing thread for women who are "single but not looking "
( at least not for a male partner ?

It would be good to connect with those like minded, many who've commented on this thread and be demonstrable to others that there is life without a traditional relationship.

It wouldn't, however be the female equivalent of MGTOW ..with no focus whatsoever on man bashing.. rather celebrating good men and focusing on the life women can have when they choose to put themselves first.

Thoughts welcome....

@Graphista. Round of applause 👏

I also think you are right that this thread has so far concentrated in sex for whatever reasons (maybe because some men come in, highjack the thread and can’t think about anything but their dick).

But for me, what I have a major issue with is the lack of respect in all areas.

It’s there to some extend when you are young and unattached. If you have a good job/training, you get more respect and tbh, when I was in my 20s, I would have said that actually we had more or less equality between men and women. My teens dcs would say that too. They are boys and just can NOT comprehend or see around them that there is already some imbalance. Stats about how many girls have already been sexually harassed just feel distant and they genuinely feel it’s not reflecting the reality. Or THEIR (privileged in a lot of ways) reality.

But it seems to all changed when women settled, even more when they get married and have children. It’s like a ring and a child has suddenly shackled them to a man and he can do as he pleases. Why, why so many men are able to look decent enough until children are on the scene? They clearly are able to be a good equal partner.

And that lack of respect is everywhere. From the very obvious to the most subtle attitudes. The being unable to remember what your partner has told you. Being unable to hear a child crying at night. Dismissing the amount of work involved in raising a family.
I mean just look at some comments on here when some people think they are good fathers, involved fathers because they pay CM and see their dcs at some point. That’s not what being a PARENT means. Being a parent is being involved in all the drudgery of everyday life. It’s the sharing the mental load. And tbh I’ve yet to find a man who actually does do that.

Rant over.

@Countingthebeat
So effectively your answer is ‘I’m not able to give any equivalents to what me. Are doing to women .

I don't know because I literally couldn't care less. I'm not particularly interested in men or their problems.

It's just quite clear to me that heterosexual men and heterosexual women generally have different wants and expectations of members of the opposite sex.

I think you've misunderstood me. I wasn't trying to make an oppression tally, I was simply stating that concluding that something is "wrong with men" because they don't cater specifically to the desires of women and ignore their own needs is silly on one hand and pointless on the other.
You brought up crime, which wasn't really the point of the topic and I got a bit side-tracked by that.

I'm not really putting effort into engaging with you because it's a bit pointless. Maybe women's complaints ARE more valid. Do you think men will forget their complaints because of that?

@DedlyMedally, for me something is wrong with men because as a person (regardless of the sex) they are behaving appallingly.

I would ask what is wrong with this group if said group was racist or holocaust deniers. I’m asking the same about men when they treat another group of people (in this case women) with contempt and disrespect. I couldn’t care less about their needs or wants or sexual needs tbh. But I do care when half of the population is being constantly and institutionally disrespectful towards another group.
And I care even more when those people are also in big part the same who put respect at the centre of their morals.

I care women roles is constantly being hidden from sight because wh would want to show they are actually courageous, strong, able etc.... I care when research concentrate on men and ignore women (see the number of studies made on erectile dysfunction vs pelvic pain)
I care when women are routinely been dismissed by GP, bosses, bf etc...

The list is endless.

And I care because what happen in our society is reflected in our relationships. And what happens in our relationships is reflected in our society.

So yes I would say there is something wrong with men. And it’s not about sex. Nor is it about what they want to get from life. It’s about their general attitude and sense of entitlement.

Why, why so many men are able to look decent enough until children are on the scene? They clearly are able to be a good equal partner
Why? because he knows he needs to keep her sweet, soften her up so that she will trust him, once she trusts him he can take what he wants and she will give it willingly.
Yes he is capable of being a 'good equal partner' but he has no desire for a partnership, he wants to be the boss, he cannot tolerate anything less.

@TonMoulin
It starts with kids.
I've never had any interest in kids and I've reached my 30s without any hormonal shifts that's have changed that.
I can't really relate to an overwhelming desire to procreate, but I know that women cede a lot of social power to do it (you could also argue that they gain social power by being the primary carers and facilitators of the future generation, but that doesn't seem to be particularly evident).

If women unilaterally decide to restrict childbirth, social dynamics will change significantly. I don't think most women are willing to do that so the result is a power imbalance and power imbalances are a breeding ground for bad behaviour.

Women won't be able to talk men around. Especially when the argument is "everything you do is wrong".

The only control anyone really has is over themselves and their actions. Personally, from what I see, I think that a lot of men have no real interest in bilateral monogamy, parenting, families but the women looking for casual sex are far out-weighed by the men so those women have they're pick (and why would they pick a mediocre middle-aged man).

So these men get into relationships where they see financially contributing to the family, working to get more money and caring for their kids once in a while as a sacrifice and a compromise. The women they're with often do not agree.

The trouble is that if you're a heterosexual woman or man, the opposite sex is the only game in town. The setup seems to work well enough for kids, but less well for the individual contentment of the parents.

Sorry if this derails the thread but @DedlyMedally how do you feel about women seeking highly attractive men for sex and average (and below) men paying for sex? Would that be a logical conclusion following your point above?

I do agree with you (as I previously mentioned) that generally men and women want different things and that causes a lot of the issues outlined. For instance out of all my friends who are married it was always them pushing for marriage and children, not their partners. I appreciate that is a sample size of around a dozen people only but it is interesting.

But there are plenty of good men out there. I know many, many decent men. And of course, when they're in a relationship with an attractive, educated woman, she will likely challenge him to be a better person, because otherwise he knows he will lose her.

But they are almost invariably not single after 40 and to be found on the internet. I mean there might be decent single men for good reasons in the wilds of the Finnish tundra, or similar, but in Britain, where its easily possible for a mediocre decent man to find a woman, the liklihood is that the single ones are not going to give women what they want. If what they want is a mutually respectful, fulfilling, long term relationship. Obviously there are occasional exceptions, but there really aren't that many widowers about. And they're unlikely to guve her mind blowing, satisfying sex with a hunk either. It's more likely to be awkward, unsatisfactory sex which leaves you wishing you hadn't bothered.

But they're easy to avoid. Conveniently, they congregate on Internet dating sites and speak in clichés that were out of date 40 years ago. The "you wanted equality" line is a classic of the genre, as is the "We all have needs" line, and there's many others but they follow a pattern. They depend on women being either thick or grateful, but they're all competing for a very limited market and mostly doomed to failure.

Even with my ex, I had suspicions he was shady for years, but he was just physically very beautiful and so therefore worth the experience. And in the end he went out with a bang - he cheated, dumped me, dumped the woman he cheated on me with, got back together with her for a ONS, she got pregnant, had an abortion and he's now ghosting her (she's not. All in the space of 8 months, all during lockdown! It's like a free soap opera, and very educational. And he has a real reputation now, as she was none too discrete. Obviously, I would never go there again, even if he retains his looks, because the sleaze makes him very unattractive. Even that difference in one year is the difference between a yes and a no.

But most of these men aren't physically beautiful, they're old, wrinkled and a bit podgy. This is really bad, but I have difficulty in telling them apart sometimes as a lot of them look the same.

There's a lot more opportunities now for men to meet women, but I think we should remember that very few of them are shagging gorgeous young women regularly. For most, it will be sending inane messages on OLD in the hope of a hook up (rate) or pestering women on sites like FB (as happens to me). It's difficult to describe how pathetic these men are. I don't feel sorry for them, because if they went for women their own age and level of attractiveness, and didn't just want casual sex, there wouldn't be anything to feel sorry for them about.

I think the emphasis should be more on how undesirable many of these men are, rather than how women should put up with them, have lowered exiectations and make themselves available. They rely on women being timid and a bit afraid. But they're the dregs of men. There are plenty of good men.

I think, deep down, it's still true that women and men want different things out of a relationship. And imo that is partly down to biology and evolution, not entirely down to socialisation.

I'm not defending men's behaviour - threads on this board have been eye-opening and depressing. There is no excuse for the way many men seem to treat women. But there are clearly still men who regard being (or temporarily acting like) a considerate partner, and agreeing to start a family, as the price they pay for getting sex on tap.

As long as women are willing to date, marry and stay married to men like this, those men will get away with behaving like this. And their sons will continue to grow up in their image.

I sometimes worry the good ones, aren't even that good. As per the men on this thread. They really have no idea.

I'm married to one of the 'good' ones. He does his fair share around the house, is generally quite polite and respectful to everyone. He's not one of the 'lads'.

Yet, his friends are laddish. Will he speak up when they say ridiculous, damaging stuff? No!!
Does he watch porn - yep. I'm not too bothered by it, but it definitely means he isn't really such a good guy as he doesn't care where he looks at it and certainly wouldn't make sure it is in any way ethical. It's simply there to fulfil a desire.

It took him years to realise that I too would like to have an orgasm during sex and that sex shouldn't just be done after 5 minutes when he's got his. He was totally astounded after about 5 years when I finally had the nerve to say - why is sex finished when you are? But not when I am? It hadn't even crossed his mind. I can't believe I actually put up with that disappointment for so long.

He wouldn't think to check shoe's still fit the kids, whether they need new uniform, whether we need bread even. What food we are going to eat, whether dentist appointments need making. He just relies on me for all that stuff and more. Birthdays, holidays, christmas.
I suppose I shouldn't allow it but I cannot be arsed asking another adult to do something, that wouldn't get done properly because their mother has always done everythinggg for them and they've no clue at this point how to make a doctor's appointment for themselves.

So yeah, there are 'good' guys. But how good??? And how many?

The definition of consent is lost on most people. I have friends who have been raped but they would be shocked at that suggestion because male behaviour is excused.

I like to role reverse and ask myself then, how acceptable is this??

Would it be acceptable for me to search for 'teen boy' on a porn site and think that any 18+ boy is fair game for me to stare at in the street. What would people think of me if I acted like men do with young women - my eyes following them as they walk down the street and looking them up and down.

Would it be acceptable for me to ask my husband what I should feed the kids every day?? Every meal time?? No!! But nobody bats an eyelid if the Dad does that!

Would it be acceptable for me to play fight with my daughters as soon as they are able to walk? To teach them that fighting is fun? And crying is bad?

We treat boys and girls, men and women far too differently. I'm not doubting that their are some generalisations that you can make. But, do boys get much choice in play fighting or is that how most men play with little boys as soon as they can?

I say it starts early, in our homes. And that we accept too much shit behaviour from them because it is just the 'norm' at this point. Any man who does the bare minimum is then seen as saintly. It's ridiculous.

I am so scared of raising a boy and I am very conscious of how I do it. Lord help me when he is old enough to access porn.

Mutual respect and enthusiastic consent in all areas of life, have to be key. How much do men really respect women. The way these 'good' men are talking on here doesn't give me much hope.

As long as women are willing to date, marry and stay married to men like this, those men will get away with behaving like this

Yay but as you said, those men are willing the out the effort in to start with so actually separating those who are just putting up a front and those who are genuinely ‘good’ is hard.
Befire I had Dc1, there was nothing that would made thin there would be an issue. We decided where to live together, bight a house. We would discuss what to do on hols and DH would start cooking dinner as a matter of fact.
That’s the same man who told me one month before I was due to give birth that he had a new job (in the same company) that meant he would be away 3~4 days a week. And said job would start the month I was due. That’s the same man who suddenly stopped doing any cooking in the evening or even to out his dirty stuff in the dishwasher in the am.
None of that happened before I had a child. How could I have known??

Why is sex finished when you are?
I think the answer is because he can, by and large HE is in charge of how long it lasts and so only lasts as long as HE needs it to.
When I was younger I had quite a high sex drive and I think that if I was the one who was in charge of how long it lasted I probably would just take what I wanted if I could get away with it

[quote AnaisNun]@AnotherStupidQuestion

Interesting.

I’ve had lots of good, fun, respectful, sex with ahem a fair few men. That hasn’t ever been the issue for me.

I HAVE found almost every man I’ve been in a serious relationship with to be emotionally stunted or in some way psychologically unable to connect though.

Am now a single parent, haven’t been in a relationship since I was with my DS’ father 4 years ago.

I miss sex, I miss long chats over a bottle of wine and I really miss flirting. I miss dating tbh.

I do NOT miss relationships. And am not looking for one. What would suit me (and I think importantly my DS) best would be an open relationship with someone I can trust/consider a friend, with no prospect of it becoming more than sex and dating. A fwb I suppose.

I wouldn’t want anyone to be a step dad to my DS (or even meet him probably) and don’t want to take on anyone else’s family.

I might be strange, but that’s the dream.[/quote]
I totally agree with everything in your post.

How could I have known
There is no way you could have known, this man is a stealth predator, he stalks you and watches you carefully testing to see where your boundaries are making sure that you trust him, until it's too late you are committed and then he shows his true colours because he knows that you are cornered

@EmmeG, my mantra is now ‘what would a man do?’

I’ve had to fight to get some space to develop my business and only got it because of that.
I struggled with DH not stepping up on the hw front despite me been ill and physically unable to do many things. In some ways it was expected that I would push myself over the limit. And that, if I could do that, I couldn't be that ill. Applying the ‘what would a ma do?’ principle made things easier. I just stopped and expected him to pick up the slack.

Is that an answer for everything? Nope. But it certainly puts things into perspective.

Even with my ex, I had suspicions he was shady for years, but he was just physically very beautiful and so therefore worth the experience. And in the end he went out with a bang - he cheated, dumped me, dumped the woman he cheated on me with, got back together with her for a ONS, she got pregnant, had an abortion and he's now ghosting her (she's not. All in the space of 8 months, all during lockdown! It's like a free soap opera, and very educational. And he has a real reputation now, as she was none too discrete. Obviously, I would never go there again, even if he retains his looks, because the sleaze makes him very unattractive. Even that difference in one year is the difference between a yes and a no.

Reading things like this, I think of my father. I have half siblings by 4 women (that I know of) and he hasn't stuck around to raise any of them.

A few years ago, my mother mentioned that he had tried to kiss her when they had met up platonically (they have rekindled their friendship in their later years) and she rebuffed him.
She saw this as a sort of vindication of her treatment. A sign of him regretting what he could have had. In reality, knowing my father, he just thought that she was nearby and available (despite the fact that she had remarried). With that option cut off, he would just charm another woman.

He is in his 60s now and visiting Canada to be with his new girlfriend who he had met on holiday, presumably until lockdown ends. It would be nice to think that these men regret their choices at some point, but 60+ years is a pretty good run.

He's fathered a bunch of kids, swans in and out of their lives and has never had to shoulder any actual responsibility in the process. None of these women looked at his past and thought that it might be a good idea not to let him get them pregnant.

I don't think men, in general can be blamed for the fact that men like my father exist and you're not going to talk him into being a "committed family man". Why would he? His life is pretty great.

We can only exercise control over ourselves. I hope this goes some way to providing context to my point of view.

I probably would just take what I wanted if I could get away with it

This seems a theme running amongst men. As long as they can get away with it, it’s all ok.
I would say they have very poor morals, regardless of whether we talk about sex, respecting covid restrictions or doing the hw.

I think you're right @EmmeG we need to redefine "good" and the bar set for women has always been higher than what is expected of men..that's not changing anytime soon.

We can, as much as possible educate our kids though to try and emphasise what we ourselves have learnt.
My daughter and son both do the same chores for no payment other than to know they're supporting the home, my teenagers are taught about porn..how unrealistic it is compared to real relationships and how many of the girls are coerced to perform but I have strived to have an unusually open relationship with my children that not everyone has .

Even with these measures I'm fighting against a tide of misogynistic song lyrics, playground image sharing and society at large but I don't give up.

If karma is hitting him in the arse ded it will be in his late years when he will be alone with no support because he is too old to charme a woman and his own dcs won’t want to have anything to do with him.

I’m also wondering if those people are ever happy. So much drama etc...

You're right of course, TonMoulin. It seems amazing to me that so many men do such a good job of pretending to be considerate partners at the beginning. Maybe they're not all actively pretending, I guess. Maybe it's that it's fairly easy for a man to be a considerate partner when he's dating or part of a young couple with no kids. But once his wife has taken a career hit and become the default main parent, and is tied to him by marriage and shared children, it requires a deeper and much more genuine commitment to an equal relationship for the man to continue to share the load and treat his partner like an equal. And it often turns out that he doesn't really consider his wife a person of equal worth after all.

@coronaway

Surely that's already what happens?
With sugar babies and prostitution, I'm sure there is a contingent of married men who want sex outside of their relationship which will be handled with a degree of guaranteed discretion.
However, when I read about something like onlyfans and the amounts of money that these women are making, I can't imagine that this is coming from men with abundant sex/romantic lives.
The demand leads to the supply.

I agree with OP - and as depressing as it is I think it's true. However I do believe there are some genuine good-hearted men out there, but I think they are in the minority.

I think if you want loyalty, reliability, devotion, affection and unconditional love then get a dog, not a man.