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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

What happened to men?

581 replies

AnotherStupidQuestion · 10/01/2021 12:40

There have been a few threads along this line recently. I don't have anything new to add really; I'm just surprised that there are so many crap men about.

I've been single for a decade. In that time, I dated a bit and had a few flings but nothing that constituted a relationship.

Even men who seem decent on the surface are hiding some deeply unattractive qualities just beneath the surface.

It's got to the point where, even on the Tell me about your lovely man threads on here, my cynical voice is asking, "But what do you not know about?"; "What's he keeping from you?; "What are you tolerating that I wouldn't?"

I know the answer is patriarchy and misogyny but I wonder how we, as a species, have become so dysfunctional that so many relationships are poor; so many women are prepared to put up with so much shit and so many men are just appalling? Yet so many seem to also want a relationship.

I don't hate men. I have a son and some very close male friends I have good relationships with. But i have given up completely on ever having a mutually respectful, loving relationship now.

Mens as friends, family, colleagues are great. Men in a relationship? Just no.

I just wondered how other people feel.

OP posts:
happinessischocolate · 11/01/2021 23:38

@Reglardez

Think you will find that we don't need women anymore, sex is great but we would rather have one night stands and less complicated fun than put up with the relationship nonsense. A lot of us have had our kids and have good relationships with them and paid dearly. Personally I am better off in a non committed relationship than bother with all the nonsense and constraints women tend to put on your life. You wanted equality quite rightly and now you have it enjoy.
That's great until you're in your 50s and no one want a one night stand with you anymore 😁

My male and female friends are all late 40s and 50s and the men are far more desperate for a relationship than the women are.

I know guys who are pleasant enough on the surface, and who genuinely believe that they are the "good" guys and they don't understand why women go for the bad boys, but unfortunately it only takes a few conversations to realise they are incredibly sexist, right down to telling jokes which were probably written in the 70s

Yohoheaveho · 11/01/2021 23:40

Women are just as capable of committing all the horrors of the world
True, but being capable is not the same as being inclined

Countingthebeat · 11/01/2021 23:48

@Reglardez

I was not talking about the porn industry , I was talking about sex between consenting adults who understand there is no ever after or need to settling down. The notion of romantic love seems to be just servitude for us males. How would you stop the porn industry, are the women in it victims or is it the men? Is it only a problem when it interferes with the notion of romantic committed relationships? Wars and murder will go on whenever there is power. Women are just as capable of committing all the horrors of the World as men.
It’s not just the women IN the porn industry who are the victims of it . all women and girls suffer the consequences of the mysogyny And if women and men are equally capable of committing horrors of the world WHY is it that men are commuting the HUGE majority of them
goldielockdown2 · 11/01/2021 23:49

Damn, those warring, murdering, power-having women lol. Priceless

Countingthebeat · 11/01/2021 23:51

And by the way I do agree me d and women afe wholly capable of commuting bad so your statement arising the interesting question not why men are doing most of the murders, raping , violence harassment , promoting of a porn industry that exploits , child molestation, cam girl and prostitution use ,don’t be so naive as to assume these things don’t hugely affect relationships and the quality of men out there

Yohoheaveho · 11/01/2021 23:57

Why is it that men are committing the huge majority of them
I've got a feeling it might be something like... 'because women laughed at them'? 🤔

Countingthebeat · 11/01/2021 23:59

So looking forward to how regardless will put a mysogynistic slant on this one Smile

Countingthebeat · 12/01/2021 00:00

@Yohoheaveho

Why is it that men are committing the huge majority of them I've got a feeling it might be something like... 'because women laughed at them'? 🤔
Or we’re not ‘giving ‘ them the second they deserve . One this incel shit is a joke
ButtaCup · 12/01/2021 00:01

I’m only quite young, I’ve had horrific experiences with men. I’m swearing them off now, at least until my children grow up. I can’t be bothered to deal with it all again

goldielockdown2 · 12/01/2021 00:03

Incels always spout their rubbish and end with the 'you wanted equality, enjoy it!' Every single time 😂

SunsetSenora · 12/01/2021 00:19

I think it is more do to with how relationships are built and the models of relationships we are brought up with. When you get into a relationship with someone, there are all kinds of testing and assumptions made on both sides so the pattern of the relationship are set. The problem is that when it comes to male - female relationships we have so many sexist, misogynistic ideas around us all the time, that without even really thinking about it, we end up with all kinds of bad behaviours. And it isnt getting better - in fact I think it is worse than it has ever been. I have also been single for a long time because I was just so disheartened by the people I met.

DedlyMedally · 12/01/2021 00:23

And once again you mininmise the dangers and harms of porn and cam sites to women . Why do you think an industry that’s been caught out literally time after time distributing illegal and demeaning materials AGAINST women and girls is simply ‘ something women complain about ‘ and equivalent to a man complaining his wife nags him to clean the yard or such .

Crimes being committed by people within an industry isn't an intrinsic issue with that industry. Barring actual crimes, which are dealt with via our justice system, what are the harms of it? In terms of goods, I know most men seem to appreciate it and it offers a low barrier to entry form of work for a large number of women. Belle Delphine is a multi-millionaire from selfies taken on her own home.

THIS is competelh disengenuous . Tell me what harms women are doing to men in relationships and equal in damage and scale to to harms of the porn industry . On what way are women dehumanising and demeaning men , supporting industries that have been in the news for posting men’s intimate images illegally and even underage images and abuse ?

Men have different complaints of women than women would have of men. You'd have to ask them what their issues are.

Additionally no most me. May no abuse their partners but most abuse that does occur and their is a lot . Is at the hands of men . Stop minimising this also

It's not minimising it to day that most men do not abuse women. It's don't the truth. It's an aberration. The thread is about "what is wrong with men" in a general sense. Saying that the minority of men who commit criminal acts are bad is true but irrelevant.

GreenlandTheMovie · 12/01/2021 00:30

@Reglardez

Think you will find that we don't need women anymore, sex is great but we would rather have one night stands and less complicated fun than put up with the relationship nonsense. A lot of us have had our kids and have good relationships with them and paid dearly. Personally I am better off in a non committed relationship than bother with all the nonsense and constraints women tend to put on your life. You wanted equality quite rightly and now you have it enjoy.
I've always wondered how that actually works out for men. Its difficult, as a woman, to find out. What I do know is that, even though I don't do online dating, I get contacted by a succession of hopeless, rather pathetic ageing men regularly. They all seem either quite sad or quite angry, usually the latter if they're genuinely single.

Its such a huge effort for them to constantly be on the hunt. And then theres the quality...its a truism that women sleep with who they want, but men sleep with who they can get.

And sex in ONSs isn't generally very good and men who shag around are off putting and tend to become obviously a bit on the sleazy side. So while I actually think being single and having non committed relationships is an admirable aim for men and that "settling down" isn't the be all and end all, from what I've seen of single men on the hunt, theres a lot to be said for the guys who do find a good woman and settle down. They seem more attractive too. The ageing, sleazy type - would'nt touch them with a bargepole. You would have to be desperate.

Personally think serial monogamy and the slow fade is better; it takes a lot of skill and charm to be a gigolo/playboy type and works better if you treat people well, which the average man no OLD would never manage in a month of Sundays. I mean, yes to a handsome Argentinian polo player type, no to Mr. Average in a provincial city.

wherearthough · 12/01/2021 00:33

As triggering as @Reglardez aims to be with inflammatory comments if most men were as honest as him there would be less issues.

There are many women (cue tinder) who are content with one night stands, open relationships and polyamory but ( and this is the important bit) most men don't reveal that's what they want.

Many play this dance of wanting the same things, pulling in the same direction (marriage, house, car, kids) yet it's only part of what they want if at all. It's no surprise that the biggest client base of prostitutes are married men.

I revert to my earlier point...the scales need to fall from our eyes ..men are not going to morph into our ideal because they never have been.
Losing who you are for a relationship is a compromise too far and as a previous poster said said..sex with men( if you want it) is available to women at any age with very little effort.

goldielockdown2 · 12/01/2021 00:42

Dedly simply reread the thread for your answers.

Your example of a woman being a millionaire thanks to the exploitation of porn only demonstrates the transactional, objectifying view of women many people have of women, including yourself since you made the correlation.

goldielockdown2 · 12/01/2021 00:43

Excuse the second 'of women'. Tired. Literally.

hotsouple · 12/01/2021 01:05

Honestly Maca, men unwilling to acknowledge Misogyny and Patriarchy are not usually people I trust to have a good grasp on how they have treated others, especially women. I simply do not believe you. And you sound wildly bitter about your divorce and child maintenance fees which is also not usually the sign of a man who doesn't have issues with misogyny.... Who initiated the divorce and why might I ask?

DedlyMedally · 12/01/2021 01:22

@goldielockdown2
I've read the whole thread, my answers aren't there I assure you.

Your example of a woman being a millionaire thanks to the exploitation of porn only demonstrates the transactional, objectifying view of women many people have of women, including yourself since you made the correlation.

I'm not even sure that you know what you're trying to get at here.
What is it that makes selling pictures of yourself naked for money inherently worse than, for example, being a nude model for money?

goldielockdown2 · 12/01/2021 01:28

Not worth my time engaging with you further.

FifteenToes · 12/01/2021 01:41

As triggering as @Reglardez aims to be with inflammatory comments if most men were as honest as him there would be less issues.

There are many women (cue tinder) who are content with one night stands, open relationships and polyamory but ( and this is the important bit) most men don't reveal that's what they want.

Totally agree with this. The best thing ANYBODY can do to minimise the harm and heartbreak cause by all this relationship malarky is be completely honest with partners and prospective partners about what they want and what they don't want.

Unfortunately there's a whole conscious tradition among some men, even commercialised by PUAs and the like, based on saying whatever bollox is necessary to get a woman into bed, without regard for truth whatsoever.

princessandthedragon · 12/01/2021 01:45

It’s a sign of the society we are becoming

Graphista · 12/01/2021 02:22

Totally agree op, and if anything it's getting worse again.

I can count on two hands out of hundreds of men (Relatives, friends, friends relatives and partners/spouses, ex colleagues, hcps, other professional men I have to deal with) I know the genuinely decent, respectful ones.

I also know women who've behaved appallingly but far fewer and it's not remotely on the same scale as men's behaviour.

I've been to all intents and purposes single almost 20 years, I've dated, had "arrangements" but since my divorce I've not lived with another man, it would take someone genuinely decent for me to consider that

I'm the child of an abusive marriage, my ex was not abusive he was unfaithful but behaved disgustingly in the aftermath of the marriage including going out of his way to ensure my dd and I were in dire financial straits and on the verge of homelessness in those first weeks and months. In the years since he's been a total dick over contact and cm.

The "good guys" I know 3 of them are or were single parents and I think that had a major effect on them being good guys, the others are honestly just genuinely good people.

Not one of the good men I know is under 40! I despair for my dd and her generation (she's almost 20) she has dumped guys for pushing for certain types of sex, for being plain bloody rude to her especially in front of others, for treating her friends or I rudely or poorly, for poor personal hygiene (this also seems rampant among 20 something men!), for laziness/being workshy... some of her peers have told her she's "too picky" I say she has perfectly good standards and is sticking to them. She's met one chap who was half decent but other circumstances led to their breaking up.

The rest span the scale from "just" generally entitled, useless and lazy to outright abusive.

Why do women stay in bad relationships?

Oh come on! This is hardly rocket science - lack of financial support, lack of practical support, fear of the unknown, fear of antagonising the man and that potentially being taken out on any dc (which DOES happen with alarming frequency and harm), the women not knowing any better due to their own life experience (there are a lot of women who mistakenly think a man is "good" because he is less abusive than another man they are comparing him too), women lacking confidence to go it alone...

It is a patriarchal, mysogjnistic world we live in.

They're not responsible for the bad guys' actions and don't have power over them

Actually to a degree they do, especially if they have certain occupations or roles in society.

Look at the appallingly low rape stats for example. Police and law are professions that are still mainly populated by men yet they are doing nothing about this - worse they are in many cases ACTIVELY making matters worse

Greater Manchester police force is effectively in "special measures" for the crap they've been pulling,

Likewise politics - most MPs are men and instead of acting to improve things for women are often doing the opposite

Medicine - again mostly Male drs - learn about "medical misogyny" and it's fatal effects on women and children

"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing"

I WISH they were "doing nothing" that'd be an improvement.

I've been present when men have behaved badly and spoken badly, when it has ALSO been in the presence of the good men I know those men have addressed the assholes - that is what good men do!

Women cannot do it ALONE we need the ACTIVE support of good men - just as suffragettes did and many other stages of the women's rights challenges

Change happens when ALL sectors of society demand it and work towards it.

Unfortunately at the moment with right wing politics and ideology in power across many parts of the world it's incredibly hard to achieve or even communicate about.

Women are being silenced, dismissed and ridiculed.

On sm, on msm, by high ranking politicians, by industry leaders...

I agree the completely unrestricted vileness of online porn is also a major factor.

Also "strategic incompetence" I've just posted on another thread where quite a few posters were unashamedly admitting their Male partners/spouses were incapable of sensibly doing a supermarket shop, there are numerous threads and posts and I see similar in real life regarding "the men" can't possibly be expected to wash dishes or change nappies etc it's ridiculous!

@SalemsPot22 are you oblivious to all the news stories showing how men behave towards women too? I'm afraid I think it's more likely you're oblivious rather than actually not knowing men who behave badly

@crestar nonsense! It's not certain women attracting bad men the bad men are in the majority. This is clear from wider societal studies and stats

I've tried OLD had a very tame profile on the various sites and apps, not a "provocative" pic - still inundated with dick pics and "fancy a shag" type messages way above the more polite and sensible ones. But even the ones who made a pretence at respect, within 2 dates they're pissed off if you're not in bed with them! From speaking to many other women on the matter here and in real life my experience was far from uncommon!

Case in point is BIL, who I thought was decent, brought a woman on holiday with us, who turns out to be the 'girlfriend' of him and SIL! The 3 of them were having 3 somes all week!

That's not cheating though, that's polyamory which is a perfectly valid choice that works for some people

Making men wait for sex doesn't make them into better men it just makes them behave better for a bit longer...

In my experience it's an excellent way of weeding out the sex obsessed selfish ones!

My experience is that, those good men are still misogynistic. They just aren’t aware about it

Agree with this. The good men I described earlier are very aware of the way our society benefits and promotes men and men's needs. There are other men in my circle who THINK they are good men but don't acknowledge this.

The last 3 are crimes. I thought the topic was about relationship issues...

The majority of these crimes are perpetrated by men on girls/women they have some kind of relationship to. So it's absolutely relevant. It speaks to how men view and treat the women they are related to or in romantic relationships with.

How often when a girl goes missing or is found raped/murdered are we generally unsurprised when it emerges that the perpetrator was their father, brother, cousin, boyfriend, step father etc?

A very small number of men rape and murder because they are deeply unsocialised violent criminals

Regarding rape I wholeheartedly disagree.

There are many studies that back this up too.

Lots of men (and rather too many women) don't recognise rape.

There was one particular study where Male respondents were asked if they had acted in a certain way in a scenario they were presented with as a narrative. The narrative described a rape but didn't name it. The majority of the respondents clearly said they had done similar and didn't recognise they had done anything wrong.

At one point there was a thread/group on reddit since deleted, where it was men posting the realisation that they had raped at least one person, often several, many years after the incident/s.

It's not that rape is rare, it's that it's rarely recognised.

There's at least one thread a week on here posted by an op describing a scenario, unable to name it and asking why they are feeling negatively about it where pps rightly and generally supportively point out that the op was raped/sexually abused. Often they don't want to admit it to themselves let alone anyone else.

Far too many don't truly understand consent or perform mental gymnastics to excuse their own behaviour.

The vast vast majority of rapes and serious sexual abuse are perpetrated by a close relative or romantic partner of the victim.

I know of quite a number in my circle, I've sadly witnessed rape in my own home and am a survivor of csa myself.

From my relationships with other women I cannot think of even a single one that has never been sexually assaulted in some way.

If I'm wrong on this, show me.

The problem is the majority go unreported for a wide variety of reasons that I'm sure you don't need me to list. But certainly a main one is that the authorities do fuck all in most cases and victims are demonised!

I looked into reporting and was clearly told it would be pointless by police. I am far from the only person I know with this experience. Even one especially violent rape the victim was advised not to bother as the perpetrator was her ex boyfriend - and a police officer!

Most men may use porn or cam sites and many women may complain about this, but conflating them with actual crimes is disingenuous.

You seem oblivious to the FACT that a lot of content on the most popular porn sites ARE videos of actual rapes occurring. There have been a number of media reports and responses to this

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/dec/10/pornhub-mastercard-visa-rape-child-abuse-images

Just one article on the matter and it does include the rape of minors too.

Society - via the inaction towards such criminals - is teaching boys and men it's allowed, it's acceptable. Look at all the men in recent years literally getting away with murder on "rough sex" defences.

A large proportion of those men who commit violence towards women have been, at some point, humiliated/abused/mistreated themselves. this claim has largely been disproven. Many CLAIM to have been victims themselves merely to get more lenient treatment

Feeling like I've already written prob too much but as the mother of a dd this angers and distresses me that she is having to deal with all this shit!

Graphista · 12/01/2021 02:23

@Maca07166 I've generally avoided you as I think you're mostly being quite goody, but I have to comment "less porn" isn't good enough. By using porn you are actively supporting sexual abuse and organised crime. Cut it out altogether.

Frankly I believe you are a very thinly disguised mra who has succeeded at least in part to make the thread focused on sex which is merely one part of this debate

Your comments re cm are disgusting and inaccurate, not least because cm rates in the Uk where I assume you and your family are, are woefully inadequate and don’t come close to covering half the cost of raising those children in the vast vast majority of cases.

Less than 20% of an nrps take home income is pathetic frankly

That’s because that money is used to pay rent, buy food, heat the house, have some light, pay for the petrol to take them to school and activities etc etc etc exactly!

So many nrps (mostly men) seem to “forget” that children don’t merely need to be clothed and fed, they need to be housed, heated, washed, educated, socially developed, nurtured. That all takes money!

My ex has a similar attitude to you, it’s disgusting and completely inaccurate

I’d love to know exactly how much cm you are paying, I strongly suspect it’s pitiful and that you only pay under duress.

He’s a wallet yep! True colours showing now!

Who reemburses the father for the days they have them? I feed and clothe my kids if I’m taking care of them 2 days a week shouldn’t I get some money for that?

That is accounted for in cm assessments already, you ARE allowed to keep some money to cover this

Also
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LaPHPQt91w8

HTH

Child maintenance calculator is so strict it doesn’t take into account how much I see them it only takes into account how many nights a week they can stay over.

No that’s only one factor of the calculation, it IS intended to also account for ALL time spent with the nrp that’s one of the arguments for why it’s so low! So that nrps can also provide for dcs needs when they’re with them

Twice in 6 weeks they will sleep over on a Saturday and I take them back Sunday evening so you don’t even have them eow?

According to the calculator doing all that still requires me to pay £411 a month

You do know this is a MINIMUM right? Are you paying this? Paying more?

which would help me have the kids round every weekend wow! And what about the dc is that what would be best for them? Why should your ex not have leisure time with them?

If I had them 7 days a week and they never stopped over I’d still have to pay the amount because they don’t stop over. not true

@GCAcademic thank you for checking on that and showing this poster up for the liar they are

it’s automatically assumed it’s because he wants the maintenance bill reduced. that’s because in the majority of cases that’s the truth!

Even in supposed cases of 50/50 many men in that scenario don’t buy school uniform, pay for school lunches, arrange medical appointments etc it’s mere lip service and not actual 50/50 at all

It literally does not take into account anything else.

Yes it does

If you are going to make statements like this you really need to be sure of your facts first

I stayed in a job that pays well and will enable me to save up the 20k at the very minimum I need to be able purchase a property and leave something valuable for my children down the line

Yes because you are ABLE to do so because you are NOT. An rp

Btw picking the dcs up for a couple of hours every other week is NOT a sign of being highly involved agreed

Lol, if you can still save that much money whilst paying said maintenance (only used by your ex for her benefit) then yes you are benefitting. precisely

I think we have ample demonstration on this thread of what is wrong with men.

One man has made the entire thread about him, and his perceived sense of victimhood, using outright lies to do so.

Absolutely

What’s a truly involved father in your eyes?

One who doesn’t bitch about paying cm for a start!

One who is involved in ALL aspects of their children’s lives from the beginning. The only thing a father cannot do is bf, they can change nappies, bathe, comfort, do night wakings/early mornings, take to medical appointments, do bedtimes, sit with them and reassure them after nightmares, check out childcare, drop offs and pickups, teach and support child’s development, attend parents evenings, cover days the child is home sick or school holidays, manage child related admin etc none of which I believe you do nor ever did

Her mother is a child minder so that leaves a lot of flexibility in her arranging child care this perfectly exemplifies how you are missing the point! Childcare when you both work is both of your responsibility. Frankly if it were up to me nrps would pay half childcare on top of maintenance unless they provide half the childcare.

You’re an uninvolved father because you spend very little time with dc (your choice) and the time you do spend with them is “easy” aspects of parenting.

Countingthebeat · 12/01/2021 04:01

@DedlyMedally

And once again you mininmise the dangers and harms of porn and cam sites to women . Why do you think an industry that’s been caught out literally time after time distributing illegal and demeaning materials AGAINST women and girls is simply ‘ something women complain about ‘ and equivalent to a man complaining his wife nags him to clean the yard or such .

Crimes being committed by people within an industry isn't an intrinsic issue with that industry. Barring actual crimes, which are dealt with via our justice system, what are the harms of it? In terms of goods, I know most men seem to appreciate it and it offers a low barrier to entry form of work for a large number of women. Belle Delphine is a multi-millionaire from selfies taken on her own home.

THIS is competelh disengenuous . Tell me what harms women are doing to men in relationships and equal in damage and scale to to harms of the porn industry . On what way are women dehumanising and demeaning men , supporting industries that have been in the news for posting men’s intimate images illegally and even underage images and abuse ?

Men have different complaints of women than women would have of men. You'd have to ask them what their issues are.

Additionally no most me. May no abuse their partners but most abuse that does occur and their is a lot . Is at the hands of men . Stop minimising this also

It's not minimising it to day that most men do not abuse women. It's don't the truth. It's an aberration. The thread is about "what is wrong with men" in a general sense. Saying that the minority of men who commit criminal acts are bad is true but irrelevant.

So effectively your answer is ‘I’m not able to give any equivalents to what me. Are doing to women . Nice attempt to disguise it but very transparent How about you give us even one complain equals to the rape and harassment etc women in the scale men do it that women are doing Men have all these complaints , sure . My whole complain is that those complaints pale in comparison to what men are doing. Thankyou for proving my point .
Countingthebeat · 12/01/2021 04:05

@goldielockdown2

Dedly simply reread the thread for your answers.

Your example of a woman being a millionaire thanks to the exploitation of porn only demonstrates the transactional, objectifying view of women many people have of women, including yourself since you made the correlation.

Yea and the fact that he can’t see the absolute inequality that we live I a world where practically the only industries women can outward men is prostitution and porn . Both industries that rely on them meeting men’s approval , desires , looking the way men want etc . It’s al at men’s discretion The fact women earn lots of money when they sexually sell their bodies and look the way men will pay for only reinforces the fact we are not valued for our minds or talent . It’s al about what men want and decide is worthy or paying for