What happened to men?

[AnotherStupidQuestion]

There have been a few threads along this line recently. I don't have anything new to add really; I'm just surprised that there are so many crap men about.

I've been single for a decade. In that time, I dated a bit and had a few flings but nothing that constituted a relationship.

Even men who seem decent on the surface are hiding some deeply unattractive qualities just beneath the surface.

It's got to the point where, even on the Tell me about your lovely man threads on here, my cynical voice is asking, "But what do you not know about?"; "What's he keeping from you?; "What are you tolerating that I wouldn't?"

I know the answer is patriarchy and misogyny but I wonder how we, as a species, have become so dysfunctional that so many relationships are poor; so many women are prepared to put up with so much shit and so many men are just appalling? Yet so many seem to also want a relationship.

I don't hate men. I have a son and some very close male friends I have good relationships with. But i have given up completely on ever having a mutually respectful, loving relationship now.

Mens as friends, family, colleagues are great. Men in a relationship? Just no.

I just wondered how other people feel.

So, as a man and seeing what you are hearing from other men, what do you think should happen??

Wow, that's a huge question. I don't know what should happen to society as a whole but in terms of what women do I think wherearthough pretty much has it -

We need to reboot our expectations ..accept men for what they are ...and make informed choices...else we could come back in 100 years and still have the same conversation.

The problem from women's point of view, and the reason (as anthropologists would have it, at least) that women have always tolerated so much crap from men, is that women become economically unproductive for periods of their life while getting pregnant and rearing infants. So pretty much every society has involved women accepting the economic protection of men within some kind of family unit, and the trade-off of power that goes with it.

Crack that, and you're sorted. As a large proportion of women (from what I gather) seem to be somewhere on the spectrum of bisexuality, I don't know why more of them don't couple up or form communes for child rearing, reducing our input and influence to what can be got out of a turkey baster. Honestly, I don't know why you still bother with us.

As for what men do, it's not really true as some people suggest here that marriage serves their needs admirably while requiring nothing of them. Elsewhere on the internet you can find plenty of places where men complain about relationships with women just as much as women complain about men here, and there are these burgeoning movements like MGTOW exploring how to let go of the One Special Person / Nuclear Family myth altogether.

I'm a bit different in that I've always valued honesty above everything, so I've never gotten into relationships where I pretended to do one thing while doing something else behind the person's back. I just can't imagine wanting to have a life that is that complicated. I've watched porn while in relationships but not pretended otherwise and I like to be able to comment on other people I'm attracted to (and for my partner to do the same). Women that consider that sort of thing a problem are just not the right partners for me. But I'm older now, the raging bull has slowed down a bit and I doubt I'll get into another serious relationship anyway. Too much hassle.

The problem with sexuality been expressed in different ways is that one for me. You dnt have sex on your own but with somene else. If a man wants sex with a woman, he should have no other choice than actually taking her needs for a relationhsip into account

Totally agree with that, although if it's a ONS or FWB relationship or whatever, then those are the only "relationship needs" involved. And also, for all sorts of reasons, such needs are often not clearly articulated, are assumed to be understood the same way or evolve over time after people are already committed within relationships.

Breed a smaller more sensitive man? Why on earth? We need strong men for when we have earthquakes etc. Why try to make men weaker? Why not make yourselves stronger? Make yourselves financially independent for one. So that, yes, you can tell the mean ones to fuck off.
Some men hate women. Some love them. The vast, vast majority are pretty indifferent to them (except for their mothers and daughters). They think about women far far less than women think and talk about them.
I don’t understand the women who say “but they should respect us because we’re vulnerable”. Why on earth should they? What’s so good about you that someone else should feed and support you all your life? If women are equal to men they should step up and look after themselves. Within reason clearly. For example women lack the physical strength of men because our bodies are aimed instead towards childbearing. So society pays strong men to keep physically weaker people safe from violent criminals (I accept it’s not always as good a system as it could be). So contribute financially towards this service, just like older men and smaller men and men with children and elderly parents have to.
On the other hand, if you really think that women genuinely can’t support themselves because they are in some way inferior to men and must lean on them at all times, then why be surprised that men don’t respect them?!
Clearly there are exceptions to the above, and a nasty, violent partner is a whole different ball game. I’m talking about the majority of men who are....indifferent.

@Deadringer, my comment was the conclusion that I draw from that quote therefore this was a question to the poster
'Is it really what you mean?!?'
I think said poster understoof it that way too...

Not because I cant understand that others think differently but because I would hope that as humans, we have moved on from being only animals guided by only our ANIMAL instincts towards something where intelligence, mindfulness of what is happening around us and the ability to put yourself in someone else shoes actually exists. aka being MORE than just an animal guided by sexual instincts.

That's an interested take @FifteenToes. Not sure I agree with your take that most women are bisexual but hey ho....

But one that assumes that it's up to women to change, build a commune and what not. I havent seen a lot in your post where it talks about what MEN should do/change.
Why is that?

@TonMoulin
Then I was mistaken.
I don't think the desire to have sex is any more animalistic than a desire to "nest" and rear children though.
Humans are animals. We are an exception to other mammals in many ways, but our approach to intersexual relationships and family is one of the areas where our ancestry is most evident.

Mischance - great review - the book looks very interesting. Perry is certainly a very bright man who in the role of ‘outsider’ can take a clear look

I think of exercise - men seem to value exercise that can be counted/measured eg a run in a certain time. Not if it makes them feel good. It’s the same in many of their jobs and family lives.

Exhausting for men and doomed to failure and stress as they go through life.

I agree with the desire to nest @DedlyMedally. That's just as primordial.

But we've seen recently how women are less and less likely to have children. Thta's becase teyve decided that actually by having children, they get the wrong end of the deal so they've stepped out despite that innate need.

And so can men with their primordial need for sex (which Im pretty sure women have too btw)

The problem for me isn't those needs. They are pretty normal. But it's the idea that they can't be controlled.

Btw, I've always said the paternalist model that put wmen in the position they are in is actually bad for men too.

You just have to look at the level of suicide. 3x as much as women.

So yes they have all the advantages but despite that, they are still hurting a lot. It makes me wonder why THEY are not wanting to change the system for something better iyswim

@TonMoulin
But we've seen recently how women are less and less likely to have children.

You could equally argue that the increased acceptance of casual sex and the proliferation of online dating makes it less appealing for men to settle down too. It takes two people to make a child and either of them could be deciding that they don't want to.

Another reading of that story is that sex was a major part of the reason that some men entered into marriage and family. Withdraw that "requirement" and they're less likely to get married and have families.

You just have to look at the level of suicide. 3x as much as women.

I always think it's a bit callous to look at a society where men are killing themselves significantly more often than women and saying it's because women are mistreated. We've made great strides in the treatment of women in the last 100 years and traditional gender roles have relaxed significantly. Are men killing themselves more or less?
Suicide is, ultimately, a rejection of society and the trend is an upward one.
I'm not saying this means we should regress 100 years before someone takes it that way. I'm simply saying that the stats don't seem to back that narrative.

Fifteen oh great so the answer to male problems is yet again down to women. This time to just accept them for what they are and suck it up, or else get thee to a nunnery whoops I mean, 'female commune' and raise children together. The onus is never on men.

I think Perry is on the right track, the key is convincing enough men that tackling toxic masculinity is to THEIR benefit in order to start any real change although I have seen some small shifts in attitude in regards to being more open with emotions. But I'm 31, I don't know about older men. And men my age are still mostly absolutely porn sick.
For me personally I don't know what the answer is because I've chosen to be single, I don't see wasters as an achievement and I'm also worn down by every day disgusting comments and cat calls, so the thing I'd miss in a relationship isn't companionship, it would be sex. Of course I could settle for a lifetime of casual encounters but is the risk worth it? Does it even appeal? Not really, because I know what's out there. Also a mother so there's that. Not to mention that no one NEEDS sex. Believing that is half of the problem as that leads to entitlement...and male entitlement being justified.
Maybe I should try and change my sexuality and join a 'women's commune' lol.

As fucked up as my childhood was, in a way I’m grateful I had the opportunity to see what men could be like through my own dear misogynist father, a serial womaniser, user of porn and prostitutes who treated my mum like his personal slave. She stayed with him because he had the ‘big job’ which meant more financial security than she could provide alone. He was born in the 40s and is passed now. No doubt many of his ‘issues’ with women were caused by his mother who was narcissistic. Undoubtedly my poor mother couldn’t see this when she met him, and he lacked the insight and had too much ego to deal with the trauma from his childhood. However, it’s no justification for being a vile dickhead. I wish more women would be wise to this sort of crap. The maybe more men would realise they need to change? Who knows.
As a PP said, women are not rehabilitation centres for faulty men - that’s spot on
My DH is thankfully nothing like my father. Of a different generation anyway. I’ve told him that if I ever catch him with porn I’ll put my naked body online for random men to ogle... if it’s good enough for someone else’s daughter/ mother/ wife/ etc to do then why can’t I? He doesn’t like the idea of that! Would any man want their precious daughter/ etc to be in porn? If not, then why is it ok for someone else’s daughter/ etc to sell their body? Aren’t we all meant to be equal?

I just don't agree this is the case.

MN gives a very slanted view . People don't post about their fantastic trouble free relationships. Well most don't.

I still think shitty males are in the minority although i would say it's a significant number.

I am late 50's. 7 kids (dc+sdc) so know a fair few kids parents. Can't think of a single parent amongst them. Although I can only think of 2 from a first marriage. Most seem to be very happily married (not living together) second time round.

@goldielockdown2 I sense your frustration and yes it is disheartening that very few discussions re male behaviour result in ownership or actions to address said male behaviour.

Psychology 101 will tell you there needs to be a motivator and at this point in time there isn't a reason for men to change. Not one that they are immediately faced with daily anyhow.

Morals are a dirty word and society is more than ever encouraged to upgrade and throw away.
It's no surprise we are where we are ..

@FifteenToes

Perhaps men take issue but I don't think it’s for such things as using cam men , porn , rape , harassment and murder If so please provide stats to show women are committing such serious offences as these we frequently see men commuting against women and in anywhere near the same numbers Otherwise stop minimising the fact that men are the ones doing the VAST MAJORITY of porn , cam use , violence, harassment and murder

This is a good example of the confusion that makes this topic go round in circles without really getting anywhere.

A very small number of men rape and murder because they are deeply unsocialised violent criminals. That doesn't really tell us anything about men in general though.

A large majority of men use porn, either because they don't get sex or as an addition to monogamous sex. That tells us that most men have a strong need for sex, that it functions largely independently of emotional and social factors (unlike that of most women), and that it's deeply non-monogamous.

The problem comes with how they attempt to meet those needs with women who see and feel things very differently, in a society that still assumes long term monogamy as the default aspiration. Unfortunately in many cases that involves a lot of lying and deceit, and people get hurt.

@FifteenToes the male sexual "needs" you refer to are actually "desires/wants". A very important distinction.

As others have already outlined, the use of porn by men is extreme damaging and must not be minimised. Aside from the already terrible damage on an individual level it causes, which leads to men objectifying women and seeing sex from the prism of an horrific male perspective where women exist soley as sexual objects without human dignity, for the purpose of male.pleasure, on a wider level, the porn industry these men are supporting is perpetuating violence, sexual abuse, trafficking and exploitation of women, and in many cases, children. Those who watch porn are responsible for feeding these things.

@TonMoulin

That's an interested take *@FifteenToes*. Not sure I agree with your take that most women are bisexual but hey ho....

But one that assumes that it's up to women to change, build a commune and what not. I havent seen a lot in your post where it talks about what MEN should do/change.
Why is that?

It's obviously up to women to change how they do things if women want things to be different and more in accordance with what's going to make them happy. That's what people do, they try and act upon their environment in a way that will create the kind of environment they want.

I didn't actually say anything about what women should do, for any reason other than their own. If you don't want to go an live in a lesbian commune don't do it. I just took a quote from wherearthough and said it made sense to me as a way that women might be happy - by ceasing to expect men to be different, accepting their nature and limitations and then working out what's the best way to interact with that, or not, for their own good. There are plenty of women here, including on this thread, who have said much the same thing.

Men are exploring changing attitudes to life and relationships too, but they're obviously going to do that from the perspective of how they see things and how they can find happiness, just as you do.

So @FifteenToes, in their exploration, what have men found and what they going to do so they don’t end up on the side whilst women build up a commune instead?

@goldielockdown2, you said what I wanted to say but much better!

@DedlyMedally, you misunderstood.

What I mean is that the patriarcal system doesn’t do any good, either for women or for men. Not that women are responsible for the suicide level in men

If a high level of suicide is a rejection of society, then I’m wondering what are men doing about it?

[quote TonMoulin]@DedlyMedally, you misunderstood.

What I mean is that the patriarcal system doesn’t do any good, either for women or for men. Not that women are responsible for the suicide level in men

If a high level of suicide is a rejection of society, then I’m wondering what are men doing about it?[/quote]
What I mean is that the patriarcal system doesn’t do any good, either for women or for men. Not that women are responsible for the suicide level in men confused

I wasn't saying that you were. Just that our society is moving to a place where it it less "patriarchal" and year-on-year male suicide rates are rising.
It's a genuine issue but if I had a penny for every time this factoid was used in a conversation like this as evidence for the patriarchy (with no real basis and what seems like an inverse correlation) I'd have a lot of pennies.
It's sort of mean-spirited.

If a high level of suicide is a rejection of society, then I’m wondering what are men doing about it?
I don't know. Why would I?
It's not really a topic that comes up much here or one that I take a personal interest in.

@TonMoulin

So *@FifteenToes*, in their exploration, what have men found and what they going to do so they don’t end up on the side whilst women build up a commune instead?

Build sex robots.

Indulge their obsession with technology, get all the sex they want and women don't have to have anything to do with it.

Everyone's a winner.

I do wonder @FifteenToes whether this may be a solution.
The male sex toy market is nascent when compared to womens and considering the low sexual satisfaction rates of women in relationships this would reduce the pressure on them and allow them to explore their own sexual needs.

There is more to life than sex but mismatched sexual needs/ infidelity is a well known cause of relationship breakdown so yes let the guys use robots.

Well, I came on earlier to give my view “as a woman” which was that often women complain a lot about men without actually doing as much as they could to be less dependent on them. And I still think, abusive situations aside, it is a good point.
But I see the thread has been taken over by some Mgtow-type men who seem to be enjoying really telling us women how little they need us.
The original OP seemed to me to ask how men and women could relate better to each other. Women being more independent is important I firmly believe, in order to gain more respect. But men telling women to basically sod off to a commune, they’ll use a sex robot instead is unhelpful. Go back to your incel forums dears, you’ve made your point here.

Ok, maybe fifteen toes was trying to be helpful...

This thread has gone way off the rails.

To answer OPs question:

You aren't finding decent men because at 45 any decent men have settled down and are working at their marriages OR care not for relationships.

All the shit men (of which there are many) are out there, unable to form a loving lasting attachment with another human and mass of orrible isms (porn linked and other) and poor behaviours.

You are not a good prospect. You are 45, you have a son (who appears to pick mentally unstable women as partners so that's a load of drama right there) and are understandably jaded by your experiences with the shitbag end of the male pool.

If I for whatever reason imploded my marriage and was single, I would weed you out based on circs. I would remain single rather than take on a jaded partner with a kid who is inviting close drama with his mental girlfriends.

The porn stuff is spot on. Any decent man doesnt use it and sees it as damaging.

My previous posts express my views on good marriages for both sexes.

So basically let’s reduce men to be a sperm donor if that because

• they’ll be better of with a robot
• women are lesbian anyway and will be better in a commune, raising the children and I assume earning money too.

Yep @FifteenToes, as a man you have a very poor view of men 😂😂😂