What happened to men?

[AnotherStupidQuestion]

There have been a few threads along this line recently. I don't have anything new to add really; I'm just surprised that there are so many crap men about.

I've been single for a decade. In that time, I dated a bit and had a few flings but nothing that constituted a relationship.

Even men who seem decent on the surface are hiding some deeply unattractive qualities just beneath the surface.

It's got to the point where, even on the Tell me about your lovely man threads on here, my cynical voice is asking, "But what do you not know about?"; "What's he keeping from you?; "What are you tolerating that I wouldn't?"

I know the answer is patriarchy and misogyny but I wonder how we, as a species, have become so dysfunctional that so many relationships are poor; so many women are prepared to put up with so much shit and so many men are just appalling? Yet so many seem to also want a relationship.

I don't hate men. I have a son and some very close male friends I have good relationships with. But i have given up completely on ever having a mutually respectful, loving relationship now.

Mens as friends, family, colleagues are great. Men in a relationship? Just no.

I just wondered how other people feel.

Perhaps men take issue but I don't think it’s for such things as using cam men , porn , rape , harassment and murder
If so please provide stats to show women are committing such serious offences as these we frequently see men commuting against women and in anywhere near the same numbers
Otherwise stop minimising the fact that men are the ones doing the VAST MAJORITY of porn , cam use , violence, harassment and murder

This is a good example of the confusion that makes this topic go round in circles without really getting anywhere.

A very small number of men rape and murder because they are deeply unsocialised violent criminals. That doesn't really tell us anything about men in general though.

A large majority of men use porn, either because they don't get sex or as an addition to monogamous sex. That tells us that most men have a strong need for sex, that it functions largely independently of emotional and social factors (unlike that of most women), and that it's deeply non-monogamous.

The problem comes with how they attempt to meet those needs with women who see and feel things very differently, in a society that still assumes long term monogamy as the default aspiration. Unfortunately in many cases that involves a lot of lying and deceit, and people get hurt.

@Countingthebeat
AFAIK most men do not rape, commit harassment (to the degree it is illegal) and are not violent towards their partners. If I'm wrong on this, show me.
Most men may use porn or cam sites and many women may complain about this, but conflating them with actual crimes is disingenuous.

I really do think that the widespread watching of porn is seriously undermining men's expectations of their partners, and undermining the importance of sound loving relationship as a basis for sexual activity.

Call me old-fashioned if you will, but I really do not think it helps that a man can switch on his phone and, at the drop of a hat anywhere anytime, watch women being exploited. What is new is the wide and easy access to these sites.

Do we assume that are men are basically animals whose prime imperative is to have their sexual needs satisfied? Or do we live in the hope that respect and love are given a high priority by both men and women.

[quote TonMoulin]@DedlyMedally, yes the last 3 are crimes. But they still happen within a relationhsip. And they are representative of a wider issue.

eg rape is about the feeling of entitlment to sex (and the feeling of power). Do you think its nit also played within elationhsio jut thrugh sulking because he didnt have sex? And then the subsequent 'Oh things are so much better when we have sex regulary so I ensure we still have sex 3 times a week even if I only really feel like it 1x per week'. Also the 'well I am finding I am getting into the swing of things if I force myself to start (having sex)'

Physical violence and murder is the expression that men feel they are above women and they ought to get their way regardless (they would never do that to a man). See how much men actually put pressure on their partner and expect to get their way (aka cleaning should be done at the evel they want, he should be able to have as much leisure time as they want but no expectation that the woman should too etc....)[/quote]
The problem is you're taking things that are just disagreements about how relationships are going to work and painting them as one sided by connecting them as a "wider issue" with extreme acts like rape. You can play that game about anything; the fact remains that people are only guilty of what they actually do.

Women sulk in relationships too. A Lot. In fact I'm very reluctant to believe that men sulk any more than women do. It's a pretty common part of human nature that people sulk when they don't get what they want. It's not a very functional way to deal with relationship issues, but it's not a crime either.

Men and women in relationships often want different things. Men more often want lots of sex, so if they're the kind of individual that is prone to sulking that's what they'll sulk about it. Women often want all sorts of other things, and those that are prone to sulking sulk about those.

One of the least helpful aspects of this topic is that women often have a clever way of portraying men's pursuit of their wants as meaning they're horrible selfish antisocial monsters, while disguising women's pursuit of their own wants as just "normal", "mature" behaviour "for the good of the family" etc. So clever that they believe it themselves and then can't understand why men can't ascend to their level.

@FifteenToes,
That tells us that most men have a strong need for sex, that it functions largely independently of emotional and social factors

the way you look at men as basically animals (as well all are) only driven by sex and struggling to control their urges is frightening.

My personal take on that is that its not innate and impossible to handle. Its a nurture issue.
When men are repeadily told they might always be up for it, that sex is a right, that they are supposed to want sex 3 times a week to be a real man, of course their 'need' for sex and only sex is hightened.
On the ohers die, women are told they are the weaker sex and need to protect themselves all the time. And one way to do so is through a relationship. They are also thought to always think about others, look after them etc... So of course, their 'need' for a relationship is stronger.

Except that, what we see, is that when women get more independent and less reliant on said relationship for their safety (financial, or physical), women suddenly have much likely to accept the 'laid back, I just want physical sex' type of men.

@Mischance

I really do think that the widespread watching of porn is seriously undermining men's expectations of their partners, and undermining the importance of sound loving relationship as a basis for sexual activity.

Call me old-fashioned if you will, but I really do not think it helps that a man can switch on his phone and, at the drop of a hat anywhere anytime, watch women being exploited. What is new is the wide and easy access to these sites.

Do we assume that are men are basically animals whose prime imperative is to have their sexual needs satisfied? Or do we live in the hope that respect and love are given a high priority by both men and women.

I did watch some porn a while ago. I wanted to look at what there was there, mainly because I also wanted to be able to have a discussion on porn with my teens based of facts and hat I had seen rather than hearsay iyswim.

It has been eye opening to say the least.
What Ive seen is scenes of rape where the woman was clearly off on drugs. Scenes where women were raped (as in people were doing stuff to them they didn't want)
Men who were supposed to be viril and up for it with flacid penis (there are many of them!)
and for me, the most surprising thing, the fact that I ended up more comfortable with some BDSM scenes than the 'normal' heterosexual scenes because the guy was actually looking like they could SEE the woman rather than just banging something.

But roughly, the only thing you see is male pleasure and entitlement.
Nothing about female pleasure. Nothing about reciprocity. but bare animal instinct.

I guess the issue is one of harm @FifteenToes...if a woman's pursuits result in widespread harm to men it becomes an issue for men.
If a man's pursuit results in the dehumanization of women then there's harm- widespread porn use has been shown to do this .

Lets never forget that women start from a place of inequality which underpins all of this discussion.
As I've mentioned before, the empirical experience of countless women ( me too movement aside) suggests there is a huge issue and the only level men should aspire to is to be decent, human beings ...not a great ask.

@TonMoulin

I'm a man (sorry I thought that was clear from earlier in the thread but sometimes forget when I've mentioned it and when I haven't). I'm referring both to my personal experience and knowledge of and communication with other men.

I certainly didn't mean to suggest that men are only driven by sex. That would be ridiculous. But certainly the way sexual desire operates and interacts with (or is independent of) social and emotional factors is very different from women's experience (as far as I understand women's experience, from how they describe it and act upon it).

We're not going to resolve the nature/nurture debate here, but it seems like absurdly wishful thinking to insist there must be no innate aspect to that at all. Why? Our bodies are different. Our hormones are different, with men have far higher testosterone etc. etc. Men don't have a womb and can't nurture a baby inside them.

It would seem miraculous to me if the way we felt and expressed sexuality were exactly the same.

@GCAcademic

I think we have ample demonstration on this thread of what is wrong with men.

One man has made the entire thread about him, and his perceived sense of victimhood, using outright lies to do so.

Absolutely this. One loud bellowing man’s voice whining about why his life is so unfair. And all of us pandering to him. Trying to educate him and explain what he could have done differently.

This is what’s wrong with men - and women - we let the fuckers take over and waste our energy on them instead of ourselves. Imagine the world we could have built if women had the equipment to assault and terrorise men into submission.

I read a book called The Power about women and girls discovering they had the ability to use electric shocks from their hands. Men and boys would cower while women dominated them with their physical power. Made for quite the read. Worth a look if you need something to fire your feminist spirits!

So, as a man and seeing what you are hearing from other men, what do you think should happen??

The problem with sexuality been expressed in different ways is that one for me. You dnt have sex on your own but with somene else. If a man wants sex with a woman, he should have no other choice than actually taking her needs for a relationhsip into account. because otherwise
1- if he doesnt then her gets his physical sex only and is pressuirng/forcing women to accept that. How is that acceptable?
2- He benefits a hell of a lot of being a relationhsip so why should he actually make an effort to make it work too??

fwiw, I woud say women already make an effort to take those 'masculine differences' towards sex into account. That's why women don't have an orgasm when they have sex in about 40% of cases.....

Let's not also overlook the studies that show married men live longer ( all those nagging wife appointments to visit the doctor yield rewards it would seem) yet it's funny I never hear men mention that on these threads.

Objectively women gain very little from marriage which is probably why we initiate over 70% of divorces.
We need to reboot our expectations ..accept men for what they are ...and make informed choices...else we could come back in 100 years and still have the same conversation.

@TonMoulin

Men/people in general don’t respect people who are dependent on them

Yep I agree with that.
The problem comes when they ALSO expect you to come second to their work, be there for the dcs and stop everything for them so they don't have to etc.... Whilst also having a major issue of said partner earns more than them etc...

What financial independence gives women is respect gained fron the ability to tell men to fuck off.
And tbh that is a very sad state of affair.

It really is. Women should be able to trust that their partner will continue to be kind and loving even if the woman is vulnerable and dependent. Obviously, there are limits to that, but many women who have children will end up being dependent or vulnerable in some way when they have children, which is why I think childbearing often either starts or escalates violence or horrible behavior in certain individuals. It's not all to do with stress or depression - it's to do with the fact that their wives cannot easily leave them because they have children together and they know their wives are financially dependent on them as well. It's misuse of power really/

I agree that a central aspect of this is power. And control. A large proportion of those men who commit violence towards women have been, at some point, humiliated/abused/mistreated themselves. Btw I am NOT saying this excuses their behaviour - but some of those will respond by seeking to gain power as central to their self identity, and the obvious choice of victim is someone less powerful - a woman. Society and history has positioned women as the weaker and less powerful sex - something that male created porn only reinforces. I do think this is changing but not very quickly.

It is worth reading The Descent of Man by Grayson Perry.

This is a review I wrote of it:

"This is an intelligent, fluently written and thought-provoking account of being male in today's society. His basic argument is that the stereotype of the male does a huge disservice to society (and has done so throughout history) and to men themselves. He is not anti-men – he is one himself – nor blindly pro-feminist, but writes with a sense of sadness at the moulding of boys and young men into a form that demands more of them than any human should be asked to shoulder, to their detriment and that of us all:

“most violent people, rapists, criminals, killers, tax avoiders, corrupt politicians, planet despoilers, sex abusers and dinner-party bores, do tend to be, well… men”

His “Default Man” “... prioritizes 'rational' goals like profit, efficiency, self-determination and ambition over emotional rewards like social cohesion, quality of life, culture and happiness.”

“What would happen if we rethought the old, macho, outdated version of manhood, and embraced a different idea of what makes a man? Apart from giving up the coronary-inducing stress of always being 'right' and the vast new wardrobe options, the real benefit might be that a newly fitted masculinity will allow men to have better relationships - and that's happiness, right?”

He is very good at asking us to contemplate how the male view of the world “just is” – it is what we have all grown up with – it is what we accept as the norm - it is woven into the fabric of our western world, from town planning and political systems to the design of public toilets.

The book is not without its flaws. It attempts to be all-encompassing, but is in fact mainly centred around the western male. However, it is a charming, honest and tender attempt to set the ball rolling on a new way of looking at masculinity; not one that is based on feminist theories (which is where most analyses of gender equality start), but one that takes a close look at how men are nurtured into a role that is not only painful for many men themselves but also causes (and has caused) untold misery for the world. There is a gently regretful air to the book, coupled with wit and humour and a hint of hope - and tongue in cheek...“We need to breed smaller, more sensitive men. Get Gareth Malone to a sperm bank now!”

Quite 🙄

Oops, that was concurring with this: Well, this had the potential to be a really interesting discussion but since last night it’s been thoroughly and comprehensively derailed which is a great shame.

we let the fuckers take over and waste our energy on them instead of ourselves
Ain't that the truth, but it was easier for them to take over in the past, now that we can earn our own money we need them less

@TonMoulin
the way you look at men as basically animals (as well all are) only driven by sex and struggling to control their urges is frightening.

If you find the idea that people who are not you may have different priorities and wants in life frightening, I'm not sure what to tell you.
You must have lived a fairly privileged life.

I used to think this then I read he's just not that into you.
I stopped dating people that didn't like me that were just using me for sex or prestige.
One of those annoying smug marrieds now. Life is hard. He's not perfect. Our firstborn has a disability. But I am glad I have DH to help me through it.
Do read hjntiy. It changed my outlook and life.

With men being the demons here and with little hope of the kind of relationships that women want with man as it seems to be actually impossible.

What is the next logic move? just keeping it to 1 night stands??

Women avoid the disappointment and men avoid the commitment. Is that the win win of the future?

[quote DedlyMedally]@TonMoulin
the way you look at men as basically animals (as well all are) only driven by sex and struggling to control their urges is frightening.

If you find the idea that people who are not you may have different priorities and wants in life frightening, I'm not sure what to tell you.
You must have lived a fairly privileged life.[/quote]
Yawn.

That's not what I meant and you know it!

@TonMoulin
You read this:
*Men and women in relationships often want different things. Men more often want lots of sex, so if they're the kind of individual that is prone to sulking that's what they'll sulk about it. Women often want all sorts of other things, and those that are prone to sulking sulk about those.

One of the least helpful aspects of this topic is that women often have a clever way of portraying men's pursuit of their wants as meaning they're horrible selfish antisocial monsters, while disguising women's pursuit of their own wants as just "normal", "mature" behaviour "for the good of the family" etc. So clever that they believe it themselves and then can't understand why men can't ascend to their level.*

And your conclusion was the paragraph that I quoted. So yes, I did actually think that was what you meant. Apologies if I was mistaken.

Men/people in general don’t respect people who are dependent on them

Agreed

I really do think that the widespread watching of porn is seriously undermining men's expectations of their partners, and undermining the importance of sound loving relationship as a basis for sexual activity

100%

@Sunstoner

With men being the demons here and with little hope of the kind of relationships that women want with man as it seems to be actually impossible.

What is the next logic move? just keeping it to 1 night stands??

Women avoid the disappointment and men avoid the commitment. Is that the win win of the future?

That's a good question Sun

As an individual, Id miss the closeness and relationhsip can bring. The cuddles and having someone in the house/loneliness.
But would I trade that for been treated wo respect? Not anymore.

but then I am 50+, Ive had children and Ive made wo sex/cuddles/intimacy for so long now that I can happily contemplate that for the rest of my life. Or maybe in a being together apart (as in each having your own house, financ and life but being together for the good bits??)

If I was 30yo, I think my position would be different.

As a society, I would hope that women having more independence and keeping teir job when they have children etc... (already a big difference from when my dcs were little and being a SAHM when they were at school was sen as the norm and the best for children), this will change the balance power wise.
The question of whether this wll be enough (see the influence of porn, SM etc etc) remains to be seen tbh. Because that sort of change can be started y women but it wont happen if MEN are refusing to move on.

@Sunstoner I think the solution is right in front of us but many factors prevent us from reaching out and taking it.

There are many for whom marriage and monogamy will work. But for many women it doesn't.
Women also have a role to play in eschewing the notion that having a man is an achievement.
I'm sure we've all heard the slur " she can't even get/keep a man" often uttered by women in awful relationships themselves

If we considered the emotional wear and tear we endure being always kept on our toes, checking phones etc it's draining and takes years off.
The answer is to forget societal norms, open our minds and prioritize ourselves above everyone else.
If men come they come but set tough boundaries and keep them at all costs.