No Contact Support thread - anyone interested?

[52andblue]

Anyone want to join me?
(I'm currently on Day 6)

I won't go into huge details but I am trying to maintain NC with a narcissist (diagnosed, amongst other dx...) who has been in my life on and off for 30 years and mirrors a Narc relationship with my Mother. I've all the 'intellectual understanding' of it, but find NC hard.

@ibelieveinmirrorballs Yup there is.

But the opportunity is such that I'd be daft not to go for it and it does seem to be perfect timing. I don't have to take it if I get offered it which is unlikely.

@52andblue have I just read his response right? It sounds as if he is saying “I can only have a relationship with you if it is physical”. What??
At least he is honest and I get he has MH issues but again, what??
He’s made it all clear. As long as sex is on offer you stand a chance of him deigning to give you his presence or contact. He’s extraordinarily selfish and thoroughly toxic. He’s trying to control you and reduce your self esteem to rock bottom. “I have no interest in you as a person, no interest in how you are. You fulfil needs. My needs. If you can’t fulfil those needs then you are useless to me.”
I know how hard it is to struggle with self esteem issues. He is making it twenty times harder for you. It’s like he confirms the low value statements you make about yourself in your darkest thoughts when you feel really low about yourself. “See? This is who I am. I’m not worth any more than this. This is how I deserve to be treated.” I’ve struggled similarly and when bad things happen to me if I don’t monitor my thoughts I can kind of think it must have somehow been my fault, that actually it’s a punishment for being shit in some way or for cocking up. For never being “good enough”. We are all ‘good enough’ and that is all anybody has to be. Not good or perfect or brilliant, just good enough. You are.

I had a brush with a very similar guy. Years ago when “Friends Reunited” started, I got an email out of the blue from a guy I had a very intense (but very unhealthy) relationship with at uni. He was very flattering from the get go (twenty years later, both married with kids) and it became clear within a couple of weeks that the reminiscing was being twisted to include bedroom reminiscences and the fantasies he’d had about me over the years. I brushed it off and ignored the flirting, but he spelled it out eventually that he was after an affair. I made it clear that I was very much married and was prepared to be friends and stick to uni banter and life in general but nothing more. He more or less said immediately (dressed it up a bit but barely) that if we weren’t going to have sex it wasn’t worth it! He vanished. I had enjoyed the flattery but the bloody cheek that he thought he could use me like that. 😡 He’d only ever intended to get in touch because it might mean sex. Not because he was thinking about me or cared about me, despite what he said about loving me. Yes, twenty years later out of the blue he apparently still loved me. Manipulative arsehole. 😡

@52andblue don’t listen to his crap. He doesn’t deserve you or the thoughts you waste on him. You know what you have to do. Take care X

Hi @Thewookiemustgo

I see it slightly differently (but the end conclusion is the same)

I think he is saying: I can't cope with much contact between us if we are unable to be together 'properly' (for him that would mean spending our nights together). That is not possible (from either end) and so he finds it difficult (he is dx BiPolar so he struggles with steady interaction at the best of times and it's defo not just with me).

BUT...

Because of my background, (CSA, which he knows all about but considers I should 'not bleat on about'!) It is really bad for me to be on the receiving end of intermittent validation which is sex /sex-language based. I feel like I can 'handle' it but it must be pulling me down too?

So, whether he can 'help it' or not contact with him can never be 'good' for me. I feel really really low today. thanks for your post x

@52andblue I’m so sorry you suffered so badly in your childhood.
I think you’re right with what you say about the effect on you of any kind of ‘sexual validation’ based communication from him. No matter how strong you feel, some of it probably does get through at some level. In my job before I retired, on occasions I worked with victims of CSA and the aftermath. I’ve seen the devastation CSA causes. You survived and having survived that, you’ll certainly survive this. But you deserve to live, not just survive.
If his responses are coloured by his MH issues, then it must be especially hard to work out what is directly caused by these issues, and which parts are actually purely self-centred and narcissistic.
In any case, his issues and the way he communicates with you must have an impact on you. Totally understandable, but for your own sake you must protect yourself from it and ask yourself what this relationship actually does for you. It’s easier to see what it’s doing to you, not what it does for you.
Try to find out what actually motivates you to want this contact, knowing what you know about him and the way his contact affects you. Once you can boil everything down and answer the question “(if he disappeared completely) What am I afraid of?” you will know.
You know I honestly think you deserve better and I hope you find it. X

@Thewookiemustgo

Thank you for this further message. When you first posted I was slightly worried that you might be coming onto the thread to 'tell off' those who were in 'affair' relationships, (some of us are, some aren't I think?). But I can see that all your posts have offered useful insights and I feel they really add to the thread in general and your last few to me have caused me to pause and reflect in a helpful way too, thanks.

Re my own circs. Ironically, I have also worked with survivors of CSA & know that its insidious effects can need monitoring longterm if they are not to cause further damage years after the initial events.
My NC didn't know much of my background the first time we were together but I told him lots more this time early on and he was quite dismissive. He is of the age and background where these things are simply not discussed so I cut him lots of slack re that but some of his comments have been astonishingly awful. I could give lots of egs but I won't as potentially identifying (unlikely but you never know) but also I am really ashamed that I have continued to be intimate either physically or emotionally with someone who has treated me this way.

'What am I afraid of?' if I send him to the outer darkness? Well I will miss his company (we talk a lot about all kinds of things) but he has not been the 'family friend' I had hoped he could become (I initially re-made contact with him to Tutor my son in his specialist subject, but he has let him down badly. That was what changed my 'all accepting' approach to him, I could tolerate him treating me badly but not my son, and the Narc in him didn't like it!) But I wonder if it is deeper than this too. I think it's the closest dynamic I've ever had to my old abuse pattern as a child so that is why it is so hard to get away from.

Oooof. Much more work to do. But I actually have to stay NC or I will keep tripping myself up and the work is really important.

Hi I've been NC with family for 10 years now. I remember the early days being so hard but the light is at the end of the tunnel! Here for support if anyone needs reminding it does get better xx

@52andblue thank you. I’m not here to tell off anyone. I’ve had enough of that chucked in my direction. I’ve been told off as ‘pathetic’ and as having ‘lowered standards’ and having ‘an agenda’ by people on another thread. I’d been completely honest about my situation. Silly me! They chucked my husband’s affair at me like it was some kind of weapon and value statement about me. My subsequent decisions after his affair lowered me further, it seems. They even knew the truth about his real feelings for me and were kind enough to tell me. Woman-shaming is already alive and well on MN without my help!
My ‘agenda’ is to learn and to help if I can. That is all. I get pms from people who want to chat and listen, who want to ask or share things they daren’t say on their own thread for fear of being shamed or attacked. How awful is that? MN’s purpose and the OP’s purpose for starting a thread driven underground. Ugh.

I can only speak from my viewpoint and seeing a different perspective is helpful in making sense of what happened to me, hopefully making me a more understanding person.

MH work is the hardest work we have to do, I’ve had to do a shitload myself (self esteem issues, perfectionism, imposter syndrome.... urghhhhh) and I’m still a work in progress.
You clearly have great emotional intelligence and are brilliant at spotting where to draw the line with him.

The work you do on your mental health will be the greatest gift you ever give yourself and staying NC will preserve the hard-won ground you’ve gained. Keep going Blue. And keep going everyone else here, who needs to stay NC for whatever reason. It’s a really hard thing to do.
I really ought to go non-contact with a big Lindt bunny that has my name on it but I’m pretty sure that’s never going to happen .... X

@Thewookiemustgo Your comments are wise and insightful, and mn needs posters like you who offer a viewpoint of someone who chose to stay.
I am sorry to hear about your treatment from posters who condemn your position. Please don't let that put you off from posting.

@Ruminating2020 that’s very kind, thank you.
I was kicking myself though. I’d broken my Golden social media rule of never getting riled by anything. 🙈 A poster in the thread had been constantly harrying the poor OP by cut and pasting her words with counter comments stating the bleeding obvious. It was just rubbing salt into wounds and could serve no other purpose. Well over 50% of the thread was this person arguing so I should have known better. The OP had clearly had enough so I’m afraid I got a bit sarky and told the poster that the OP had already said she was being treated on the thread as if she was stupid and that repeatedly pointing out stuff she was already aware of wasn’t helping. Big mistake. I didn’t rise to any of what followed but blimey one woman was vile. Hey ho. The thrills snd spills of MN. 😂
I really appreciate your lovely words, it restores your faith in people. X

@Thewookiemustgo
Oh, I really hope I was clear in my previous post that I realised you were not here to tell anyone off and that I appreciate your posts? x

I am sorry if you have felt hounded on other threads.
Certainly threads can 'turn' quite quickly and sometimes very unkindly on SM and MN is no exception to that sadly.

I guess we can all only represent an imperfect picture of our situations but it is wrong to call anyone 'pathetic' for choices they have decided to make as we can never really understand anyone else's situation they way they can and everyones choices are valid.

You are correct also that MH work is the hardest work we will ever do.
I can 'draw the line' sometimes, but sticking to it is harder. I have to work out why and how to overcome that. I will get there, eventually.

Let's ALL keep posting here and keep supporting each other xxx

@52andblue no, I didn’t think you thought that. You have been nothing but kind. X

For any one who's at the start of their journey, I can honestly say keep going. My original message was short as I was nearly with my 11 month old but didn't want to lose the thread.

It took me 6 months of counselling to even decide NC was the way forward for me within those 6 months I tried numerous times to repair a relationship with my grandmother who told lies and twisted stories after my parents death. Mentally I reached the point of I need to stop or she will make me poorly to a point I don't know if I can return from. After I went NC she told family members it's me or her, hired a solicitor to take me to court to contest the will and upped the anti on her vicious rumours but staying strong with support it got fewer and less in between. I can honestly say I feel nothing towards her any more, if people ask me about her I no longer feel any emotion it's just another part of my past. She does crop up now again and again, my uncle felt the need to call me to say she had found out about my pregnancy and that he thinks she will want contact with me knowing that she will have a great grandson and I told him at the time my focus is having a healthy pregnancy. I also recieved a card from her when little man was born which is concerning she has my address but there has been nothing further since, I don't feel a need to reply.

He just called. I ignored it.
One day at a time. (It feels like I imagine 'cold turkey' would)
(I've considered 'blocking' but I feel it will be easier to know that the last contact was from him to me so I'm going this route - wish me luck!)

@Marshy86 I am sorry you've had such a difficult time with your grandmother (and her manipulations re the rest of the family). I too have had a very difficult relationship with my mother (long periods of NC) and I know that my struggles with that formed the foundation for my struggles with my NC man.
Thank you for your helpful post. I hope that you continue to enjoy time with your baby (so precious and fleeting!) without your energy being stolen by family dramas. Stay strong and thank you for posting x

Sending strength and luck @52andblue! It is very hard and I know exactly what you mean re. wanting the last contact to have been from them.

There will come a time when you really do not want to engage in any way with this person, and that time comes soonest without any contact at all - but I know you know that

I know my situation is different because my NC endeavours are more about helping me heal and move on from what was a fairly normal relationship, and I would be happy to be friends with mine at some point in the future, but only if I'm completely healed and over it and it's in my interest to do so. Even in that scenario, I'm not sure it's possible.

@52andblue Well done for ignoring.
Not blocking to convince yourself you can resist the hoover is a mistake though, if you want to be truly free of the narcissist. Since you now have confirmation that the last contact was from him, can you block? Otherwise it will just linger on and on and it's no way to live. You really don't need anything from this person.

@52andblue well done, that was hard. Keep going! X

thank you @ibelieveinmirrorballs
I know what you mean about wondering if a friendship is possible right down the line when you are fully healed. I think in my case its not. partly because he has said it himself (he 'can't cope with me unless he has all of me' as it were) and partly because I know I would struggle just to be friends with him (even though there is a lot about him I don't even like much!) as the patterning is too deep and has gone on too long)

thank you @Ruminating2020
yes, you are quite right. I might let him call once more though (it won't be for at least a week as he can sulk if I don't answer immediately at any time of day or night for any reason). I don't mean to seem childish it is more about me not wondering if he is calling if I've blocked him. It's easier for me to know. But that was where I was at a few weeks back before I gave in and answered before and within 2 calls he'd started messing with my head so I think you are right after all!

Why is it important to you whether he calls you or not @52andblue? Do you need him to validate you? Don't rely on him to do that because they know this about you and they exploit it by playing these mind games with you. For your own sanity, as well as your emotional being, this person needs to e expunged from you life.

If you block him completely and remove his number, then there is no temptation to respond when he calls. Don't rely on your resolve, that only comes when you have the space and time to evaluate your strengths and weaknesses.

@52andblue how are you today? Well done for not answering.
I can understand not being ready to block,but its the only way longer term to move on.
I went through months of the blocking/unblocking, from both sides. Its draining and hurtful. I blocked for the final time first. I have deleted his number. Even though he was blocked, I kept checking on WhatsApp if his picture would reappear indicating he had unblocked me again. I noticed he has blocked me on Strava. I've blocked him too.
I'm struggling getting over how he sees me. The names he called me and it seems that I'll probably be thought of the person he was with who was a nut job.
I've made some positive steps towards self care and am starting a diet today.
@ibelieveinmirrorballs, I think you are doing amazingly. I have also bought The Joy of being single, although waiting for my new glasses as the writing is so small!
my fear is he is with someone else already, or back on OLD. He puts himself out there for sure, whilst I'm still suffering and processing and trying to build self esteem. I hope he reflects how badly he has treat me, but somehow I doubt he will?

Hello @Breakingupbadly72. Thanks for saying that. You wouldn't have said that if you'd seen me handle my previous break up - as the way it was handled by the other person made all the difference. Last time, I was lied to and then basically ghosted, only to find him again online as though nothing had happened. I desperately sought answers and got nothing.

We have no control over how others see us. Particularly in relation to romantic relationships, where his view of you may be in line with the way he views and treats ALL women, which in turn probably stems from a dysfunctional childhood or whatever. If you struggled to let go of him and now worry that your behaviour makes you look 'unhinged', I can tell you that my behaviour this time around is that of a normal person, but last time was that of someone who was trying to get over a toxic ending with a cowardly messed up man, and my behaviour was completely different. In other words, I have not changed but the relationship I'm recovering from is different and that has enabled me to behave in a more rational way.

Every time you catch yourself thinking about him, actively try to tell yourself "NO, I'm ruminating and it's pointless" and force yourself to have a thought which is about you and your life and your future.

In terms of blocking, I've opted for blocking on all social media (the LinkedIn was hard as I somewhat pathetically wanted him to see my new job announcement) and number deleted on WhatsApp but not blocked, with the chat exported to my computer.

The way we left our conversation the other day was peaceful and friendly but I don't think he'll get in touch with me for a long while as he recognised that he has hurt me and it's not appropriate for him to be bouncing into my inbox. I'm telling myself in a few months time I'll have a think about making contact but am resolute that a friendship won't work and there's nothing more to say. (This is the first time in my life I have been able to be rational..!)

@ibelieveinmirrorballs, I'm sure he will find out in a round about way about you job and its huge strength to you that you don't need to 'advertise it', massive congratulations. I didn't get the job I went for
Mine has a new job coming up, a fresh start. He had a fresh start after his previous ex in new job. He certainly doesn't stand still. I in some ways admire this about him, but he is unavailable, how can you love someone who is unavailable?

I have behaved irrationally before after breakups but managed to be calm (on the outside) with this one, at times o have felt destroyed and not been able to function.

So this is progress in itself. We are learning, right? We have to be so careful giving our heart away.

It's all a learning process. And yes so important not to ignore red flags at the start and do that thing where you ignore x,y, and z because they seem nice, make you laugh, are showering you with attention, etc. Mine was also clearly not really emotionally available but I carried on regardless

Catherine Gray mentions an old Irish saying in her book "don't ask someone to borrow their tractor, if they don't own a tractor" - in other words, there is literally no point asking someone who is emotionally unavailable to be emotionally available for YOU. Or asking someone for commitment who doesn't want to be committed. It's simple but takes away that fear that it's personal somehow. Let me know how you get on with her book - I loved it.

Good morning.

@Ruminating2020
@Breakingupbadly72
I was reading a good article at 6.30am about the differences between love and friendship (the 'Brain Pickings' site has some good stuff). The phone rang and it was Him and I ignored it. He has form for mis-dialling without his specs and he would never lower himself to leave an answerphone message but I think after yesterday's call it was deliberate. However, it doesn't matter in the long term, I won't reply.

Neither he or I really 'do' SM. We both have static FB accounts and Messenger I suppose but its mostly email and post (we are old!)
As he has my new address I can't see the point of 'blocking him'. There is definitely a part of me that needs to observe him trying to contact me as I 'disappear' on him. I will think more what that's about!
But yes if I crack and pick up a call you can defo all remind me that you 'told me so' and you would be correct to do so x

@ibelieveinmirrorballs

I think your second para is really important. We respond to the dynamic we are presented with. I know that my NC has had 3 signif rships (inc me) and he has behaved the same way to all 3 of us (over a 40 yr timespan too, he's consistent in his inconsistencies). So, it really isn't me it's his dynamic which is partly to do with childhood experiences etc as it is with many of us. I think the more deceitful the presentation of the other person the more distress we can feel when the 'real truth' emerges and that can lead to some 'undignified' behavior but usually only because we are desperately trying to gain the truth. Our responses to each relationship will vary as each pairing is unique but we can learn to protect ourselves better and to recognise the red flags quicker. In hindsight my NC told me exactly who he was 4 years ago. I should have listened better.

@breakingupbadly has it - we have to be so careful giving our hearts away!

Must go parent - love to all, hope to be back later xxx

@52andblue Well done for ignoring again.
Have you had counselling or therapy about your relationship with this man? I wonder whether they could help you recognise why you need to observe him trying to contact you while you are trying to keep him away.

I personally think it is unhealthy and still very much like the push pull dynamics of a toxic relationship. If he doesn't contact you for an extended period will you be pining for him to do so or reach out to him? The cycle will get worse and you will be back on square one again. That's the danger if you don't block him.

@Breakingupbadly72
Sorry you didn't get the job. I hope something better comes up soon. Well done on your healing progress.