Married to someone with Aspergers: support thread 5

[Bluebellforest1]

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I’m glad that there has been some effort @AspergersWife from your counseling, I hope that this isn’t the only time that he comes home early. Sympathies for the vaccine appointment - could have written that myself. Before the pandemic, I realised that living far away from my friends/family, with marriage in tatters, career on hold to look after DS with high needs - that I had to do something. I joined a drama group on a weekday evening at 8pm start. DH made a huge fuss and was late so much I had to quit. I know full well he is very high level and as such, keeps his own hours. Takes long lunch breaks. Clocks off 6pm two evenings a week for his sports. He’s WFH during the pandemic but it’s just the same. We have a large home - he’s converted a room to an office and is in there from when he gets up until 8.30pm, when he pops in to see DS.

@RainyMayDay

So interesting to hear other people’s experiences. With regards to ‘crushes’ my DH came home one day and told me how a female colleague had been distressed at work because her husband had been messaging other women and was spending time with them instead of her. He came home absolutely incensed that a man could do this to his colleague and called him names saying what a ‘poor excuse for a husband’ this man was.

I said ‘But this is what you do isn’t it? Isn’t he just doing the same as you do?’

He couldn’t see the similarity at all. He felt he was justified in his behaviour but his colleague’s husband was absolutely not. And it’s that I struggle with, that he can easily excuse his poor behaviour and dismiss my experience but show outrage when his colleague is experiencing the same.

It made me feel that he seems to think I deserve it.

I feel for all of you experiencing this kind of behaviour and being labelled unreasonable for feeling what anyone would feel in these circumstances.

if it's anything like my ex-H, he -cannot- see the cognitive dissonance. He cannot understand that his behaviour is the same as something he would disapprove of in someone else. He genuinely does not realise that his behaviour is the same. He can't make that leap.

I think it's a Theory of Mind problem myself

It's either live with it, ask him to go to specialist counselling to help him intellectually understand the problem, or get out. Going to speciallist counselling will only work if -he- wants to, and if he is willing to work hard. The trouble is when you're living with someone with this trait, it's all too easy to blame yourself and it's not about blame. It's about the fundamental incompatability of needs.

(my ex wasn't about other women but exactly the same impossible trait existed and caused a lot of damage).

@RainyMayDay I hear you about the holidays and meals out. I gave up eventually. I also had mutual friends tell me how much happier he seemed when I wasn’t there! Which was particularly painful as I was pregnant at the time. DH doesn’t outright tell me he hates it, but ‘infers’ a lot in a sideways way that I almost find worse. One of the last times we went anywhere was a weekend away with my friends at a cottage. I thought DH would like it, as these friends shared similar interests and he admires one of them a lot. And even though I say it myself, they are all a really easy bunch to be with, no stress, no enforced anything. We did loads of our thing and I made sure DH was able to do what he wanted. Yet the whole time he either hardly engaged or showed off how good he was with the kids / what he knew in conversation. I was just grateful he came as I’d had to go by myself & DS all of the other times. However when we left I said it had been really nice and that I was really pleased to have him with me, and that DS had really benefited too having both of us for a change. DH just sighed and said ‘yes well you would like it, but they aren’t really my friends, are they?’ I was gutted. That was the last time we went anywhere together.

@Ijsbear I agree, there is a way of thinking that once it starts in a marriage, it’s doomed. DH will often talk with outrage too about how badly other men treat their women. He feels that he is a really good partner. He often tells me that I must tell my friends how much housework he does, to make them jealous. Even though my friends have made their own minds up that he doesn’t treat me well. I think it was a year or so ago that my marriage finally ended, yet we still Iive together. So for me I know that there is no saving us now. Part of coming on these threads is to air my experiences so that I can be stronger moving forward on my own.

I have made a conscious choice that I won’t leave the home until it’s a good time for DSs schooling. I need to move back to my own area for work, my sanity and support, which is a long way from here. It’s a bit involved but an interim move apart in the same area would be detrimental for DS and for me - and DH is quite happy with things staying the same for a bit. I’d like him to move out but that’s never going to happen. So if I can make a bit more sense of why my marriage broke down, and at the same time help DS too, then reading other’s stories without castigating DH really helps. I know I need to learn a lot too and look at my role in all of it.

@Blossominspring2021 you sound very balanced. That's sort of where I was at when my DD was only 6 months (she's nearly 5 now). Every time I thought I'd accepted my decision, I second guessed myself and continued to try.

Then I'd decided again before the Christmas lockdown. It was clear H could never be what I needed, he basically washed his hands of us. Then he moved out over summer, sank into depression, and begged to come home and put in more effort than I'd seen in years.

In autumn I had just been offered a job and had made the decision to get my own income, save up and prepare myself to leave over a period of 1-2 years when the kids were 8 and 6ish. Then we went into another lockdown and I couldn't take the job as I had the kids 24/7. H of course verbally supported me, as the image of the 'perfect husband', but would actually do sweet FA to help with childcare and facilitate my potential new hours.

A couple of months ago we got DS asd diagnosis through. I'd planned to stay til the kids were a bit older So they'd be better able to fend for themselves during H's access potential days/weekends. Now I know that having 2 homes would be detrimental to DS and he'll always needs extra support, no matter how old he gets, so I feel awful planning this. But I know he thrives on routine though so I'm hopeful in time he'd cope. But for the sake of stability and security for him and our DD I will try the new counsellor and try to shrug off the 'don't care' attitude.

@AspergersWife Think you are right to at least approach the counselling with an open mind especially if you have to continue to live with your DH. You may not achieve the marriage you would have wanted but you might at least achieve a relationship you can live with and one that brings you some positives. After years of probably very few positives, having some positives may be enough to tide you over especially if you can negotiate some things for yourself - hobbies, time with friends - out of it. I hope you are able to do this despite all your responsibilities

@AspergersWife my dd is also ASD. Adjusting to mum and dad living apart, two houses, different routine took longer than it would for a NT child, but it's not impossible, and was worth it.

@Daftasabroom

I have read some of your posts on this and previous threads. I found them fascinating because my DW (who has ASC) does so many similar things to yours.

I wondered how old your DCs were. Because when ours were young we went through a rough patch that lasted years. I am still exhausted from it. She did many things that really hurt me. But things eventually improved. That was partly due to circumstances but also due to things that I did as well.

It has been tough and I'm always a bit lonely but I have two things on my side, the first thing being that my DW loves me fiercely and I do need that. The second is that she 'owns' her ASC and understands what it means.

I make allowances for it, and so does she, and things - mostly - works.

Also she's been treated really cruelly in the past by people she though were her friends, and she's had trouble holding down jobs. I've silently promised that I will do everything I can not to let her down like that.

@TomPinch that sounds like an old Chinese curse "may you wife be fascinating"! TBH you're not the first person who has said that.

Kids are 15 and 18 now, DS1 ASD, DS2 NT.

DW isn't diagnosed and flatly refuses to counternance the idea. It has only really been as DS1, diagnosed age 6, has grown up that the similarities have become quite so obvious. I think that it is fantastic the you DW owns her ASD I think this is a key factor for anyone with any kind of condition. (To anyone reading this thinking about seeking a diagnosis please take note of what Tom has said it really is the secret.)

One of DWs biggest issues which I haven't really mentioned much here is her Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA) she really has trouble completing so many tasks. Combine that with Passive Agression and deflection and life can get pretty tricky at times.

She was being lovely and charming lastnight but only ever skin deep, I just wish I had the key to unlock what lies beneath may not be there.

Thank you everyone for reading and posting in reply to my epic posts the other day. I appreciate it. I'm reading back through the thread and previous ones and finding it helpful.

I feel a bit guilty because I keep thinking my situation isn't that bad but then there are lots of echoes with what you've all experienced too. A lot of DH's behaviour comes down to anxiety I know that.

He was very nice the day after spot gate! Lots of putting his arms round me or trying to, trying to kiss me but not in a natural way at all - quite performative really. I was just quiet and a bit withdrawn I suppose, just trying to work out how I felt about it all. He repeatedly asked me 'what's up' but when I said I'm just feeling sad and fed up after yesterday and just in general really his response was 'I'm sorry you're not feeling well' which isn't what I said at all. Then when i said I'm not unwell, our argument upset me, what you said hurt me and I'm feeling quite crap about myself and unattractive in general, and very distanced from you' he was just back to how the baby needs to sleep in the cot, and how he's going to lower the cot at the weekend so it's safe for her to go in now she can stand up. I just said fine, it will make no difference and it's not really about sharing a bed anymore - I'm not sure I want to.

Another thing about DH is that he can really struggle with language too. He very often says the literal opposite of what he means to say- so when talking about the cot he was saying he would higher it but meant lower. I know we all do that from time to time but this is far more often than I think most people experience. Sometimes he's like a non native speaker - he misses nuance and implications a lot - he kept saying DD was playing with herself when he meant BY herself for example - I did say you have to stop saying it like that it sounds really wrong and he will get cross then and be all 'ALRIGHT you knew what I meant' - which true and in most cases it doesn't matter but I wouldn't want him saying that to anyone else. Its particularly bad when he's tired sometimes he can be almost incomprehensible. Recently it was 'I don't remember these biscuits being as nice as they used to be do you?' And when I couldn't answer because i wasn't sure if he was saying they were nicer than he remembered or not as nice, and asked him to clarify, he got in more of a muddle then got cross. Totally not apparent to anyone else I think you'd have to live with him to see it but once the guard is down its really noticeable. Does that ring a bell for anyone else?

@IfIFell DW is notorious for saying something different to what she means and misinterpreting what other people say. I'm not sure in her case it is language though - it sounds like your DH might be a touch dyslexic, I am and I often change the order of words round etc.

Yes @IfIFell that all sounds familiar. It's like huge chunks of narrative are missing from H's words too. Decisions he's made alone and not told me, but he somehow still expects me to know. Equally a lot of the time he'll use words incorrectly and expect me to understand him which drives me mad, because he details my valid points with irrelevant discussions about what his word choice means, or to pick mine apart. He'll also use a very dry/sarcastic or monotone voice with the kids (DD NT and DS asd) and not understand why they are confused.

We had some trouble lately over his female gaming friend as he said he'd been 'inappropriate' with her. Now to me, that meant sexually inappropriate eg flirting, sexting or whatever. After a few days 'discussion' trying to get to the bottom of it, it turned out he meant 'rude' - so he'd accidentally loudly burped over the mic and she and the blokes playing in the group chat had all heard. So I'm to understand from his description of 'inappropriate behaviour' that it was actually perfectly innocent, but he refuses to see that telling your wife you've been inappropriate online with another woman has many suspicious connotations! H doesn't get that, and it's always apparently my fault that I have feelings about such mistakes that he makes. Exhausting. It's like constant mind games.

@RainyMayDay the counsellor said very much what you've said. I was honest with her and expressed that at this point I could very easily say 'leave' rather than 'keep trying'. She said in that case she'd support us through a break up if we were going that way. Looking at the financial side of things it would be very difficult for me as a single parent, but I still think that's infinitely better than a lifetime of a miserable marriage.

typed out a huge post aspergerswife and actually, it comes down to this:

From all you have said of your relationship, I think you will be much happier out and poor, than in and reasonably well off, as long as you aren't caught in a dreadful housing situation.

Being able to breathe is infinitely better than having to squash yourself into a smaller and smaller box to live with someone who doesn't want to change and grow, and who starves you of any sort of real affection.

@Ijsbear

typed out a huge post aspergerswife and actually, it comes down to this:

From all you have said of your relationship, I think you will be much happier out and poor, than in and reasonably well off, as long as you aren't caught in a dreadful housing situation.

Being able to breathe is infinitely better than having to squash yourself into a smaller and smaller box to live with someone who doesn't want to change and grow, and who starves you of any sort of real affection.

Agree with this @AspergersWife - hopefully the counselling will help whatever you decide to do.

Saying he'd been inappropriate- I can picture DH using the same phrasing in that context. A lot of the times we've argued (bickered more accurately I guess, despite what I've posted we don't have many big arguments though lots more since we had a baby) it's been him saying something that sounds to me really wrong or upsetting or just so far short of what I need to hear - then he'll insist he didn't mean it or didn't mean to say it. I get cross and insist that words have meanings and if he didn't mean X and actually meant Y then why didn't he say Y? It definitely helps to hear others' have similar experiences, I feel less like I'm going mad.

@Daftasabroom that's interesting thank you. I hadn't considered dyslexia.

then he'll insist he didn't mean it or didn't mean to say it

... or ' he didn't say it at all, I had misunderstood him'. This was my experience throughout the marriage.

@Daftasabroom

What I think helped (me anyway) was that DW has had, throughout her life, difficulties reading social situations and, because she likes to be friendly towards people, has had an absolutely miserable time. Because she's been bitten again and again she worked out that something was wrong, but didn't know what. When she's pushed me to the limit I try to remember this because it's been horrible for her at times.

She still misreads situations, doesn't understand why and, won't always accept the explanation. But she trusts me, which is a great help and a real complement.

I've also worked out how to explain things to her. It took me a lot of time and a degree of luck too. I liken it to pushing a series of buttons to get the right result.

I've never heard of PDA but I recognise that in my DW too. To complete certain tasks she needs to have no distractions at all, and will concentrate on just one thing and take ages over it. It got easier for me once I'd accepted that she was actually doing her best.

And sometimes I've just had to be really tough. About the ages of the kids: I can completely see your frustrations there. DW lost a job and for two years tried running her own business. It had to be two years because "most businesses ast two years". It made next to nothing in that time because she did no marketing. What she did make she kept to herself even though my salary went to the joint account. She also insisted on spending a lot of money from the joint account on a hobby that the household simply couldn't afford. Eventually I worked out a budget, opened my own account, had my salary paid into it and gave her a remittance that left me enough to pay the bills. Two months later she got a job. No doubt a lot of Mumsnetters would see this as abusive but it worked. A dangerous strategy though.

@IfIFell glad I posted if it's useful! I don't want to make anyone feel worse by moaning on, yet I feel like it's bursting out of me. it is so helpful to hear other partners' experiences here. It makes me feel this huge revelation - it's not me! I'm not going insane!

We spoke a little more last night about our issues. H is acting very loving to me. He very genuinely and honestly told me his always compliments the woman friend on her gameplay and asked if he should stop doing that. I said not as such, but he needed to work on complimenting me, building our connection rather than focussing that energy elsewhere. He said he always thanks me for doing the washing/cleaning etc. Firstly no he doesn't show appreciation at all, (another missing narrative) but even if he did, it's not enough. I tried to explain that those are things I do and not the person I am, but it was way beyond his understanding. And thanking someone for washing your pants is not that same as appreciating their talent/skill at something. I wish he could see that ignoring me (apart from my housewifely actions apparently ) is killing the love I had. But it's as if marriage/wife is now ticked off his list and he doesn't need to do anything more to nurture the relationship. It's an item on a checklist, an achievement, and now onto the next thing.

He said if we do split 'we'll be best friends won't we?' Asked very genuinely. It sort of broke my heart thinking about it later, but in the moment I just had to laugh. I was so surprised I didn't bother to tamper my words like I usually do, I honestly blurted out 'my problem with you is that you don't talk to me, we aren't connected, have nothing in common, and you don't want to spend any time with me. Why would I have a best friend like that?!' He just stared at me. Then after a bit said 'we'll have to make arrangements for when I could come round to have tea with the kids and do the recycling and all the jobs around the house.' Again I was so taken aback I burst out laughing. He's done the recycling about 3 times this year, his jobs in the house (eg dishwasher, bins) get neglected so I just do them because they need to be done. And I can count on one hand the times he's had tea with the kids since before lockdowns began. They eat earlier on weeknights and at weekends he's always busy with something, so we never sit down for a family meal, he has no time for us. It's like he's romanticised 'The Break Up' and it bears no reality to our actual lives, like he's some kind of fantasy dad. He could do the bloody house jobs now! He could eat tea with the kids now! I've been begging him to be more involved with the kids, to do his jobs without me constantly reminding him. Why does it have to be a break up that prompts him to suddenly want to do those things? Just do them now and I might not want to break up the marriage!

Just found this thread. I have ASD and I'm female. Female presentation does tend to be different. I mask a lot and fit in with work, some friends etc. But after doing 12 hour shifts and all the mental load I wanted to go to bed in silence work nights and I also have severe chronic illness and physical disability so was in a lot of main.

The ASD but still arsehole men behaviour here sounds like my ex! That's very interesting as he crushed me. The ignoring me, gaming, leaving it all to be despite my physical disability. I thought he was a just a dick like a lot of men on here seem to be even in the non asd thread. Fascinating! The gaming without headphones to 3am when I get up at 5 drove me batty and it disturbed the neighbours. He would not stop or wear headphones. Absolute wanker.

The false narrative thing is interesting - one of DH’s ‘jokes’ is to say ‘I remember when ....’ and make up a story that didn’t happen eg ‘I remember when I first suggested going on holiday to x place, you didn’t want to, you said it would be boring, but I persuaded you and now you want to go back haha’. When it was a holiday destination I suggested. He very much knows this isn’t true though and is done somewhat tongue in cheek (or so I assume) to start with anyway, but over time it gets repeated that much that it does sort of start to become true for him. It’s not the same as what others are describing here, not quite, but it’s similar in that his mind works also that lines. His ‘joke’ is that a different situation happened, one in which he was the good guy and was ‘right’ and I was wrong, even in situations where there’s no need for us to be in competition. In fact I say frequently that we’re not on opposite sides, he doesn’t have to be constantly trying to get ‘one up’ on me. And then of course he starts to believe what started out as joking, or at least he very much enjoys ‘living’ in that version of events.

@Daftasabroom the demand avoidance is key as it’s a very strong trait if it’s there. DS has this in extreme, and I believe so does DH. However now I’ve lived with it for a bit, I can see that both DS and DH will do many things however they have to feel that it is within their control and feel motivated to do. Much of our motivation, if we think about it, is strongest in the short term, in immediate benefit for us. Hence it partially explains why DH is motivated to lunch with other attractive women - hey if I was otherwise inclined dining with attractive guys would be quite ego boosting for me too. Whereas spending time with my friends, has zero motivation as it is zero immediate benefit to DH.

@iGetPipAndWork The gaming without headphones to 3am yes this! He saw it an affront to his personal freedom as an adult when I asked him to wear headphones. But guess who got up early for DS... me!

@IfIFell I found this very difficult too, the constant competition. Even now, he wants me to do well because it makes him look good, not that he likes to share in my wellbeing. I can’t have conversations about other people doing well as he just encourages me to ‘get one over’ on them - when really I just am incredibly proud of their success. I find it exhausting, the constant competing element.

@Blossominspring2021 19:03

100% yes. Agree with every word. He will often say ‘What’s in it for me?’ if I ask anything. Also has an expectation that if he does something helpful I have to do something in return. Seemingly ignores the fact that in a long term relationship you might calculate kind deeds exchanges over years not 24 hours.

Yesterday he unloaded the dishwasher. Today he asked me whether I was going to do it as he did it yesterday. Got quite put out when I advised him I was on my way to do the grocery shop instead. I do the dishwasher 99% of the time. He does it once and expects instant reciprocation.

@RainyMayDay that is hard work, wanting to know what’s the immediate benefit in the short term. Your DH sounds quite ‘transactional’ immediately which must feel harsh. Most relationships work much ‘easier’ with a generosity of reciprocation and a broad view don’t they?

@Daftasabroom and @IfIFell DS has a lot of trouble speaking, being minimally verbal for many years. DH doesn’t, he’s very articulate but in monologues. I wonder if your partners had language problems when younger? DS has had to learn language piece by piece, unlike most children, so it is not fluent. I wouldn’t have thought it was dyslexia because that is specific to reading - but more a processing of speech and or hearing speech. It must be very frustrating to feel like this. I know I also don’t always speak well on the spot - I can be quite inarticulate and I have have poor listening comprehension. (But good reading comprehension). Having time to relax and not be under pressure whilst speaking is helpful. It’s almost like stuttering - pressure for words to come out = they don’t come out so well. If that makes any sense!