SUPPORT THREAD FOR THE PARTNERS OF ADDICTS

[lemonstartree]

having read all the posts on princesshobnob's thraet It struck me (prob because I am one of them) how may women are living with addicts/abusive men (does one cause the other etc etc!)

thought maybe we could do with our own support thread.

I have recently kicked out my cannabis head husband. It has been hard, but not as hard as livig with his dope smoking and verbal abuse (to me) and physical abuse of the children.

So much of what other women wrote reasonated with me; the wanting another chance; the lying; the erratic behaviour; the blaming me (you) for their problems; the financial mess; the wanting sex when high - when tbh you hate them and have never wanted it less; the messing with your head until you think its YOU with the problem.

I am a bit further on than some of you - its 2 months since my marriage ended,
but my H says he has now stopped smoking cannabis, he has found a job and starts this week and he is NOW thnking hes 'done enough' to be given a second (read 50TH) chance.
I am expecting trouble whan I make it clear that some thngs cannot be repaired however Sorry you are that they are broken....

I really strggle with the illness thing - surely it's all about choice? As I see it my exdp chose to carry on drinking in spite of everything. I really can't believe that the craving for alcohol is stronger than say the craving for cigarettes or any other craving for that matter. I chain smoked for years but gave up - why can't an alcoholic just stop drinking in that way?

Or am I being hopelessly naieve?

I am sorry to hear about your past kokeshi - I hope you can stick around and, for me at least, try to explain what complels an alcoholic to drink.

Kokeshi - I admire you very much for managing to give up drinking. It must have ben very hard.

Ultimately we all want to be serene and calm with our partners choices and our own, but its HARD to get there, and some degree of venting and frustration is part of the process. I dont think anyone belives their partner is an alcoholic/addict by CHOICE; but nevertheless they have responsibility for their actions. eg NOT to seek help/not to admit to the problem.....

We are at different stages and out partners are different too, his thread is for support and as you pointed out anger is part of the way we feel. Anger for ourselves and also for our dc's

Attila posted on several threads of mine almost 2 years ago when I posted under another name, about my husband kicking our small child. What she/he said then seemed very harsh to me then, but every word came true. I could not have avoided what has happenned, because I could not accept the truth at that point, but a small nuggett stuck in my brain........

Everyone who is/has been living with an addict is welcome on this thread to offer each other help - in the many different ways there are to do that

lst x

"I think Atilla has a very black and white view and having no personal experience (unless I'm wrong), seems to me that she/he simplfies the dynamics involved in these relationships".

I have seen it and have seen others families go through alcoholism too. Without exception these women eventually left their menfolk. BTW I'm female.

Perhaps I do have a black and white view (I do tell it how I see it) but am big enough to realise there are shades of grey as well. Kokeshi, I admire you actually because you have been through a hell of a lot and have come out the other side. You have faced your own demons and you made up your own mind to seek help. Many of these men that these women write about on this thread may not get to that point you've reached for all sorts of reasons.

I used the term "outsider" only because I am on the outside looking in to these situations. I don't know any of these people in their daily lives.

The thing about choice...well no I don't think it is towards the end. Alcohol takes over every part of your life unlike an addiction to cigarettes for example.

Now I think this is where people do genuinely have a problem in understanding. What drives on alcoholic to give up, and another to drink themselves to death? I don't think anyone can answer that question. Why did I manage to get sober and my husband didn't?

I really do wish I could answer that. IN fact at times I felt partly responsible because I felt that I had an insight like no one else. Surely I would be able to get him sober? I have to work on myself every day, take an inventory of all my reactions and understand where they came from. Was it fear, insecurity, selfishness, self-seeking for example that led me to react in the way I did?

The fact is that I am now no longer put alcohol into my body, but I still have to find a way to manage my emotions on a day to day basis. More and more people are finding that 12 step programmes are really useful in their lives. It's a design for living that everyone can use, not just alcoholics. I think we all have problems in dealing effectively and managing our lives. Specifically that we are powerless over people, places and things. It's futile to try to change anyone and living with an active alcoholic is a testimony to this. Have any of you read the BIg Book of Alcoholics Anonymous? It really will give a good insight into the the "illness" of alcoholism. It was written quite a few years ago bit don't let the language put you off.

I think it's fantastic that you have a place here to come and share about your experiences, it's one of the cornerstones of these fellowships.

Welcome, Kokeshi - the more perspectives the merrier (and helpful!)

When you are living in the madness of the alcoholic and you are trying to deal with it alone and without support, it is very easy to take offence when someone says anything about you being part of the problem.

ZK - I think this is why you feel as you do. Did you have any help from Al Anon? If you started going to Al Anon you would learn so much about the behaviours of all the people 'on the merry go round called denial' (and I'm not just talking about us).

Alcoholism is an illness, so the alcoholic is not making a conscious choice to drink...they have a compulsion to drink, and we have to accept that we are completely powerless over that. Nothing we do/say or that happens will make any difference to that compulsion, but the way we react to it can make a difference.

As Attila says, until they hit their rock bottom, they will not seek help. Their rock bottom can be reached by the least obvious thing thing - I thought that my DH losing his job would be his rock bottom....Wrong! I know someone elses rock bottom was the day that he couldn't get up for work one day - not the fact that he had nearly killed someone drink driving and had been in prison.

The alcoholic has to do it themselves - it is unlikely that sobriety will work if they are forced before they are ready, and then if they go back to drinking it is far worse than it was before.

It is entirely human to react to the extremes of behaviour that they display, and that is why we feel the way we do; full of resentment, bitterness, lost and alone (esp. if trying to cope alone ).

ML, thankyou for asking after our DD. She is a lively, well adjusted 3 nearly 4 yr old. She hears when DH is sick and says solemnly 'Daddy is very sick, isn't he?' and I say 'yes you're right, he is'. I have stopped questioning her about what he buys when they go off to the shops (completely pointless, just like looking for hidden bottles!!). He has never been abusive in front of her or to her - and believe me if he crosses that line then that will be that! Plan A then plan B.

I have learned to detatch with love - I detatch from the illness but not the DP that is still there underneath. Now that took some doing - because just a look of contempt is as bad as a verbal volley. I also stopped trying to be wonderwoman and started making sure that he had responsibilities. After all, he is at home doing sod all!!

Oops, got a bit carried away there! Sorry!!

Oooh now I feel all protective towards Attilla. Its like someone's being rude to my Mum
This thread has a good balance of people, from those like me, princess and Mickeylou who are stuck in relationships with alcoholics and can't pluck up the courage to end it, to those like Zookeeper and Lemon who have ended it and are dealing with all the feelings that brings. To me Attila provides the voice of reason, she's that voice at the back of my mind that I try to ignore - and I've said it before but she's usually right.
Kokeshi, well done you for stopping. You have been through so much and I can't imagine the pain you have been through.
Keep posting on here - its good to hear things from the recovered alcoholics point of view too.

Kokeshi

Please don't take offence at what I have just posted - I am at work, and had to leave my post and come back to it - and your last post had come up before I posted .

Thankyou for your invaluable insight - it can only have come from someone who has been through what you have.

I can't praise Al Anon enough.

SS

Hi Secretsquirrel

I haven't been to Alanon - maybe for me the time has passed now so again I hope I don't sound woefully ignorant.

BUT

I just don't see how you can "detatch yourself lovingly" from someone you live with. Also, how can you give him responsibilities if he's irresponsible in the same way that you wouldn't give a child responsibilities . What do you do when (as he surely inevitably does)he doesn't shoulder his responsibilities? Isn't there a fine line between detachment and accepting behaviour? If he shoots you a look of contempt and you ignore it is that acceptance or detachment?

I am not being devil's advocate here - it's just that what you say about Alanon makes me feel uncomfortable. If he was, say, beating you up every day then surely noone would surely tell you to coninue to live your life with him whilst detatching yourself lovingly from his violence - why should it be any less acceptable with mental abuse?

I still struggle with defining alcoholism as an illness. If it is then I have thrown out my dc's father in his hour of need

Hi ZK,

I meant if I shot him a look of contempt, not the other way around (though sorry it reads like that!).

I'm trying to explain 'detatchment' from his behaviour, not from him. I'm sorry I can't explain it in a better way, because I'm very new to it myself (although I have been in Al Anon for nearly a year).

If he hit me, that really would be it - I would have to remove DD & myself from the situation. That is 'crossing the line', just as it would be if DD was kicked/hit/abused verbally.

As I have already posted, I have learned that when DH is verbally abusive, he is in a blackout and has no recollection. Sticks & stones and all that. However, I do know how hurtful it is, I'm not a saint and will react if I'm over tired (such as finishing a night shift and having 3 hrs sleep!). I have learned to avoid such situations - but not before learning the hard way.

Al Anon, once you start the programme, can be very uncomfortable for some. You have to examine yourself, your motives, your life.

Even though you are no longer in that relationship, you can still benefit from going to Al Anon.

I hope this helps (a bit! ). Will have to wait now to post again tomorrow!

I struggle with the 'illness' part of it too, Zookeeper. I think the illness is the physical addiction and craving for drink but it can be overcome, as Kokeshi has proved. However in our partner's case they won't get the help they need, no matter who they are hurting, which is selfish.
As for detaching yourself, I too think it is a fine line between detaching and accepting. I withdraw from dp when he's drunk, as a kind of self preservation but I do that by not letting him in the house.
ZK you definitely did not let your dh down in his time of need - it was the other way round. He would not get help to stop this, and made your life intolerable. In my mind you had no choice and you have done the right thing.

I think secretsquirrel is a fantastic example of someone who is benefitting from the programme of recovery in Al-Anon. The motivation behind the programme is first and foremost looking after yourself, despite what's going on around you. By going to Al-Anon you are not absolving the alcoholic or taking the blame. It is, however really difficult to explain on a message board, it's much more effective to see it and experience it as an ongoing journey and source of support.

I don't think it's ever too late to go to Al-Anon, I'm sure it still impacts on your life in some ways?

We're told in AA that alcoholism is a three fold illness: physical addiction, mental obsession and spiritual malady. Stopping drinking is just one part if I don't deal with the mental obsession and spiritual aspect I am more than likely to go back to drinking because I have no mental defense against the first drink.

Please look at this for an explanation of the kind of drinking that you may all recognise

I will always be an alcoholic, and thus I have to continually work on my recovery.

Sorry if this has crossed posts, I started it ages ago and went to make dinner

Hi kokeshi

thanks for the link.

At the moment I am thinking that having excised the alcoholic from my home I don't and shouldn't have to deal with it any more.
The only problem is that I want the nice part of DP to be a parent to the dcs so I suppose that as long as he is a parent then Alanon may be relevant.

Bloody hell - is there no end to it?

I think it's important to acknowledge that alcoholism is a family illness and as such, all those affected are advised to seek their own support system. I must stress again, that Al-Anon is for you (you're not doing a favour to your H), and you can go even if your partner is sober, no longer with you or still performing. The ripples of alcoholism spread far and wide and it's important you look after yourself too.

The link I posted doesn't go to excuse the behaviour of the alcoholic, more an explanation of how we get there.

I wish you all well.

Hi Kokeshi

Thankyou for the link, and for explaining it all from your perspective. I hope you don't leave us completely!!

ZK - I think that AL Anon can still be help to you even if you have 'moved on' from your ex. You will still have to have contact because of the Dcs so it will help not just you but them as well. It will also show you what help there will be for them should it be needed later on in their lives (eg. Alateen).

How is everyone else?

I've caught your colds, you lot! I'm doing some painting as DH is putting up a cupboard (and swearing a lot, but it is nearly done - hurrah!).

Hi Kokeshi. Congratulations on what you have achieved, Did you manage to get sober when still with your dh? I would magine it must be even harder to change when both of you drink??

I find Attila's posts detached, but useful, because as GUP said, her view is the calm, logical voice of reason we all have somewhere in our head, but which we have difficulty acting on for various reasons. It's good to have the sensible unemotional, detached viewpoint, because I know in my heart it's correct, and it helps me believe that I am not in the wrong like dp tells me so often.

He did it again last night. I asked him for his cigarettes so he couldn't smoke in the house as he normally does when high. Then went to sleep downstairs to keep any potential discord away from dd. He came at about midnight to get the cigarettes, and I was so annoyed that he thinks nothing of disturbing me to suit his needs, that I destroyed the 1.5 cigarettes. He then felt justified in making sure I would not sleep, turning on light, singing, pulling duvet off me, etc because i'd been so malicious I should suffer. He claimed he couldn't sleep without fags, thought I should go and get them (it's 2.30am by this time) as he was paranoid. But he went in the end, and I think I probably got to sleep about 4ish.

Apparently, he doesn't think he spent any money on it, as he helped a friend, who offered to pay him, he said no, then the person apparently offered him a line of coke instead. Personally it's the same as spending to me, cos he should have taken the money. I hate him. Spent the night thinking of ways to escape him at least for a bit, but I fear giving in again, I think I'm too good at living in the moment sometimes, allowing myself to enjoy the OK/good times, or just not having the energy and drive to make the separation happen, or fearing how angry he'll get ... not that he's ever physical, but he says horrible things, and will go on and on and on when he's angry, and I find it impossible not to react.

I think I need to get the house on the market to make him realise his plans aren't going to happen. I'm going to make appointment at the CAB too I think.

Hope everyone else OK today

Unfortunately no, I didn't get sober when I was still living with late-H. We lived in Australia and had no support networks. We facilitated each other's drinking and after I was admitted to hospital in 2001 with acute pancreatitis (caused by drink), I knew that I was in real trouble. It took another couple of months for me to realise that I we really could only have a good crack at recovery if we were apart temporarily, so I came back to the UK and went into rehab. He promised he's go to AA and do something about his drinking (you'll all recognise this part), but he just couldn't get it. He was a pro photographer and put his hand through a window one day when he was drunk. After months of operations, they told him they were going to amputate. His drinking just went out of control from there and he hung himself.

Princess, I've had quite a few of these interrupted nights, you wake up tired and think, why? I went to bed at reasonable time!

I don't have anything to add on Atilla's posts discussion but I agree with Princess, some detachment is good, I also read Kokeshi's DDA Support thread for the same reason.

Last night I was told that for the sake of DS we had to carry on an emotionless relationship and that any ideas I may have of separating are just proving what a selfish bi*ch I am apparently.

Also for the last 2 weeks, he's been magically busy on my ACOA nigth so I had to come home to DS and miss the meeting.

Kokeshi, that must be so hard to deal with. I think that the worry that leaving the addict, and their life getting worse / their addiction worsening, or even suicide as in your case, is such a fear. I know that the other person is not my responsibility, nor are their choices, but while I know it logically I cannot seem to accept it emotionally.
Sorry, I'm not very fluent today, lack of sleep, plus I'm surrounded by the chaos that is dp's room after his drug taking - my brain's all pulpy, and almost anything I read on here makes me cry! Maybe it's pmt

wheredowegofromhere - cross posted - that's what my dp says, that I am childish for wanting to separate - a grownup would stay in the relationship for the sake of the child(ren) even if no love left, I am just selfish, and have a single parent mentality, as my parents split up.
I guess it's just their fear talking, but sometimes it's hard not to wonder if there isn't something in what they're saying.
I think I will be schizophrenic soon - I have the logical sensible voiec, and the brainwashed, manipulated voice in my head.

It?s not only the alcoholic who?s at risk of suicide, my sister killed herself when she was 10, she just couldn?t cope.

We had no alateen groups at the time.

We have to be selfish because we are mothers in this thread, supporting the addict is one thing but our priorities are ourselves and our children. They might not be at risk physically but they will suffer emotionally.

Princess:
Been told that I run away from my responsibilities, well truthfully, yes to the run away bit!

I'm glad you get something from the Dependent drinkers thread, wheredowegofromhere. It's really not easy to be sympathetic with someone who still in the throes of alcoholism, especially when it affects your own life to such an extent. I understand this totally. We need perspectives from other people have/are going through similar things and to learn how they've come to live with it.

Sorry for upsetting you princesshobnob, I did have to work through that whole feeling of responsibility, for which Al-Anon did me wonders. Of course I am still sad that he died and never got the same chance as I did, but there was absolutely nothing I could do for him. I did struggle when he would call me at all hours of the night and say that he couldn't live without me, which I admit I did get irritated at quite a lot. It was like a kick in the stomach when I got a call from interpol to tell me he'd been found dead. That was a huge lesson in acceptance, and one that I think has stood me in good stead.

Kokeshi, not just you - I was crying at various threads. I think I'm just suffering emotional overload right now.

You're right, it certainly is hard to feel sympathy towards someone in active addiction. However much of an "illness" addiction might be, as someone suffering the consequences, it's hard to feel anything but anger... if he got help, I'd be more supportive. But he's in denial.
Got to go, dd awake.

Kokeshi, I think the main reason I like reading the DDA support thread is that the posters are addressing the problem by talking and obvioulsy a lot more. Whereas on this thread, most of our partners are denying there's a problem in the fist instance. It's a complete different perspective. Very much like a brick wall.

I guess my take on that is that all of us who're in recovery were once in the same position that your DPs were in. I think back to how I was when I was drinking and find it hard to believe I am the same person. I know I said a lot of spiteful and hurtful things n a blackout, which horrify me when I hear of it.

I do hope your partners manage to achieve sobriety. I'm still making amends for my behaviour when I was drinking, and I do conciously try to be a better person because of how I was then. I'm sure my friends and family all felt as you did, and I know the frustration I felt with my own DH.

I am grateful everyday for what AA and Al-Anon have done for me.