Calling out this man for his shitty behaviour is a terrible idea isn't it.

[VotNow]

Casual relationship. We agreed to be FWB. This was preceded by a couple of months heavy flirting during which he gave every impression of being very attracted to me. He even told someone else he fancied me (who then told me.) All the body language, the catching him watching me when he thought I wasn't looking, the finding excuses to be around me and stand close to me, the playful flirty joking around.

He said he only wanted sex from the start. Fine. I wanted sex with him too. But he was a dreadful FWB. The first time we hooked up he basically told me it was time for me to go after we were finished. I put my foot down and told him I expected to be treated with respect and kindness, even in a casual relationship, and he seemed to get a little better. The second time we got together he made me food and we spent more time talking etc. I was happy enough with that. But he reverted back to being disrespectful and rude again. Ignoring messages when it suited him. Texting at 11.45pm at night (which to be fair, I ignored because I'm not going round at that time.)

The last time we got together was after I had backed off a fair bit. We bumped into eachother and one thing led to another. I still fancied him a lot. But this time he came really quickly (unlike him) and then basically announced - like the first time we got together - that he was done and it was time for me to go now.

We talked and I made it clear that this was unnacceptable to me. That I had been looking forward to some hot sex with someone who would be my friend. I told him that although I was happy with casual and knew we would not be serious, that I thought we had real chemistry. He shook his head and just said we should call it a day. Basically said that I had only been a willing vagina rather than someone he felt an actual connection with.

Well of course I agree that if it's going to be like this then we should call it a day. But I remember back to when we were flirting and how he couldn't do enough for me - getting me drinks and making me coffees at our shared hobby. Always finding excuses to hang around me. The flirting. The staring as I walked past. You don't fake that sort of body language - I now feel so confused. How could I have got it so wrong? It stings and humiliates like buggery.

And I feel furious. With myself for not dumping his arse far sooner, but also with him. I feel he has treated me like shit. The only decent thing he has ever done is end things definitively rather than just ghosting me.

What I want to do is tell him off. Send him a message telling him he's a shit. That decent men are able to treat casual partners decently while maintaining the necessary boundaries. I want to tell him he's immature and that I deserved better.

But this is a terrible idea isn't it. He will probably just tell himself I'm crazy and that I lurve him (I don't.) And considering I haven't contacted him in any way for almost a week since he ended things, if I message now I'm just going to look like I'm still thinking about it (I am but perhaps he does not need to know this.)

How to handle. We're not strangers and are still going to see eachother about.

@Ironingontheceiling and @Bluntness100

If you scroll back and read Greenland’s comments, you’ll see some serious slut shaming from her and another user, who I suspect is the same person judging by the language they both use.

Greenland is very hypocritical. On one post, she complains that OP is being shamed for having sex.

On another, she shames women who have casual sex by saying they have mental health issues, history of abuse or no conscience.

When she’s called out on her hypocrisy and how harmful her language is, she doesn’t engage. It’s really sad to see this sort of behaviour from women towards women, but she is happy to put you down in her comments, but then not engage when you respond. Don’t waste your time.

Yes Tempus, there was a second time. Because I really fancied him and wanted to have a sexual relationship with him. So I told him I didn't like his behaviour and if he wanted to continue in a sexual relationship with me he would need to change. And he did, briefly.

Honestly, reading Mumsnet you would imagine that the majority of women in this world have rock solid boundaries, leave every single relationship the moment there is any kind of misdemeanour, and never give anyone a second chance/the benefit of the doubt. But in real life I know this just isn't true.

I thought we could negotiate a commitment free sexual relationship that was acceptable and enjoyable for us both. Turns out we couldn't. I thought he was a decent bloke who at least cared enough to not want to make me feel like shit. I was wrong. But it took a few tries for me to really see that truth for what it was. Sorry.

Honestly, reading Mumsnet you would imagine that the majority of women in this world have rock solid boundaries, leave every single relationship the moment there is any kind of misdemeanour, and never give anyone a second chance/the benefit of the doubt. But in real life I know this just isn't true.

Nah, it's because we know lots of women have shit boundaries and give too many chances, many of us having done it ourselves, that that is the narrative.

I think it stems from an absolute terror of closeness leading to being hurt/abandoned

Op that’s contradictory. If he was terrified of closeness he’d not have shared as you’re saying. Sometimes people just wish sex. And I think you’re saying what everyone else is saying. It was a miscommunication on what just sex meant. Your view of callous is totally acceptable, but you need to recognise other people do not share this view, both men and women and are happy with just sex and leaving after.

And as for Greenland, agree, some very mysogynistic sexist statements, and a refusal to engage when the response doesn’t meet her narrative.

Nah, it's because we know lots of women have shit boundaries and give too many chances, many of us having done it ourselves, that that is the narrative

Agree, it’s because most folks recognise what’s occurring and how you’re trying to blame him for not meeting your expectations

You clearly stated you wanted dinner, drinks, over night stays, cuddles etc, this is basically a relationship, albeit without commitment. And it’s fine to want that, what’s not fine is to expect it from someone who looked you in the eye and told you clearly it was sex only he was offering.

Actually I didn't clearly state that, Bluntness. Not to him. All I said to him was that I felt his own behaviour was unnacceptable. I didn't ask him for dinner and cuddles, I asked him for some respect.

I'm not blaming him for not meeting my expectations. I'm blaming him for being rude and disrespectful, which I still believe he was. Why didn't he spell out exactly what he wanted? Perhaps he thought it should have been obvious when he said he wanted "just sex"? Well, I thought (and still do) that it should have been obvious to him that I would expect to be treated with a modicum of warmth and kindness by someone I sleep with.

Why is it all my fault? Why am I not entitled to be treated with warmth and respect as a matter of course? Why wasn't the onus on him to spell out exactly how he wanted things to play out? I don't accept I'm in the wrong.

But anyway, the original question was should I message him? And the answer is obviously not. But only because it would make me feel bad, ultimately.

"Just sex" doesn't mean "I am entitled to treat you like a disposable tissue. Expect less respect and regard than I would show to a service toilet cleaner."

That isn't what it means.

NotPrude If you scroll back and read Greenland’s comments, you’ll see some serious slut shaming from her and another user, who I suspect is the same person judging by the language they both use.

Actually I didn't state that either - I have done nothing but support the OP.

What is clear is that this thread is being hi-jacked by certain posters to promote their own particular thoughts on casual sex and how women should accept it and not complain when men treat them badly.

@VotNow

Actually I didn't clearly state that, Bluntness. Not to him. All I said to him was that I felt his own behaviour was unnacceptable. I didn't ask him for dinner and cuddles, I asked him for some respect.

I'm not blaming him for not meeting my expectations. I'm blaming him for being rude and disrespectful, which I still believe he was. Why didn't he spell out exactly what he wanted? Perhaps he thought it should have been obvious when he said he wanted "just sex"? Well, I thought (and still do) that it should have been obvious to him that I would expect to be treated with a modicum of warmth and kindness by someone I sleep with.

Why is it all my fault? Why am I not entitled to be treated with warmth and respect as a matter of course? Why wasn't the onus on him to spell out exactly how he wanted things to play out? I don't accept I'm in the wrong.

Op, clearly I meant on the thread, if you’d stated it to him you’d not have had a problem.

Secondly he did spell it out. I don’t understand how he could have been any clearer with you than “this is sex only”. This is sex only does not mean this is sex with dinner, drinks, breakfast, over night stays and cuddles. It means exactly what it says, sex only.

No one said it was all your fault, in fact it’s been clearly said you both made mistakes and this was about mismatched expectations. This also doesn’t mean you don’t deserve to be treated with warmth and respect, you’re kind of going pff on one now as no one has suggested these things. What was said was you were not entitled to, nor should you habe expected dates ans a casual relationship from a man who tells you straight up at rhe start he wants nothing more than just sex when asking if you’re up for that.

What is clear is that this thread is being hi-jacked by certain posters to promote their own particular thoughts on casual sex and how women should accept it and not complain when men treat them badly

Are you reading another thread? It’s the only explanation? You’re in the wrong one? Or can you post who said women should accept casual sex and not complain when men treat them badly.

Because what everyone is saying is the man was clear, and the op had the ability to say no. If what he was offering was not what she wanted, then she should have said no and walked away. She had and has no entitlement here to a relationship and he can’t have been any clearer with her past drawing her a diagram.

@GreenlandTheMovie

So having different views is hijacking the thread but you’re allowed to repeatedly share your views when it fits your narrative? Ok then...that makes sense!

Look at what you posted. The language you used to describe women who have casual sex was not acceptable. Whether or not you would do it yourself is not the point, but it is not ok to shame women who choose to have casual sex. You say you have supported OP but OP was someone who wanted casual sex, so by extension, you are saying she either has mental health issues, suffered from abuse or has no conscience...

Your language is not OK and hiding behind a screen does not mean you can put women down in such a way. It is people like you who give men the upper hand by deciding how women should behave. It is people like you that allow men to shame women.

This thread is making me really uncomfortable. I have come across this sort of posting before by Bluntness and she/he will go on and on and on trying to impose his/her very narrow view, even though it makes the OP quite distressed.

Some other posters not much better. Mumsnet should be a safe space for women to discuss these kinds of issues, not for other posters to try and force them into agreeing to some viewpoint they are uncomfortable with.

The usual attacking and distorting of viewpoints by those who disagree.

It is people like you who give men the upper hand by deciding how women should behave. It is people like you that allow men to shame women

And she’s going further she’s now accusing what is likely a predominantly female group of telling women they can’t complain if men treat rhem badly, it’s beyond appalling to accuse posters of this.

@GreenlandTheMovie

This thread is making me really uncomfortable. I have come across this sort of posting before by Bluntness and she/he will go on and on and on trying to impose his/her very narrow view, even though it makes the OP quite distressed.

Some other posters not much better. Mumsnet should be a safe space for women to discuss these kinds of issues, not for other posters to try and force them into agreeing to some viewpoint they are uncomfortable with.

The usual attacking and distorting of viewpoints by those who disagree.

And I’ve come across this sort of mysogynistic attacks on women from you.

Look two can play the make believe bullshit game. So let’s not go there shall we.

@Bluntness100

I’m new to MN which could be why, but I’ve never seen anything like this! When people told OP that the man is not in the wrong and the issue was her expecting more than he was offering, she claimed that OP is being shamed for wanting to have sex.

When others tried to tried to break it down (like the burger analogy), she changed tact and when off on a tangent about women wanting casual sex having low bars and standards, and having something wrong with them mentally and morally, failing to appreciate that her attack on women who disagreed with her was actually an attack on OP too, another woman who has and wants casual sex.

It’s really shocking and I’m stunned. She complains that this should be safe space, but it’s people like her who make it unsafe. Women should be able to talk openly about their sexual choices in a predominantly female forum, and not have other women shame them for it.

Like I said, it could be because I’m new to MN but the hypocrisy and shaming is shocking, as is the sudden act of playing the victim when challenged about it.

This use of "she" to refer to another poster in an attempt to silence them is something I've only ever encountered men do in an attempt to shut down women who don't agree that casual, NSA sex is fine and should be normalised. And then they will mock them for not being cool enough or "twee", or alternatively, misquote them to silence them.

Just shows how careful you need to be on the Internet.

No one really likes men who treat women like shit, whatever excuses you make for it or however much you try to normalise it. Even other men don't really respect them (not only if their name is Chad).

@VotNow

But anyway, the original question was should I message him? And the answer is obviously not. But only because it would make me feel bad, ultimately.

Absolutely. I wouldn’t like you to go to the effort of composing a righteous message about it, only to have him dismiss it just as he did you. You wouldn’t feel any better for having done it...only further diminished.

@GreenlandTheMovie

This use of "she" to refer to another poster in an attempt to silence them is something I've only ever encountered men do in an attempt to shut down women who don't agree that casual, NSA sex is fine and should be normalised. And then they will mock them for not being cool enough or "twee", or alternatively, misquote them to silence them.

Just shows how careful you need to be on the Internet.

No one really likes men who treat women like shit, whatever excuses you make for it or however much you try to normalise it. Even other men don't really respect them (not only if their name is Chad).

Oh my.

Are you seriously now saying we must all be men ? I have no idea what nsa means, but I am a woman, and causal sex is fine, it is normal, this is not the 1950s. Women are allowed to have wants and needs too. Not every woman wants to be wined, dined, and dated first. And that’s fine. Women are allowed to just want sex. It is also normal to want a relationship, it’s also normal to adjust your wants depending on the person you’re with snd your stage of life.

Women have a right to choose, not to be put down by you for their choices. They have a right to respect for those choices. Be it no strings sex or a relationship or anything in between. As do men.

As human beings, both men and women, we have a right to choice, a right to say yes or no, a right to say what our boundaries are, and a right to do so without judgement.

Because what everyone is saying is the man was clear, and the op had the ability to say no. If what he was offering was not what she wanted, then she should have said no and walked away. She had and has no entitlement here to a relationship and he can’t have been any clearer with her past drawing her a diagram.

Bluntness he wasn't clear. We have already established this one hundred times. I didn't know that for him "just sex" meant dismissing me as soon as he was done. I have had plenty of casual sex in my life and I have never met anyone who has done this before.

Perhaps it's him that needs the diagram eh? I could do little stick men and it would go like this:

Me = real live human being (wild, I know, given that I have a vagina but stay with me.)

Real live human being = must be treated with a minimum of respect. Putting penis in real live human being does not negate this fact.

BINGO

That’s the thing. You didn’t think just sex meant just sex. He did.

Hopefully both of you will communicate better going forward.

@VotNow

What did he actually do and say? Apart from expecting you to leave after you have sex and sending you late night booty call texts (which is not shocking in the context of a FWB / FB relationship), what did he do and say? That’s what’s missing from your story.

I thought it meant just sex + the basic respect, politeness, and decency with which you'd treat anyone else. I just didn't think I had to say that. I thought it was a given.

he wasn't clear. We have already established this one hundred times. I didn't know that for him "just sex" meant dismissing me as soon as he was done. I have had plenty of casual sex in my life and I have never met anyone who has done this before

No op, with all due respect, what we have established is you did not understand what “ just sex “ meant. For me just sex means exactly that, just sex, only sex, nothing more than sex,, for you it meant sex and effectively dating without commitment.

And I think using the word dismissed is very inflammatory but that’s because you felt you were dismissed as he didn’t wish to spend time with you, and you’re upset. Understandably you’re upset, , you wanted much more from him and he wasn’t interested so you’re very upset about it and feel used, disrespected and abused by him.

Plenty of people walk away after sex, a light hearted kiss, a cheers mate, that was fun, A see you next time. And they see it as a positive. You didn’t want this, you wanted a relationship, dates, without commitment, it was never on offer.

You feel used and upset, understandably because he literally only wanted sex, but you can’t argue he wasn’t clear when he told you he literally only wanted sex. You can argue you didn’t understand this for some reason though.

@VotNow

I thought it meant just sex + the basic respect, politeness, and decency with which you'd treat anyone else. I just didn't think I had to say that. I thought it was a given.

So what does that look like to you?

Becayse earlier you defined it as dinner, drinks, over night stays, cuddles.