My husband is miserable because he thinks our marriage isn't working. I was happy until he said this...

[IGJ10]

I've been married to my husband for 2 and a bit years - it's my first marriage, his second. I love him to bits. Around a year ago, I had some issues with trusting him - I found some excessively flirty/sexual messages with some of his longstanding female friends on his phone. He was open about the fact that he is very flirty with some of his old female friends because it helps his self esteem (which is painfully low - he has often questioned whether he's good enough for me and expressed feelings of disgust about himself). He let me have full access to his phone and changed the way he interacted with these friends, but I felt betrayed that even after we'd married he still needed that validation from other females. I can be honest and say I went from a confident, independent woman to a bit of an emotional mess. Initially I managed to deal with this quite well and we were very honest with each other. At the same time (earlier this year), he started a new job and a member of his team who is very young and pretty has been texting him a lot. And he responded - again, whilst not crossing the line officially (messages were mostly about work) there was a very flirty overtone and when I saw the messages I flipped out. Whilst he has, once again, amended the nature of his messages with her (and he shows me them when I ask), I've met this girl and it's obvious she's besotted with him and gives his ego a massive boost. He claims he feels just friendship towards her and I've accepted that and we've carried on as normal. I haven't asked to see any of his messages for 6 months.

A few weeks ago he told me he wasn't sure about our future, he feels unhappy and has been feeling like he's going through the motions. This was a shock to me. Particularly as he said he'd actually been feeling this way for well over a year (long before I saw the first bunch of flirty messages). I'm aware that my paranoia and trust issues affected him but I felt I'd resolved them and we were getting on an even keel. We've been talking about buying a house and starting a family. I asked him today if he has feelings for that girl and he said "I don't know. Possibly. I don't know what I feel or why I feel." He said he loves me. I asked him what's wrong with the marriage and he said he doesn't know. Despite everything, I've shown him total trust, even after what we went through. I am confused. We are hopefully going to start counselling but any pearls of wisdom would be appreciated. Apologies that this is so long.

I'd be saving money by not attending counselling and put the money i had saved towards paying for a solicitor to start divorce proceedings. As heartbreaking as this is for you, your marriage is over. You didn't deserve this and did nothing to warrant his shabby treatment of you. Only you will know when the time is right to stop battling to salvage this marriage.

"I felt betrayed that even after we'd married he still needed that validation from other females. I can be honest and say I went from a confident, independent woman to a bit of an emotional mess."

These are your own words @IGJ10. And this change in you was wrought by his actions.

Bluntness100 I didn't suggest he was violent in any way!
But he is misogynistic of course he is. Look up the definition. He is misogynistic!
And I think op has never asserted herself so he won't like it but that doesn't mean he'll be violent .

If he has low self esteem, it sounds like he needs counselling NOT you. If he won't consider a proper stretch of counselling, that would be the deal breaker.

By himself, I mean.

God it’s not just the texts though is it? They are designed to soften your boundaries - many cheats conduct affairs in plain sight.

But you know it’s still not the point. You are a few years in. I have all your time plus over two decades with my partner and in those early years we adored each other ans took every opportunity for sex and fun and together time. There was no one else we would rather invest our effort in and that start meant that as age and ill health and deaths and job shit and kid stuff all variously fucked up we unequivocally had each other’s back and still found time to get drunk together and stay up too late chatting. I know my dh still adores me - he puts his effort and energy into me and always makes me feel first. We are really different, have different friends ans do different things but us is what binds us together. You are someone who can have an us, someone who can love ans live but this man is a fuck up who will invest his best self into whichever reflection makes him feel best about himself. No matter how hard you work you won’t change this behaviour - he can’t do it. If he can’t do it now he will never manage it later when you puke for six months or a pregnancy or have a baby with reflux or a dying friend or a health problem. He will be busy texting the latest office starter. It’s not you - it’s him. Don’t waste your time.

@Zolaanna

Bluntness100 I didn't suggest he was violent in any way! But he is misogynistic of course he is. Look up the definition. He is misogynistic! And I think op has never asserted herself so he won't like it but that doesn't mean he'll be violent .

I’m sorry I don’t understand what you mean by he could turn nasty?

I also don’t assume he hates women because he is not committed to the op?

. "I’m also interested to know if everyone thinks sending flirty texts constitutes cheating, even when being open about it."

In short yes. Especially if you have obviously been upset before. My DH would never do this and if he did (especially with no remorse) I would leave him without a glance back as he wouldn't be the man I loved. No man I loved would do anything that would hurt me.

The thing is, the texts are probably just the tip of the iceberg. This is just the stuff you've found out about.

I just don't think that counselling as a couple will work for you because there isn't a problem with you as a couple- there is a problem with HIM. The more that you encourage, support, cajole, the less responsibility he has to take for himself. I think that by agreeing to go along with couple's counselling, you are feeding into the idea that you bear some kind of responsibility for his treatment of you. This is not something for you to work through with him. You trying to support him to overcome his urges to cheat on you gives him entirely the wrong message.

Like PPs have suggested, I think you should try counselling on your own to help you unpick all this. It's really clear from your posts that you are a lovely person, and I think you should direct all that energy towards nurturing yourself instead of him.

When you need marriage counselling after 2.5 yeras, he's been unhappy for a year and has a long history of texting female friends which oush the boundaries and quite clearly sees nothing wrong with it and refuses to stop, you are flogging a dead horse. There is nothing wrong with him to figure out. He doesn't respect you and quite possibly doesn't live you enough to stop any of this. If he was happily married to the woman he loved he would have noneed to seek validation and flirt with other women!

I’m also interested to know if everyone thinks sending flirty texts constitutes cheating, even when being open about it

Absolutely yes. How do you know that you are seeing all the messages, it is possible that he could have a second phone

Perhaps he loves you, but not enough.
The only type of woman this type of man would want to stay with in the long term is a woman who would have thrown him out at the first sign of any misdemeanour, because she would have gained his respect, and without respect love weakens.
He sadly does not respect you now, even if he is not consciously aware of it, otherwise he would not have dared to flirt with another woman, nor would he have wanted to.
True love is not wanting to hurt the other person in any avoidable way. Does his love for you feel like that? Would you have wanted to do the same as him knowing it would hurt you?
You deserve much better and to be truly loved. Don't put up with anything less.

*would hurt him

If you go to counselling with him, be fully prepared for him to manipulate the counsellor into telling you you're unreasonable not to trust him.

And, seriously, this is after a couple of years. Can you really see yourselves happy together in 10, 20 or more years?

I'd bet my firstborn that marrying his first wife too young is his code for he got bored and played away.

I'd see it as emotionally cheating and would ask him to move out. I wouldn't be happy with counselling to fix things for him/us, but I'd consider it for myself to get over the relationship. He's the one in the wrong, you are the injured party, put yourself first!

What you have written is exactly what happened to me last year. I thought my marriage was solid, that he would never cheat, he wasn’t the type. My husband left me for the woman he works with/ manages. We had literally just returned from a holiday to celebrate 6 years of marriage and begin a second fund of ivf following miscarriage, when he dropped the bomb. He hadn’t been happy for a year, he had developed feelings for this woman and he wasn’t sure marriage was for him.
Please, please do no stay with your husband. He is no longer the same man you married. Don’t waste your child beating years on him. My biggest regret is that I did and the irony is that my husbands low sperm count was the reason we needed IVF, and now I’m 44. my chance to have a child is gone because stupidly I trusted and loved a man who I believed incapable of hurting me. Please leave while you can.

Child bearing years , not beating!

Reading the first part of the thread but not later messages my take on this is that I would find it unacceptable if my OH was speaking to other women like this. It's wrong.

Sending flirty messages even when you’re being open about it , constitutes cheating yes . In some ways it’s even worse that he’s doing it while knowing that you have access to his phone , do can see for yourself what he’s doing .
The whole I’m not happy but I don’t know why is utter bollocks in my opinion . If you are not happy , generally speaking you know why you are not happy , especially within a marriage . It sounds very much like he’s laying down the foundations for the next step , which is , I need some time to figure things out in my head . Or in other words , I need some room to do my own thing without a wife in the background . It’s seen on here with depressing regularity .
I don’t see how counseling is going to help tbf , it would seem he’s already got one foot out the door , but I do understand your desire to try everything before you walk away. Just go into this with your eyes wide open

Personally i see flirty messsges as cheating but not everyone does.
For me i see it that there is no need to flirt with other women, by all means chat to them as friends but why add in the flirty bits?

Excess flirting leads to more and usually its an emotional affair and then more often than not a physical one too.

It doesnt matter that they are not hiding the messages, i think alot of men like the thrill of wondering whether they will be caught and it adds to the excitement.

I'm so sure of what i believe constitutes cheating that when my boyfriend and i became exclusive i instigated a chat about cheating to see if we were on the same page, luckily we are.
If, however he though flirty messages were not cheating i wouldnt have got with him because i knew it would cause issues in the future.

He’s made it very clear that his type of low esteem needs constant massaging within and outside of his marriage. You can’t fix him, he isn’t broken, he’s just a man who wants the freedom to do what he wants.

This who he is, who he probably always has been and the suggestion of counselling just like his in plain sight’ flirting are tactics designed to placate you. His unhappiness stems from being called out on his shit. He’s hoping that the subtle threat that your marriage might be in danger, will be enough for you to turn a blind eye to his sad inadequacies.

I understand you want try every and anything to save your marriage but look what it’s cost you already.

His selfish, manipulative and self serving behaviour has already engineered the dynamic, where he’s the victim and you’re the architect of his dissatisfaction. Don’t sacrifice yourself on the alter of ‘if it was for this one thing, our marriage would be perfect’. Waiting for the other shoe to drop, is no way to live.

Good morning all. Thank you again for your thoughts. I’ve had a sleepless night thinking about everything that has been said but I’m also grateful for the support and positive words from people I’ve never met. I know he says he loves me, but I suspect you are right that he doesn’t love me enough. And maybe not enough to make the changes within that are necessary. Only time will tell. My (I hope!) final question is - should I show him what people have said on here? Bearing in mind that he’s not really been able to give his side of things. I know for example he doesn’t see flirty texts/ sexual texts as cheating. He’s also not a misogynistic person, but selfish yes.

I wouldn’t show him the thread, no one wants to hear their a feckless fantasist the wrong side of 35 do they?. Not when they’ve cast themselves as the romantic hero with low self esteem who’s batting the women off left right and centre.

No one likes reality.

Christ OP your paranoia and trust issues were caused because of his flirting via messenger to other woman, you've caught him twice and you think you have got things back on an even keel by not being paranoid, trusting him & no longer checking his phone.
He's still flirting / being inappropriate with the girl from work, you can bet your life on that, he's had his head turned.
Now you get to worry and stress because he doesn't know what he wants.
Kick him to the kerb, he's playing you for a fool