My husband is miserable because he thinks our marriage isn't working. I was happy until he said this...

[IGJ10]

I've been married to my husband for 2 and a bit years - it's my first marriage, his second. I love him to bits. Around a year ago, I had some issues with trusting him - I found some excessively flirty/sexual messages with some of his longstanding female friends on his phone. He was open about the fact that he is very flirty with some of his old female friends because it helps his self esteem (which is painfully low - he has often questioned whether he's good enough for me and expressed feelings of disgust about himself). He let me have full access to his phone and changed the way he interacted with these friends, but I felt betrayed that even after we'd married he still needed that validation from other females. I can be honest and say I went from a confident, independent woman to a bit of an emotional mess. Initially I managed to deal with this quite well and we were very honest with each other. At the same time (earlier this year), he started a new job and a member of his team who is very young and pretty has been texting him a lot. And he responded - again, whilst not crossing the line officially (messages were mostly about work) there was a very flirty overtone and when I saw the messages I flipped out. Whilst he has, once again, amended the nature of his messages with her (and he shows me them when I ask), I've met this girl and it's obvious she's besotted with him and gives his ego a massive boost. He claims he feels just friendship towards her and I've accepted that and we've carried on as normal. I haven't asked to see any of his messages for 6 months.

A few weeks ago he told me he wasn't sure about our future, he feels unhappy and has been feeling like he's going through the motions. This was a shock to me. Particularly as he said he'd actually been feeling this way for well over a year (long before I saw the first bunch of flirty messages). I'm aware that my paranoia and trust issues affected him but I felt I'd resolved them and we were getting on an even keel. We've been talking about buying a house and starting a family. I asked him today if he has feelings for that girl and he said "I don't know. Possibly. I don't know what I feel or why I feel." He said he loves me. I asked him what's wrong with the marriage and he said he doesn't know. Despite everything, I've shown him total trust, even after what we went through. I am confused. We are hopefully going to start counselling but any pearls of wisdom would be appreciated. Apologies that this is so long.

Yes, I didn't really mean that there is a problem as in a type of illness or anything like that. The problem is that he just doesn't have the strength of character or concern for other people's feelings or ability to resist short-term enjoyment to be a good partner. If he hasn't done anything off his own back to sort this out by the age of 37, then I'm afraid I think it's just his personality. Counselling can't turn him into a fundamentally different person.

To relate it back to my experience, my (soon to be ex) husband knows it's wrong to sexually message and have sex with other women. But at the point of it being on offer, he will choose the thing that he thinks he will enjoy most at that time. Because he is a tit. Counselling won't cure that, I hope for his sake he will grow into a better person but it really isn't my problem.

Again, I'd like to thank everybody for their perspectives. I agree, I probably won't "kick him to the curb" - this is all very fresh for me and I know myself I haven't quite reached that point. But please believe that I won't suffer this in the medium or long-term. If I don't see reasonable change with counselling (which I think is our last ditch attempt) I'll be gone. Isn't it possible he genuinely wants to change? I suspect he has never seen it as a problem before and the women in his life previously haven't flagged it as an issue so he has never thought of it as a problem until I brought it up? That being said, if I thought I was doing something that caused him hurt or distress, I would just stop. And I know my expectation of him should be the same.

Dump his ass. I've found that "fuck off and die" really avoids any ambiguity (admittedly, this was deployed when I found out he had got his ex pregnant).

@TwentyViginti
You don't think we should try and work through things together?

Really sorry this is happening. You need to be the one to take control and tell him you want to separate. He has already shown himself to be untrustworthy very early on in your marriage. You have no children with him so get out now before you do or you have all the unhappiness of breaking up a family. Your marriage wouldn’t survive sleepless nights and all the other stress involved with having children if he can’t be a good husband now with just the two of you Show him you are strong and you are not standing for his nonsense Good luck.

If I don't see reasonable change with counselling (which I think is our last ditch attempt) I'll be gone. Isn't it possible he genuinely wants to change?

I have a nasty suspicion that you will find he very genuinely really wants to talk at length about wanting to change. Hon, look at the actions, not the words. If it was something he wanted, he'd initiate and pursue it himself, he'd be doing it. Because he wanted it.

I would even pull him up on his supposed low-self-esteem-get-out-of-jail card and say :” your self esteem is so big, that one woman isn’t good enough for you as you think you deserve more. That is not low self esteem, that’s actually a massive ego”

You don't think we should try and work through things together?

Your husband has no intention to "work things through." He is already halfway out the door, you're just refusing to see it. He has told you the marriage is over, not directly, but by using the coward's Script. Sadly, you are caught up in the delusion that your love for him can fix things. It won't. He is a cheater, and he has always been a cheater. It's time to take the blinders off.

@veryfuckingpeeved Nail on the head there! That was what my ex was like at 37 and he was never going to change. Also fed me a lot of shit about how I was too good for him, which was all just part of the "poor me, new pussy is a deep emotional need" routine. I'm just glad I eventually told him to fuck off and say sorry to the next girl.

@Pikachubaby

I may have to try this!

[quote IGJ10]@TwentyViginti
You don't think we should try and work through things together?[/quote]
What is there to 'work through' from you? You aren't the one endlessly seeking these 'ego boosts' AKA inappropriate messaging and flirting.

The pretty, younger colleague is such a cliche. He doesn't seek out 50 year old Valerie from accounts to message, does he?

I think he knows exactly what he’s doing, he knows it’s wrong. I’m not sure what counselling is going to do other than look like he’s trying.

I’m sorry he’s like this, he sounds like he’s got you dancing to his tune and that is because you are in love with him, but I doubt that he’s writing on a forum try to work out your problems

I'm afraid OP, you can't 'work through' your DH having a complete and utter lack of regard for you or your feelings. He cares only about himself and that is never going to change.

You can extract yourself from a relationship that isn't working but you have to start to put your own needs first and see his duplicitous and nasty behaviour for what it is.

He is no longer your DH. He's a bloke trying to get out of a relationship because he's seen something better. Don't be ten steps behind him. Get ahead.

[quote IGJ10]@TwentyViginti
You don't think we should try and work through things together?[/quote]
Both of you need to want this. He has told you he doesn’t. No one says that unless they mean it or are playing mind games with you.

No marriage should be like this after 2 years. Sure there is a bit a storming when you first live together and share stuff. You shouldn’t have to work out whether it’s ok to openly flirt with other people or develop a crush on a colleague. And that’s a generous interpretation of what he did.

You shouldn’t be feeling the need to check phones and police his conversations.

He is a serial cheater, doesn't matter if he's had sex with them or not, he wants to and that's a cheaters mindset.

He is also a master manipulator.

You are not the problem. He may say things that insinuate that you or the things you do are causing his shitty behaviour but it's a bunch of lies to make him look better when he is treating you disrespectfully by flirting with anyone who's got a pair of boobs.

His suggestion about counselling is also probably bullshit. He wants to drag it out till he has everything in place to dump you in all likelihood. Men like him don't leave the wife until their replacement is fully suckered in.

You are not ready to see it.
You will be eventually and it will be all the more painful when you then when you realise you bought all of his bullshit.

If I don't see reasonable change with counselling (which I think is our last ditch attempt) I'll be gone

I'm sure he'll be good at saying all the right things, of sounding desperate and sincere. He may even cry.

But he won't change. Maybe he can mask it for a little bit, hide it from you.

But look what he has achieved already. You think your have trust issues, when all you really have is perception. You want to support him through counselling. You feel sorry for him for his issues.
You think his low self-esteem is justification for flirting with other women. You think his 'unhappiness' at being with you and not a young thing is something you have the responsibility to fix. You're the perfect partner for a man like him. And by the time you realise that he hasn't changed, you will already be in the medium term.

Honestly OP, he'll be like a kid in candy store once he finds out about married people's dating sites and day use hotel rooms. And its only a matter of time, innit?

if I thought I was doing something that caused him hurt or distress, I would just stop. And I know my expectation of him should be the same.

This is why regardless of what he does re counselling, YOU should have some for yourself too.

Because you've just said explicitly that you live by certain expectations and boundaries in the relationship but don't expect him to live by the same ones.

The expectations and boundaries you place on yourself come from a place of love, commitment and care. He, on the other hand, doesn't have enough resources of those things (love, commitment, kindness) to offer the same to you.

Those expectations and boundaries of yourself are also influenced by your wish not to cause him hurt or distress. He doesn't care enough about causing you hurt or distress to naturally adjust the expectations and boundaries he gives himself.

That's all his problem.

But you're making it your problem by staying with him. Because you do have a choice as to whether you accept that or not.

And because you do accept that huge disparity in what you expect of yourself versus what you expect of him, I think counselling would be of huge benefit.

@Bigpaintinglittlepainting

I'm sure he isn't. I haven't told him as yet that I've done this. But it has weirdly improved my state of mind today. Something I haven't mentioned is that I haven't broached this with my family as yet because he is close to my siblings and unfortunately I don't have a good relationship with my parents. I know my dad would gloat knowing we aren't working out. Whilst this isn't my concern, it's irritating.

I have asked him repeatedly if counselling is just putting off the inevitable or if he's just saying it for the sake of it but he insists he wants to go into it with an open mind...

I've been where you are OP and it took me 17 years to find the courage to leave.

17 years of constant flirting which became emotional affairs, he had no end of counselling and promised to change and he did change for about 4 or 5 months each time until he reverted to type.

It was almost like a cat and mouse game, how long before he was caught.

My husband started in our first year of marriage, i should have walked then but he had depression and threatened to kill himself so i stayed time and time again.

When i ended our marriage he thought it was a temporary punishment and I'd let him back eventually, 18 months later when he realised i was seeing someone he realised i was serious and it wss no punishment.

He told me he did all the flirting and enotional affairs for an ego boost and it made him feel wanted and he was never going to leave me for any of them and basically expected me to put up and shut up.
He also told me that when i found out and went mad at him he took it as a sign i did love and care about him.

How fucked up is that? We actually had a really good relationship before he started the flirting and our sex life was good but that wasnt enough for his ego - he needed drama and excitement.

I'm 2.5years down the line from splitting, divorce all finalised, I'm the happiest I've ever been while he sits in a little house all alone on benefits wallowing in self pity.

I should have sympathy as he had a crap upbringing which led to depression but i have no sympathy, he had plenty of chances to get help with his counselling but each time he was never cured because being a dick isnt curable.

I'm glad i got out when i did, i had no self esteem and no confidence when i left him.
His flirting and emotional affairs affected me more than i realised and actually i did nothing wrong (except stay) but the brain doesnt see it like that unfortunately.

By all means let him have counselling and you should too but dont expect miracles and also please take a step back, you do not need to fix him, he needs to fix himself.

Good luck

Oh he'll enjoy counselling, he can wail at length to a captive audience about his poor little need for the ego boosts he gets from other women. Especially the young pretty ones.

Immature, thoughtless git.
Will never change.

Dump before you have children, he will never change, grow up or make you happy.

He's far too selfish.

i should have walked then but he had depression and threatened to kill himself so i stayed time and time again.

The last resort of a manipulator. Sorry you fell for that.

IGJ10 I'm not clear why you're continuing to justify his behaviour and your determination to bend to his will, despite several well-constructed posts here giving you ample evidence that this man is manipulative, reckless, immature, and is only going to wear you down more.

You say you love him but it's clear from your post that he doesn't love you. Love means respect and he obviously doesn't respect you. How much of your self-esteem have you invested in this man, this marriage, and the comfortable feeling of not yet having had to deal with his continued manipulation when you tell him you're leaving? If you're going to seek counselling, these are things you might want to focus on before looking at this relationship.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

if I thought I was doing something that caused him hurt or distress, I would just stop. And I know my expectation of him should be the same.

This is why regardless of what he does re counselling, YOU should have some for yourself too.

Because you've just said explicitly that you live by certain expectations and boundaries in the relationship but don't expect him to live by the same ones.

The expectations and boundaries you place on yourself come from a place of love, commitment and care. He, on the other hand, doesn't have enough resources of those things (love, commitment, kindness) to offer the same to you.

Those expectations and boundaries of yourself are also influenced by your wish not to cause him hurt or distress. He doesn't care enough about causing you hurt or distress to naturally adjust the expectations and boundaries he gives himself.

That's all his problem.

But you're making it your problem by staying with him. Because you do have a choice as to whether you accept that or not.

And because you do accept that huge disparity in what you expect of yourself versus what you expect of him, I think counselling would be of huge benefit.

All, all, ALL of this.

I had counselling with my ex who also had a sudden onset attack of ‘doubts’ ‘just feeling like something is wrong’ and ‘maybe we’re just not like in love anymore you know?’ - coincidentally around the time he got a pretty and younger work colleague who thought the sun shone out of his arse but who was definitely just a friend (until it turned out he’d got get pregnant).

The problem with counselling is that it tend to assume you’re both acting in good faith. And it obviously gives both points of view equal weight, so when one of you is sitting there suddenly claiming that you were never happy and basically turning your entire relationship into a lie, you have to sit there and give that due consideration and really let it in to destroy what little bit of yourself you were still hanging on to. Rather than just laughing and telling them to piss off with their utterly tedious and predictable script that literally every single one of them uses.