My husband is miserable because he thinks our marriage isn't working. I was happy until he said this...

[IGJ10]

I've been married to my husband for 2 and a bit years - it's my first marriage, his second. I love him to bits. Around a year ago, I had some issues with trusting him - I found some excessively flirty/sexual messages with some of his longstanding female friends on his phone. He was open about the fact that he is very flirty with some of his old female friends because it helps his self esteem (which is painfully low - he has often questioned whether he's good enough for me and expressed feelings of disgust about himself). He let me have full access to his phone and changed the way he interacted with these friends, but I felt betrayed that even after we'd married he still needed that validation from other females. I can be honest and say I went from a confident, independent woman to a bit of an emotional mess. Initially I managed to deal with this quite well and we were very honest with each other. At the same time (earlier this year), he started a new job and a member of his team who is very young and pretty has been texting him a lot. And he responded - again, whilst not crossing the line officially (messages were mostly about work) there was a very flirty overtone and when I saw the messages I flipped out. Whilst he has, once again, amended the nature of his messages with her (and he shows me them when I ask), I've met this girl and it's obvious she's besotted with him and gives his ego a massive boost. He claims he feels just friendship towards her and I've accepted that and we've carried on as normal. I haven't asked to see any of his messages for 6 months.

A few weeks ago he told me he wasn't sure about our future, he feels unhappy and has been feeling like he's going through the motions. This was a shock to me. Particularly as he said he'd actually been feeling this way for well over a year (long before I saw the first bunch of flirty messages). I'm aware that my paranoia and trust issues affected him but I felt I'd resolved them and we were getting on an even keel. We've been talking about buying a house and starting a family. I asked him today if he has feelings for that girl and he said "I don't know. Possibly. I don't know what I feel or why I feel." He said he loves me. I asked him what's wrong with the marriage and he said he doesn't know. Despite everything, I've shown him total trust, even after what we went through. I am confused. We are hopefully going to start counselling but any pearls of wisdom would be appreciated. Apologies that this is so long.

I think you've got trust issues because he isn't trustworthy.

The messages with his coworker have been flirty, but not sexual (yet?). I remember seeing a message where she was banging on about how his eyes look different colours in different lights and he has mentioned that he liked a dress she wore and her nail varnish. He often says how 'awesome' she is

That's more than flirty - that's explicitly, ' I want to shag you and I am letting you know it' territory, from both of them. God help you, if this is the tamer end and his texts to women. Bloody hell, he's stringing her and you along to his merry dance, isn't he?

On the counselling - be very careful with this OP. I have seem maybe half a dozen counsellors in my life and five of them were crap. Its a hard job being a counsellor and most aren't very good at it. I have read terrible reports on here from women who have been to relationship counsellors and basically felt the counsellor became a stooge of the husband, undermined them and made them feel shitter.
Your partner has already got you feeling shitter and to blame for his flirtations. If you are starting to get some confidence back now, a bad counsellor could undermine that.
I really feel you are wasting your time. You are holding out hope he will change and he won't.

If you must do counselling - what is your end game?. How long will you give it? WHat are your criteria for knowing he has changed for good? You need answers to these. You are gambling a lot for things you can't control and when you have no certain way of knowing if he has changed. He's not gambling anything. Bluntly, he's already lined up his next conquest.

“I'm not planning on starting a family with him at present.”

How important is it to you to have children? You are saying you won’t try for children with him at present and you say “time will tell” as to whether or not he can behave like a proper husband. But if you are 37, time is not on your side from the perspective of having children. I had children in my mid to late 30s and I have other friends who did also but I equally have friends who struggled, some of whom never did manage to have children. So if having children is really important to you, you don’t have time to wait around and see whether he sorts himself out. Given who he appears to be, you may well need a Plan B. And remember that, unless he has as yet undiscovered fertility issues, his window of opportunity for becoming a father is much larger than yours for becoming a mother – he could comfortably father children into his 40s or even 50s. Please do not find yourself in the position of losing your opportunity to have children only to find that he goes off with a younger woman and then starts his own family. I’ve seen that happen and other posters have seen that happen. If having children is really important to you, please don’t let yourself be put in that position.

@sadie9

I would definitely agree that our relationship has morphed into one where I 'mother' him a lot. And he absolutely has issues with his own mother - never feeling good enough. I remember when we got engaged, he told his parents - his dad was really happy and said congratulations and his mum's first words were 'aren't you a bit beneath her?' She's often like this and I don't think she knows how much it affects him. However, at 37 he needs to move on. He says he's open to counselling but I don't know if that equates to truly being open to change. I think time will tell.

I know writing a letter comes across as passive. But I felt beyond angry when I discovered the things I did - I kept it to myself because I don't like to do things in anger I may regret. I took time to process my feelings and then put it on paper. I find sometimes when I talk and I'm emotional I get flustered and don't say what I really want to or I forget things.

Right now, I feel dejected (inevitably). I've shed so many tears these last weeks. And indeed this last 24 hours, reading these posts I've been through a whole roll of loo paper. I've never been certain if I wanted kids and I'm still not. I know I wouldn't regret not having any. But I do want to be in a relationship where I feel loved and respected forever. I must say that I'm very fortunate to have an excellent and well paid job and am pretty much at the top of my career, so finances aren't a concern for me. I am hopeful for the future though and the kind words and advice I've received here have really helped solidify that hope.

I wouldn't show him. By giving him insight into others' interpretations of the mindset behind his behaviour, you would be helping him find ways to deflect blame, preempt your points and reframe the situation to his advantage and with him as the central figure to be pitied and forgiven.

some of the texts I've seen with his "longstanding female friends" are overtly sexual.

This in itself is heartbreaking. Yes he may have stopped, but only after you pulled him up on it.

Now he has fresh meat in the younger colleague.

Regarding your mothering him,I did mention that in a previous post. That's not healthy, as I'm sure you are now aware.

My exh had similar issues - he was the family idiot. Resulting in him constantly looking for an ego boost, someone telling him he was great - and also desperately hiding any perceived imperfections or mistakes from them: they taught him to lie.
And he couldn't admit his flaws to himself, let alone a counsellor.

Very sad for your dh, but as Bluntness said, his comments about not knowing whether he fancies his OW, not knowing what he feels and being unhappy but not knowing why, most likely all mean he's halfway out the door. He's warming you up to the idea that him leaving is your fault, or at least that he is not the baddie. He's probably like my ex, and can't stand being seen as the baddie.

Has he told you that he loves you but is not in love with you, or that he loves you but something else or another yet?

Do not be surprised if mothering appears as an issue in counselling, and his mother sounds vile to him. Do you know if she was nice to him when he was little? Did she change later in life? Maybe because she did not approve of how he treated women?

How can you not know if you fancy someone? 🤨 how does that work?

Exactly @Fluffycloudland77 he definitely has admitted to fancying her by avoiding the answer. The only acceptable answer to that question is no I don't fancy her.

I would keep MN to myself indeed.
And stop crying and enjoy life. I wish you could go out with your friends! This covid is a real problem!
Show him you are strong and want to be happy, and he cannot take that from you. Do things you like and squeeze as much pleasure from them as you can. I know it is easier said than done, but it is what it is. Unfortunatelly, many women walk this road

Look at the drama triangle. You are rescuing him from his mum (oppressor) and he plays the victim.

Step back as an adult, do you want a man-child or a man?
Shouldn't he grow up rather than you adapt to become the mother he wanted?

(NB. I took the saviour role & my exH cheated on me & left me with our distressed DCs, it's a rubbish role).

The mum had a point when she said he’s beneath you, she’ll know a lot more about his romantic back ground than you. Maybe she was trying to tell you something.

That sounds like a rubbish relationship when he keeps sniffing round other women. Youd be better off leaving him and finding someone who loves and appreciates you and doesn't need validation from other females

I would also suggest keeping mumsnet to yourself as I dont think it’ll help you at all. Hope counselling works but if not I hope you can be strong enough to venture out on your own. Not easy I know. I think you deserve better

@ravenmum
Today he said that he feels conflicting emotions at the same time about me. He said he’s in love with me and can’t bear to not be with me. But he also feels our love has been superficial at the same time. He said he on the one hand feels we should break up and on the other wants to build a future with me. I pressed him about his young coworker and he got upset. He then said he feels ‘confused’ about his feelings towards her. And he thinks if our relationship had been good he wouldn’t have been in the headspace to ‘latch’ onto her. He feels we lack direction as a couple, despite the fact we had been looking to buy a house and considering starting a family.

@Lozzerbmc I agree.

@IGJ10

Good morning all. Thank you again for your thoughts. I’ve had a sleepless night thinking about everything that has been said but I’m also grateful for the support and positive words from people I’ve never met. I know he says he loves me, but I suspect you are right that he doesn’t love me enough. And maybe not enough to make the changes within that are necessary. Only time will tell. My (I hope!) final question is - should I show him what people have said on here? Bearing in mind that he’s not really been able to give his side of things. I know for example he doesn’t see flirty texts/ sexual texts as cheating. He’s also not a misogynistic person, but selfish yes.

''should I show him what people have said on here?'' No, definitely not! This is your place to vent, to ask questions, to be anonymous, to say your worst fears and hopes. To ask the unaskable, think the unthinkable, all without the self-censorship that would kick in once he was here looking over your shoulder.

''Bearing in mind that he’s not really been able to give his side of things. I know for example he doesn’t see flirty texts/ sexual texts as cheating.''
I'm afraid your husband's behaviour is such a cliché that I really don't feel the need to listen to 'his side'. (You asked about 'The Script' earlier in the thread. It's an acknowledgement that the behaviour of all these men is so similar, it is as if they are all actors following the same script, so similar are their words.)

And of course he says he doesn't see these texts as cheating. If he said any differently he'd have to admit to himself that he is at fault. He's far too busy rewriting history to make your marriage breakdown all your fault, nowt to do with him and his shitty behaviour.

@MushMonster
I think he’s quite sensitive and she is very negative generally. Probably more so towards him than his siblings. I’ve heard him tell her not to be so negative but I think she can’t help herself. I don’t think he’s treated women badly per se. With his ex wife they were both young and didn’t know what they were doing. With his last relationship, I think they both did things wrong.

^''But he also feels our love has been superficial at the same time.''
A bit of projection on his part here, where a person attributes to someone else what they themselves are thinking or feeling. He's making you think your love seemed superficial to him, when actually he's admitting to loving you superficially. He really is a manipulative little fucker!

He said he on the one hand feels we should break up and on the other wants to build a future with me.

And all his other maybe maybe nots... what does he envisage you doing while he works out whether or not he feels like committing to your relationship? Waiting? Encouraging him to pick you? Giving him lots of reasons to stay?

I suspect the answer here is to call his bluff and let him know if he's half out then he needs to leave and let you know ASAP if he's all in or all out because frankly he can't expect you to put up with this. But you do need to see that he is expecting you to do all the work and all the commitment and all the running in this relationship, while he dithers over whether or not its enough to tip him into wanting to do something. This isn't a relationship he's got commitment towards, he isn't prepared to make an effort, he isn't prepared to do anything. But he's quite happy for you to be miserably in limbo and expect you to wait staying fully committed to him while he wanders through his various choices and tries to decide if he might like to stay with you.

Oh god I really feel for you, dh is motor trade and I’ve seen this so many times. Their happily married till the 23yo receptionist gives them the eye.

If you’ve got a good career to support you you’re in a good place to pull the plug & let him be confused on his own time. He’s just keeping you on the back burner now & you don’t want to look back on this one day wishing you’d shown him the door earlier.

There’s no happy ever after with cheaters.

I would also add OP, I would not now have trust in this man to build any kind of future with him that he wouldn't wander out of and vacillate over, leaving you in a much worse lurch than you're in now. If he's not sure he's happy or what he wants now, imagine yourself seven months pregnant when heavy pressures and lifetime commitments are in plain sight ahead, with him wondering if he wants to be a father or not.

Wow, he’s really putting you through the ringer here, OP. He’s confused? How does he think you feel?!

That talk about lacking direction, being unhappy and superficial is baloney. He’s trying- and failing- to have his cake and eat it. By sowing the seeds of doubt in you by giving you just enough hope to make you think this marriage is worth saving, he reserves the right to come in and out of this marriage as he pleases; leaving you dangling and disoriented in the process. He’s even trying to justify his feelings for a colleague by somehow insinuating you/the relationship is at fault. Ugh.

Please put yourself first, Op. No one should be made to feel guilty in order to satisfy someone else’s emotional needs. It sounds as though you could lie down abs die in a ditch for this man and it still wouldn’t be enough to distract him from young skirt in the office/elsewhere.