Marriage

[doireallyneedaname]

My partner & I have been together for 5 years. In the beginning I was open about my wishes to eventually marry & have children.

Through out the entirety of our relationship I have watched so many of both his own friends and mine get engaged and I used to get upset about it. Initially he had said it would happen but he was hardly going to talk to me about it. Then slowly it changed ti “I want to save enough money to do something great, you said in the beginning you’d always wanted a great gesture”, to “there’s a lack of trust from you and I want to fix that before we get married” to now “you know Im not fussed for marriage, it doesn’t mean anything.”

His parents never married and have lived very happily so he doesn’t get it. My parents did marry and I come from a family who see it as a big deal, as do I. It just means something to me and i guess it’s the fairytale I’d always dreamed of.

He says having a baby together should prove his commitment. It’s not really about that, although now I’m starting to wonder how committed he really is. I will always explain that if it’s not a huge deal to him but he’s not against it per se, but it’s a big deal to me, why wouldn’t he just do it for me?

My issue is that I don’t talk about it anymore but I also don’t expect a proposal anytime soon, if ever.

Anyone been in a similar situation?

all the financial protections in place so that you have the same rights as a married couple.

@goldenharvest

There is no tax to pay in transfers between people who add married / in civil partnerships. While alive, this means a doubling the exemption on capital gains tax. In death, in means significant tax advantages, which are not otherwise available.

@Boopthesnoot1

You can get married for next to nothing, we spent less than £300 including legal fees, rings, and my dress. Could have been half that if we hadn’t bothered with rings! It’s really not about a cake and a fancy dress. It’s a simple legal contract that ensures you are seen as family in the eyes of the law and the state and confers rights and protections on you and the children of your union.

Yeah fair call but don't feel it's necessary. I live in Australia and defacto or married i have just as many rights in either situation. Not sure if this is different in the UK?

Aw, OP, I wonder if our unromantic arguments are more likely to put you off the envisaged "fairytale" than not! I get that we are addressing quite different concerns to the ones you had in mind. I'd say the most salient legal advantages in your current situation would be:

• recognition as next of kin, e.g. in hospital
• if the relationship lasts until one of you dies (hopefully many decades into the future!), no inheritance tax on his part of the estate

There are probably more, that's off the top of my head.

@doireallyneedaname

I agree to a degree but I don’t believe that a man in love will or should do anything for the person he loves. It’s a fine line. If you’re in a relationship should you then give up your career, friends, hobbies all in the name of love because that’s what your partner wants?

I had a horrific relationship before my current partner and during that time I truly believed and chanted that men would move mountains for the person they loved because that’s how I was, but now I’m starting to think that was unrealistic. If he was against marriage would that change this? Would I then be the selfish one for trying to force him to do something he truly didn’t believe in?

Was this in response to me? There’s a big difference between ditching your friends careers and hobbies (wtf) and signing some papers because it would make your partner feel better.

I really don’t believe in this ‘he doesn’t believe in the principle so why should he do it’. It’s just some paperwork. That would make both your lives easier. No big deal!

@AnneLovesGilbert

He lied to you. If his reasons are based on his parents and he’s now saying they haven’t changed. So what do you think explains his assorted lies about a big gesture, the lack of trust etc?

This is, I think, the key point here.

@doireallyneedaname

I agree to a degree but I don’t believe that a man in love will or should do anything for the person he loves. It’s a fine line. If you’re in a relationship should you then give up your career, friends, hobbies all in the name of love because that’s what your partner wants?

I had a horrific relationship before my current partner and during that time I truly believed and chanted that men would move mountains for the person they loved because that’s how I was, but now I’m starting to think that was unrealistic. If he was against marriage would that change this? Would I then be the selfish one for trying to force him to do something he truly didn’t believe in?

OP,

You are comparing two totally different things.

No body is suggesting a partner gives up everything like hobbies and friends.

That would be very unhealthy.
Perhaps that is part of the problem.

I think you are tying yourself up in knots instead of accepting the truth.

Help yourself and don't have more children with someone who won't marry you.

“Yeah fair call but don't feel it's necessary. I live in Australia and defacto or married i have just as many rights in either situation. Not sure if this is different in the UK?”

Yes - the position is very different in the UK. In the UK, there is no concept of common law spouse. You have to be married or in a civil partnership to get the necessary legal protections.

@doireallyneedaname

In arguments we have had I have questioned that. He says he has never been fussed for marriage or kids but that changed when he met me, He reminds me that I said a lot of things when we first met that didn’t materialise either - like wanting to give up home life and travel the world together. We have travelled a fair bit but not to the extent I said I would like us to, whereas he still wants us to do this. There is a lack of trust in our relationship on my part; mainly due to my previous relationship which was extremely emotionally abusive. There are a lot of fixable problems in our relationship that we are actively working on and they have improved significantly over the last couple of years. Sometimes I feel like he thinks one day things will be “perfect” and that will be the right time to marry.

OP,

Going ahead and having children when there are problems in a relationship with a man who is actively avoiding marrying you, was never, ever going to get you a wedding.

I understand this is upsetting for you.

But if you really want to come out the right side of it, own the truth about yourself, him, and the past 5 years of being given the run a round.

YOU wanted a child and he went along with it.
He has backed further and further away from marriage because he really doesn't want it.

There is absolutely nothing to be gained by marrying a man who REALLY has to be forced into it.

Stop focusing on him.

Start thinking about you.
You have a job.
You can support your child.
Keep yourself financially independent.

Do not have more children with him.
Think about the life you want with someone who wants you as much as you want him.

Think about doing the FREEDOM program that is recommended on here.

You went from a bad relationship where you weren't treated well into one where despite clearly NOT getting your needs met, you pushed ahead with having a child.

Not healthy.

Start focusing on you and having stronger boundaries.

If you do this, you may realise that giving him ALL the control in this relationship and ownership of your happiness is NOT in your best interests.

Wishing you well.

how vulnerable I would be if he left

I for one have been very clear that this isn't the only way you would be very vulnerable, several other pps too have pointed out it's also if he dies before you, and I've said about if he becomes incapacitated

I’d like to think that after all this time I have a fairly good idea of how my partner reacts to situations, although I appreciate couples have split up out of the blue after decades of marriage & I’m not saying that’s not possible I’m just saying that knowing this man, even if that was to happen he wouldn’t leave us high and dry. If not for me then he definitely wouldn’t for our son who he adores

Famous last words!

My ex's behaviour as the cause of and following our split was SO out of character that his own family thought he was mentally ill. We were married 10 years, together 13, he'd been right up until the moment of the split and engaged, doting and involved father...by the WEEKEND after the split he'd almost totally lost interest in dd. He was far more interested in going clubbing with ow.

The relationships board is LITTERED with posters who never thought these men would abandon and see their dc in hardship.

Attila'a and billy1966's posts are spot on!

Of course there are couples who have stayed happily together for 20/30/40 years without marriage. They're usually the ones where BOTH parties are unfussed by the idea of marriage.

Yes

And it's actually very rare that cohabiting couples stay together that long, they're more likely to split than married couples statistically

Some of the views on here are very old fashioned

I completely disagree. The views on here re marriage aren't due to religion or morals but due to the law of the land being such that not being married but cohabiting generally speaking leaves a women more financially and legally vulnerable. That's not old fashioned that's pragmatic and realistic

Regardless get all the financial protections in place so that you have the same rights as a married couple

Impossible to do.

Some can be approximately replicated but not all and it's generally more expensive and time consuming to do so than just get married! Because getting married is possible within a few weeks and for less than £200 if you forgo all the fripperies.

Id rather spend money on a holiday and our daughter than wasting money on wedding cakes and dresses.

See this sort of "argument" against marriage on here all the time. A wedding and a marriage are separate things.

Nobody has to have a posh dress, expensive cake etc you can book it and pop along in your normal clothes and marry in your lunch hour with witnesses off the street if you so wish for a minimal amount of money.

Then @Boopthesnoot1 I feel you posted disingenuously or at least without full knowledge of the situation. Cohabiting couples don't have any rights here in the uk where this site is based, equal to those they would if married.

You keep talking about how you'll never be sure if he actually wanted to marry you when it's pretty clear that he doesn't.
That's not to say that he won't, but a person who doesn't see the point in marriage and has parents in a stable unmarried relationship is not going to wake up one day and have the epiphany that marriage is actually what he wants.
He's said that he would do it regardless. You should take him at his word and make the arrangements. If not for you, for the financial security of your son.
That is the point of marriage in present times.

@Arrowcat

OP you come across as sensible and I can't help thinking that lots of others are blinded by their own experience (just as I am to a certain extent). You partner and your relationship sounds reasonable. I agree you need to be the proactive one here - just because it's on your terms doesn't mean he doesnt want it or you strongarmed him into it. It just means he's a bit 'meh' about marriage and that's ok. As a counter to others can I share my experience? My parents weren't married, they stayed together on/off for 40 years. Never fell out of love but couldn't live together, my mum nursed my father through the last 7 years. Yes - I got the inheritance instead of her but she saw it as my future anyway and I took care of her too. (just as I see it for my kids). My husband wanted to get married and my mum wanted to see me get married before she died. So we did. It was important to them and I loved them. But it's not made me stay, money wise my husband stands to get more short term and me more long-term if we spilt. I still forget we are actually married and call him my partner most of the time. Marriage is only a big deal when you spilt up. Not before. So get planning that registry office and do something for both of you! He can get excited about the house and do the planning for that and you can do the registry office. Job done. X

I actually find that so sad that your dad didnt directly share all he had, including his inheritance, with your mum, despite them being together for 40 years and her nursing him for 7 years Surely he should have trusted her that she would also have provided for you too as you're her own child!

You mention they were on/off so perhaps the trust wasn't fully there but you would have thought after 7 years looking after him that would cancel that out.

@Smudgingpastels

OMG op, why are you in such denial about the basic undeniable fact that he doesn't care about your wishes or feelings?!

You want to marry a man who has no desire to make you happy.

Think about that.

Exactly. Having family support is great but at the end of the day they're HIS kids and she's meant to be in a lifelong committed relationship with him, not her family.

I feel though most women in this situation have to construct a cloak of denial otherwise they won't be able to live with what's right in front of them i.e. a man who despite them investing everything in, still wants to maintain a clear escape route out of their relationship and family.

Haven't read the replies but will do later. I've just posted a similar problem.. I think as most have put on my post and I suspect yours that you'll never get what you want just like me.. So sad I kmow, hope I'm wrong but?

Unmarried, you’re not his next of kin should he be seriously ill or in an accident, and vice versa, that alone should be a good enough reason

@PutBabyInTheCorner

I'm surprised at the comments on here! I've been with my partner for over 12 years and we have 3 children. We have a good life. I'm financially secure (I earn more than him) and I have never wanted to get married. He would like to get married. He feels I should have the same name as my children (yes, they have their dad's surname as it wasn't important to me) but I don't see this as an issue. My partner is more traditional and I think assumes and hopes it will happen eventually while I don't have any interest and want to stay as I am. I have said if (as in your situation) it was an absolute deal breaker and he was desperate to get married I'd do it. I think he hopes I will 'want' to get married eventually rather than feeling like I've been forced or accepted it. Maybe it's a similar situation for you? Your partner is willing in principle to get married to please you but you'd like him to want to get married. Sadly if it's not important to him you can't force it. If he's a good father and great in other ways maybe this is something you need to try and accept? Ultimately he doesn't want to and you do so one of you will lose out.

It's not similar to the OP's situation. Your boyfriend wholly wants to get married and you would be willing to get married if he was desperate for it. The problem is that OP's boyfriend definitively doesn't want to, and there's no guise even of wanting to do it to please her otherwise he would have proposed years ago as she's made it clear from the beginning that it's important to her.

Your post is a good warning that she should not expect him to change his mind, and sadly should have left the relationship much earlier.

Read through with interest. My first thought was that many people here have an old fashioned view re the importance of marriage but I have changed my mind having read everything.

I married nearly 30 years ago and knew for certain I would never choose to have a child without being married - not as I had thought through all the issues raised here and certainly not for any religious or moral reasons, but because I felt a refusal or lack of desire to marry meant a lack of long term commitment. You probably think 30 years ago no one hesitated over marriage but actually that's not true and I felt somewhat uncool in having the feeling. I also know couples who have been together a similar length of time without being married and still see them as slightly "edgier" and cooler than me! (One such married a few years back so that the family could live in Japan for a while - husband British, wife Japanese)

Going back to my feeling- that a lack of desire or refusal to marry indicates a lack of true commitment, given your wish to be married, I'm inclined to think this IS your situation. So what that his parents didn't marry, and so far, all is fine? It isn't a big deal, or doesn't have to be. Yes we had the big wedding and spent 6 months planning it, but there's no need for all that. It's a legal contract at its simplest. Why can't he make that if he truly wishes to commit to you? His lack of wish to marry is a negative - why won't he positively do what means so much to you? What harm would it cause him if he sees your life together going on into the future? It won't actually change his life or himself in any tangible way on a day to day basis. He doesn't need to wear a ring or add your name to his or whatever. Theoretically he doesn't even need to tell anyone else that you are married (except for official reasons).

I have concluded that I agree with most posters. He either doesn't love you enough or doesn't see a future with you. And if I'm wrong, then you need to get him to do the deed and marry you. You are not being selfish in stating your wants. He is by hedging and putting it off and not explaining why he is doing so.

You need to sit down and do proper long-term planning, as you have a child. Wills (+naming guardians) PoA. Insurance.
Consider all serious eventualities. What if one of the three of you developed serious illness? Two incomes then become one, and the person not working's career suffers.
What if one of you gets a head injury and a change of personality and runs off to join the Moonies? Bear in mind wills can be changed at any time and ditto LPAs can be revoked.

Look. I love my OH. He loves me. We broadly do the same job and earn similar amounts and I had excellent contraception. If I'd ever wanted kids I would have got married first but I never did. HOWEVER after many years I realized we'd probably be paying IHT if one of us died (we were updating wills) and his pension would only pay something to me if we were married, so I suggested we go down the registry office and it was all done within three months.
A couple of years later us being married meant we could save a four figure amount of tax so given we paid ~£200 to get married including bus fare, curry for 4 and a bottle of wine, it paid for itself.

Bonus is that if one of us gets really unwell there's no possibility of either of our mad families playing silly buggers, though as we're so old now, we've outlived most of the really barmy relations! And we can safely holiday in countries where the law says you have to be married (a lot of which turn a blind eye unless you end up on someone's wrong side).

My partner wanted a baby and I wanted marriage first. I knew if we had a baby there was no way we would get married due to finances and probably seeing it as pointless after having a child. however we were engaged at the time and he had asked me without any prodding at all from me, which I think is the main difference. Now together 11 years, engaged 8, married 3 and a 4 month old. I think your main bargaining chip for marriage was before having a baby, but that doesn't mean your other half isn't committed especially if his parents were never married it just seems like his norm. I think my DH would have been just as committed to me without marriage but it was really important to me to do things 'the right way'. I now see that it's just one of many ways that works for different people. Have a serious talk with him about it, it is the only way your going to know one way or another and what to do next. Either keep pushing for marriage or go as you are if he's very against it and be sure to say about the trust issues that you can't just walk out of a marriage as you can a relationship so that point is invalid. Get it all out into the open otherwise it's going to keep playing through your mind

This thread has really brought home how the legal significance of marriage varies according to where you live. My understanding is that in some countries (such as Australia) long-term co-habiting couples have much the same rights as married couples - possibly precisely the same rights (I don’t know the details). In England, being married or in a civil partnership automatically provides a range of rights which are not available to couples who are not married or in a civil partnership.

Indeed, under UK people can choose whether to secure the legal protections of marriage/civil partnerships.

The circumstances around those laws have changed a lot in my lifetime. When I first started to earn, married women's income was taxed as if it belonged to the husband. Married women did not get sent a tax return, as they were included in the man's.

Tax relief was available on the interest paid on mortgages, up to a maximum of £30k. Married couples had only one allocation, two single people could each have the allowance

My friend, six years older, had to have a man sign the mortgage agreement, even though the men in her life earned much less and could not afford the mortgage on their own

My mother had to resign from her job as a secretary in a large organisation when she announced her engagement.

Long explanation for why I have changed my mind about marriage. No tax to pay in transfers within marriage / civil partnership has been used lots of times to avoid capital gains tax.

The story is clearly different for anyone who puts their own work on hold in order to have DC. I'm still disappointed to find so many girls doing well at school but seeing only family and children on their horizon.

Well. Clearly a conversation needs to be had. I’m finding it difficult to figure out how to bring it up again though if I’m honest.

I will say though I don’t believe it’s for a lack of love.

I’m sad for you that you don’t feel like you can bring it up again. He is your partner, you should be able to vocalise your desires and your fears.

What do you mean by you don’t think it’s because of a lack of love? I can’t say what his feelings are obviously, I would presume he does of course you - but that’s not what this is bout really. It’s about him understanding how important this is to you, against his quite shallow reasoning for not wanting to get married.

Wishing you the best and for the positive outcome you are seeking

^’does of course love you’ sorry this page on mobile is the worst

@doireallyneedaname

Well. Clearly a conversation needs to be had. I’m finding it difficult to figure out how to bring it up again though if I’m honest.

I will say though I don’t believe it’s for a lack of love.

Yeah I'd agree you need to talk about it. You obviously have some concerns if you started a thread on here.

What I'd want to know is what prompted him to say he did want to marry you one day, but is now is making it clear that he doesn't want to. That would be my concern, that you've been misled. The person you share your life with should be willing to give you full honesty and openness, not just tell you what you want to hear.

I think all you can do is be clear and concise and get it out there. He has always known you wanted marriage, told you he would, now says he doesn't want to, and this is concerning to you. And this is a lot more important and relevant than eg travelling, because marriage is an all or nothing whereas travelling isn't.