Marriage

[doireallyneedaname]

My partner & I have been together for 5 years. In the beginning I was open about my wishes to eventually marry & have children.

Through out the entirety of our relationship I have watched so many of both his own friends and mine get engaged and I used to get upset about it. Initially he had said it would happen but he was hardly going to talk to me about it. Then slowly it changed ti “I want to save enough money to do something great, you said in the beginning you’d always wanted a great gesture”, to “there’s a lack of trust from you and I want to fix that before we get married” to now “you know Im not fussed for marriage, it doesn’t mean anything.”

His parents never married and have lived very happily so he doesn’t get it. My parents did marry and I come from a family who see it as a big deal, as do I. It just means something to me and i guess it’s the fairytale I’d always dreamed of.

He says having a baby together should prove his commitment. It’s not really about that, although now I’m starting to wonder how committed he really is. I will always explain that if it’s not a huge deal to him but he’s not against it per se, but it’s a big deal to me, why wouldn’t he just do it for me?

My issue is that I don’t talk about it anymore but I also don’t expect a proposal anytime soon, if ever.

Anyone been in a similar situation?

Having a baby is no commitment to you, it's not even a commitment to the child. Look how many absent and hands-off fathers are running around the world.

If he absolutely will not marry you, then you can go and find a man who will, and can't wait to give you the legal and other commitment you deserve. Let's see how he likes having another man helping raise his child as a result of his own lack of commitment and responsibility.

I think this is how the modern cult of the big proposal really works against women. It gags you from discussing it with him, because you'll "spoil the surprise" and rob you both of some Instagrammable piece de theatre. It allows him to think of it as some frilly extra in his gift. Even though you have borne his child. My advice: forget the proposal. Just have a conversation to settle the question. Not "are you ever going to propose to me", but "Shall we get married".

By the way, you're not the only one - there are threads on Mumsnet about this all the time.

If he's said he will marry at a registry office, then stop being so daft and take him up on it.

For goodness sake, it's your life too. Bloody talk to him instead of sitting around waiting for him to make all the decisions.

Now I've seen your update, I'm even more convinced that you should just put it to him. He's said he'd marry you in a registry office tomorrow = he doesn't want fuss or the pressure to produce a showstopping proposal moment. He might really enjoy planning an intimate, homegrown wedding with you. You might enjoy it too!

I have talked to him about it on many occasions.

Tonight as an example he was talking about buying a house together, we’ve spoken about it a few times but for a few reasons I want to wait - anyway, he was excited about it and telling me all about what we should do and I just said “you should probably marry me before we buy a house together” - his response was “ugh, I’m trying to be productive!” and that was the end of the conversation.

But that's being quite passive about it - why can't you treat it as a joint decision rather than waiting for him to marry you, as if you have no agency.

Instead of "you should probably marry me" which is a bit passive aggressive - "let's get married first"

@doireallyneedaname

I have talked to him about it on many occasions.

Tonight as an example he was talking about buying a house together, we’ve spoken about it a few times but for a few reasons I want to wait - anyway, he was excited about it and telling me all about what we should do and I just said “you should probably marry me before we buy a house together” - his response was “ugh, I’m trying to be productive!” and that was the end of the conversation.

That's not really "talking to him about it", though. It comes across as slipping in a dig at him. And I completely see why you said it - you had a point! But it's not going to get a good reaction. It doesn't feel like the start of a positive, constructive conversation. It feels like "when will you deliver the proposal".

No they’re not, so I know it’s not that!

You’re right. I have had serious talks with him in the past about it - I’ve explained exactly why I feel marriage is important and what it means to me, and the conversation on those occasions ends with him reassuring me that we will indeed one day be married. Then nothing.

I really don’t want to be the one to make this happen, I don’t want to say “let’s get married” because if he does agree to that then how will I ever know it’s because he truly wanted to marry me? I guess it’s starting to look like I don’t have any other choice! And if he says no, well.. I have my answer.

I really don’t want to be the one to make this happen, I don’t want to say “let’s get married” because if he does agree to that then how will I ever know it’s because he truly wanted to marry me? I guess it’s starting to look like I don’t have any other choice! And if he says no, well.. I have my answer.

But you already know he's not fussed on marriage, so what you want is quite unreasonable - you're not only wanting him to agree to it, but to completely reverse his position and want it and be the driver for it. If he's happy to get married, why isn't that enough?

I bet your baby has his surname too.

Marriage does give you more security. Not just financially either. There are all sorts of implications. My friend lost her partner of 20+ years in an accident. When decisions needed to be made at the hospital she was excluded because she was not his next of kin (there was a complicated family dynamic). You need to have a serious talk about this issue, especially as you have a baby now. You can protect yourselves in other ways such as wills and power of attorneys etc but it’s not quite as good.
Is it a ‘wedding’ you want or the security of the legal contract of marriage? Tell him calmly what you want and why.

What's your alternative, though? Continue the relationship knowing with each day that goes by that another day has passed without him feeling the urge to propose? You're in a limbo with this, and it's causing resentment. Get it moving and you won't be forever philosophising about whether he truly wanted it, you'll both be getting on with life and occupying yourselves with whatever new events come along, for better or worse (no pun intended). Best case scenario, you get married (perhaps in a registry office) and live happily and his happiness will be apparent to you, making it pointless to wonder about how he felt about it before he did it.

He’s not going to change his mind. And why would he? He spent 5 years messing you around about marriage - lying, if you call it what it is and pretty disrespectfully - and you planned a baby anyway. You may not know about the legal significance of marriage but I’d bet my house that he does. Once you’ve got a child the marriage ship has probably sailed. Up to you whether it’s a deal breaker.

I question how wonderful a partner is given his flip flopping on something so important to you. And how strong a foundation does your relationship/family have given this apparent lack of trust?

Having a baby together is no proof of commitment to you at all. It's a commitment to your baby.

It was unwise to get pregnant before getting married, if that is important to you. I wouldn't have any more before the issue is resolved, whether that's getting married (not engaged) or an understanding that it won't happen that you feel ok with accepting. Personally I'd find it hard to forgive the bullshitting. If a person knows marriage isn't for them, that's fine, but they should tell the truth.

Out of interest does the baby have his surname?

I agree with all the other comments. You can be married in a registry office 6 weeks from now if you want to be married. If he’s balking at that then he doesn’t want to be married to you. If he’s holding out because you want a proposal at the Grand Canyon and a destination wedding in a remote Indonesian temple then that’s a different issue. Fundamentally, marriage is a legal document, like the deeds to a house or incorporating a company. Nothing more, nothing less.

My partner didn't want to marry me.

It was literally the only thing we ever argued about. He had a nice house and a good job, I have always been self employed and though made good money my job security could be a little iffy. I could see why it was a good idea for him to not marry me. Though he was ready to prove his commitment by having a baby together (🤨)

We were together 5 years before I gave up. I threw down an ultimatum. We get married next summer (in 6 months time) or I'm off, he was very quiet. I just picked a date and started looking at venues and registry offices as though it was just happening. The next morning I told him we were going ring shopping as we had to start telling people as it was only 6 months away. He went along with it. We got married on the date I chose and it was perfect. I never got a proposal but I did get my marriage.

A few months later I was pregnant (I'm in my late 30s) withholding the pregnancy was the only card I held and there was no way I was giving it up for any man without the ring on my finger.

We are happily married and he admits it's the best thing he has every done (har har) Marriage gives you all sorts of legal and financial security, not to mention it just feels bloody lovely calling him my husband.

So yeah as others have said. Plan the wedding and see how he reacts, if he fights you tooth and nail you know it's never going to happen.

He does. yes. I was happy for him to take his name (He didn’t ask for this) although being told when registering him that I’d need to carry his birth certificate should I travel with him alone did wind me up a little.

It sounds like he's deliberately bullshitting about wanting to get married, to avoid telling you he doesn't want to. That's pretty dickish.

*Having a baby makes you very vulnerable. Marriage is designed to provide significant protections for you as the financially more vulnerable partner.

How would having a baby without those protections prove anything other than is not being straight with you*

You assume she is more financially vulnerable. Not always the case.

I made a big mistake getting married. Dh wanted to, and everyone else told me what you have just said, i would be “vulnerable” and needed “protection” of marriage.

Marriage only protects the financial interest of the weaker partner. If you are the one in the better financial position, it’s you who is made vulnerable by marrying.

It was me with the house, the pensions and the savings/ISA’s.. Dh was self employed, and a previous divorce left him with no assets. Now all my assets are joint, and he will likely end up with a significant chunk should we split, or should I die it may all go to him rather than my kids.

You should of got the ring before the baby! Maybe an old fashioned way to think but I didn't want to have kids until I was married. I think having someones baby is the biggest commitment you can ever make to anyone and before we did that I wanted to make sure he was committed to me.

Why did you already have a baby with him if marriage is this important to you?

Why wouldn’t I? I don’t understand those comments - what difference does it make? As it goes my little boy is our world. Marriage is a separate issue entirely to me.

You’ve put yourself and your child in a very vulnerable position with a man who clearly is stringing you along.

“Fairly planned” what on earth does that mean? I’m worried it mean planned by you and he just went along or even worse without his knowledge or consent - which is not planned at all!

How are your finances organised? Are you working since having the child? Full time? Are you on the rental agreement/deeds to your home?

I hasn’t even thought about any legal implications, my feelings are purely emotional you NEED to learn the financial and legal implications to each option - they DO differ greatly in the uk.

This article is a BASIC STARTING POINT there’s a LOT of differences

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/family/living-together-marriage-and-civil-partnership/living-together-and-marriage-legal-differences/

And not just if you split up but also if either of you were to become incapacitated or die.

Everything we have and do is 50/50 but he has made it clear if I don’t want to go back to work he is happy to support us. are your earnings equal or are you breaking the bank trying to keep up with that on maternity pay or benefits?

Whatever he SAYS while things are good between you is not enforceable if things go bad. He has absolutely no obligation to support you in any way, he barely has legal obligations to his child beyond potentially being pursued for a pathetic amount of Cm via cms who I can tell you from experience are pretty bloody useless!

Call his bluff on “I’d marry you tomorrow” book an appointment to set the date - I’m guessing you won’t see him for dust!

I think you’re afraid to be direct because you fear you’ll hear the truth - that he doesn’t actually see you as his life partner

And you gave baby your partner’s name... ohh I wish you had found mn and asked about all this sooo much earlier.

It’s not just the travelling with the little one that can be the issue there are several others you may encounter

It’s been SO much easier for me with a multitude of things - mainly bureaucracy - having the same surname as dd

On these type of threads I try to remember and recount my cautionary tale - well not actually mine a relative’s

Cohabiting, Sahm to 2 young children, not on the deeds to the house, no joint bank account etc

He died unexpectedly young, prior to his death she had got along well with her “in laws” upon his death they invoked their rights to inherit his property meaning she had to leave the family home, go back to work full time while she and dc were still grieving, she wasn’t even properly acknowledged at the funeral!

It’s NOT “just a piece of paper”

As an ex nurse I also saw several occasions where relatives who the patient was not close to ended up being the ones who made medical and even end of life decisions. There’s no legal definition of next of kin but where there’s dispute to cover their own arses legally hospitals will tend to go with the person with the closest legally defined link to the patient.

My sister was not married to either of the fathers of her dc despite wanting to be they both strung her along. I have witnessed her be treated appallingly as an “unmarried mother” due to having a different surname to her kids (3 names in one household) by drs, bank staff, teachers... it’s not right it’s not fair in fact it’s bloody outrageous but it DOES still happen.

I married my ex before having dd, I was clear with him from the start that living together wouldn’t happen without a firm commitment to marry in the near future, and that I’d absolutely not be having dc before marriage and that I wanted to have my first dc before 30 (I have Gynae issues which were undx at this stage but I rightly felt I’d be pushing my luck if I left it after 30. As it turns out totally different medical issue meant I couldn’t have more after dd). This was in general discussions about relationships as we were very young when we met so I wasn’t necessarily thinking I’d be marrying HIM at first.

We were together almost 3 years when he proposed and it was far from a fancy proposal! I’d been supporting him with a difficult situation at work and we were just walking to mine in pouring rain at the time chatting and he just blurted it out! I thought he was being sarcastic at first but then he made it clear he wasn’t he meant it. He’d been planning a “proper” proposal but jumped the gun. What surprised people was the speed we managed it! 3 months white wedding chapel job! (I was raised Catholic but lapsed at this point but I knew it was important to my grans and my parents)

Even though we’re now divorced I’m glad I married as it meant that I did get a small settlement which was enough to help me get dd and I housed and more or less sorted. If I’d NOT been married a load of shit he pulled - emptying joint bank accounts etc - he’d have got away with!

Why wouldn’t I? I don’t understand those comments - what difference does it make? As it goes my little boy is our world. Marriage is a separate issue entirely to me.

Seriously you need to educate yourself on the differences and I don’t mean that in a condescending or patronising way, so so many don’t know the differences or worse believe in non existent legalities - eg “common law marriage” “if we’ve lived together x amount of years I get half the house if we split” just not the case in Uk law