Marriage

[doireallyneedaname]

My partner & I have been together for 5 years. In the beginning I was open about my wishes to eventually marry & have children.

Through out the entirety of our relationship I have watched so many of both his own friends and mine get engaged and I used to get upset about it. Initially he had said it would happen but he was hardly going to talk to me about it. Then slowly it changed ti “I want to save enough money to do something great, you said in the beginning you’d always wanted a great gesture”, to “there’s a lack of trust from you and I want to fix that before we get married” to now “you know Im not fussed for marriage, it doesn’t mean anything.”

His parents never married and have lived very happily so he doesn’t get it. My parents did marry and I come from a family who see it as a big deal, as do I. It just means something to me and i guess it’s the fairytale I’d always dreamed of.

He says having a baby together should prove his commitment. It’s not really about that, although now I’m starting to wonder how committed he really is. I will always explain that if it’s not a huge deal to him but he’s not against it per se, but it’s a big deal to me, why wouldn’t he just do it for me?

My issue is that I don’t talk about it anymore but I also don’t expect a proposal anytime soon, if ever.

Anyone been in a similar situation?

How utterly humiliating op.

Men do not like to be harangued/nagged to do what they don't want to do. He has made it very clear to you that he doesn't want to marry you. He wants to keep his options open for the time somewhere down the line when he may fall spectacularly in love with someone and propose within weeks. It happens all the time and there are threads upon threads on MN with this very scenario.

The usual reason a man will want to marry is to 'own' or territorily mark a woman as his because he is 'punching' with her, ie, better than he (and his friends and family) could possibly have believed would be attracted to him. He has such pride in scoring such a trophy it is like winning first prize. When a man feels like this, the proposal is likely to be quick so that she is off the market to any other man. He has something major/valuable to lose by leaving her 'on the shelf' as it were.

If a man does not want to marry someone then he has rated her second best and does not value her worth as much and has little to lose if she is claimed by someone else. Basically you are in this second category and he does not care enough about you or about your feelings. WAKE UP!

For goodness sake make your baby and yourself number one and start looking for a man who WANTS to marry you and one who CARES about your feelings.

Because you are the one in an extremely vulnerable position you would be better off working full time and becoming the higher earner and getting your own home and a mortgage in your name only, or in your child's name. This is the only way you would be better off by not being married.

Unfortunately the cracks are already very large in your relationship due to the resentment, hurt and unhappiness you feel over this (which you won't be able to mask easily).

How can you possibly want to marry a man who has no desire to marry you??

Where is your self-respect?!

The scenario I know of is where a man did not want to marry. His girlfriend had 2 dc with him and they lived together for 10 years. He then met someone he fell head over heels with and simply left. Married her and had 2 more dc. GF was so hurt and humiliated it drove her to the point of madness at the injustice of it all being left as a single mother. Became the toxic ex even though she could not have been sweeter to him for all those years. She lives in a rented house, no access to his assets or pension. The wife meanwhile has her dc in private education and is a SAHM.

The dc from his gf do not get the fabulous holidays and lifestyle the younger dc get quite simply because he favours the dc of the woman he loved enough to marry.

The whole situation is tragic mainly because the unfairness and injustice of it all is so toxic and it ruined the gf's life as it made her so bitter she couldn't move on.

Stop being so passive. Move back in with your parents and start saving to get your own place.

It’s not a separate issue at all. Why do you think it is? If marriage was important to you the time to push the issue, to give him an ultimatum, was before getting pregnant. You can still decide it’s a big enough deal to split up over but now you’ve got to consider your child and breaking up their family. You can see why he didn’t take you seriously no matter how many times you brought it up when you agreed to have a baby.

Because it was important to you but you’ve already let him get away with not marrying you first and have even given your son his surname!

Yes I agree dreadfully common that men who drag their feet committing to one partner that they may stay with for decades, can then meet the "love of their life" dump the long term partner and marry and have dc very quickly with the new person.

Loads of threads on here and I've seen it happen several times in real life

I agree op is being far too passive and I worry this translates all too well into real life.

Op you need to keep your earnings and earning ability as good as possible, as soon as possible too, if you're not named re your home sort that out, if finances are joint you need an independent bank account too into which any income which is yours or meant for baby is paid, critical illness cover if you can manage it, life assurance, wills....

Are all important once you have dc.

I am unfortunately also aware of a couple who both died young and left 3 little ones behind with no will between them. People were fighting to get custody of the dc who'd not seen them in years as having custody of the dc gave them access to the assets/inheritance! Horrific situation.

Never underestimate how low people will stoop!

I'm from an abusive childhood home and I absolutely did NOT want my parents even having unsupervised access to my dd in the event of ex and I dying. We made arrangements as soon as she was born to ensure that would never happen!

Well it's probably good this is being thrashed out now, rather than ten or twenty years into marriage when he's festering with resentment for having been pressured into doing something he didn't believe in. I don't know what the answer is though.

One little point to clarify though: If you do get him to marry you, it's not "the fairy tale you always dreamed of". Although maybe you need to do it to find that out.

Right. Thanks for the reply but I do find it slightly condescending. You’re assuming my partner is a monster - that’s not the case. I have no concerns whatsoever regarding the financial aspect of things and I know for certain I would never need to “battle” to receive any support if we were to ever end our relationship. That’s just not who he is.

Yes my name is on everything, like I said we are 50/50. If I went back to work full time I could comfortably support myself and baby no problem at all. I also have a very supportive family.

We earn roughly the same, however I have more assets and so as another poster mentioned I am not the “vulnerable” one here.

I don’t know the true reason he feels this way about marriage but I do know that he doesn’t have some sinister plan to leave me high and dry once he’s had enough.

Thanks for the link - I will have a read.

I don’t know how you can be so certain about that. Basic psychology would suggest his parents never marrying and living a perfectly happy life could very much be the reason he doesn’t see it as important.

OMG op, why are you in such denial about the basic undeniable fact that he doesn't care about your wishes or feelings?!

You want to marry a man who has no desire to make you happy.

Think about that.

Okay. Well it all sounds perfect. Except his refusal to marry you. But if that’s not a problem for you and he’s the stand up gent you believe him to be then give up on the idea of marriage and enjoy your life.

I'm surprised at the comments on here!
I've been with my partner for over 12 years and we have 3 children. We have a good life. I'm financially secure (I earn more than him) and I have never wanted to get married.
He would like to get married. He feels I should have the same name as my children (yes, they have their dad's surname as it wasn't important to me) but I don't see this as an issue.
My partner is more traditional and I think assumes and hopes it will happen eventually while I don't have any interest and want to stay as I am.
I have said if (as in your situation) it was an absolute deal breaker and he was desperate to get married I'd do it. I think he hopes I will 'want' to get married eventually rather than feeling like I've been forced or accepted it.
Maybe it's a similar situation for you? Your partner is willing in principle to get married to please you but you'd like him to want to get married. Sadly if it's not important to him you can't force it.
If he's a good father and great in other ways maybe this is something you need to try and accept? Ultimately he doesn't want to and you do so one of you will lose out.

OP you say:

I know for certain I would never need to “battle” to receive any support if we were to ever end our relationship. That’s just not who he is.

and

I do know that he doesn’t have some sinister plan to leave me high and dry once he’s had enough

I've read so many threads over the years where the OP has thought the exact same as you and been quite thoroughly shafted.

Unfortunately the horror scenarios being written about up thread are on the money.

Men have absolutely no problem quickly marrying women they really want, women that wouldn't dream of considering a family without being married.

He has a child with his name.

He's traditional enough for his child to have his name but has bullshitted you for years with his excuses.🙄

He hasn't a notion of marrying you.

If he ever did, highly unlikely he will now, as you compromised what you wanted and had a child with him anyway.

OP, he may be a nice fellow, but his wants and needs come first, because THAT is what is most important to him.

You are young OP now, but 20 years from now you will see the truth.

Men know if they have met the "one" IMO, within 18 months by their 30's, and they wouldn't dream of letting a woman they truly loved get away from them,over marriage.....they would want their ring on it....it's just the way the vast majority of them are.

Whether you are prepared to admit it or not, this is souring your relationship.

Compromising what you really wanted by having a child with someone who won't marry you, is not a good move.

Having a child with a man is a huge commitment for a woman IMO.

Why the hell any woman would do that for a man who doesn't want to marry her?..., is bonkers to me.

Absolute bonkers.

Wishing you well.
Protect yourself.

Did you read my comment OP. He DOES see it as important. That's why he won't simply go out and marry you next week. He doesn't do it because it does have significance! He is entitled to refuse, but he should at least be honest as to the reasons why.

Right. Thanks for the reply but I do find it slightly condescending. You’re assuming my partner is a monster

No I’m assuming he’s a human being with faults, I’m assuming he’s a man operating in a patriarchal society where he’s more protected than you are

That’s just not who he is. oh dear

Do you REALLY think all of us that got screwed over by exes KNEW they would do that? Of course we didn’t! We all believed we were with men who loved and cared for us and at the very least would do right by our dc - go read the relationships board in depth - actually go read reddit or piston heads and read the posts by the MEN TELLING EACH OTHER how to hide assets, empty bank accounts, dodge child maintenance etc seriously it’s rife!

I was once as naive and unaware as you, I got a HARD lesson how not to be EVER again.

If I went back to work full time I could comfortably support myself and baby no problem are you on mat leave so could return to an existing job? Or are you assuming you could easily find a full time job as a single parent in a covid and Brexit recession?

I’m relieved that you have assets of your own, that your name is on joint assets that’s really good.

I've read so many threads over the years where the OP has thought the exact same as you and been quite thoroughly shafted. yep!

Men know if they have met the "one" IMO, within 18 months by their 30's I agree! I’ve been flamed before on here for saying the vast majority of men if they are serious about you will propose within 3 years. I’m 48, so I suspect a bit older than you op with more life experience and I’m sure several other posters similarly sceptical of your partners commitment to you are also older and wiser.

If we’re wrong there’s NO harm in protecting yourself and your child in the ways we’ve recommended you do in the absence of a true commitment from him.

If we’re right... well either you’ll be glad you did or you’ll regret ignoring us.

Balls in your court op. We have nothing to gain from whatever path you take, you and your child are the ones that will be affected

Men know if they have met the "one" IMO, within 18 months by their 30's, and they wouldn't dream of letting a woman they truly loved get away from them, over marriage.

In this case there was no risk of losing her.

If marriage was that important to you, I'm surprised you had a child with him without getting married.

You say he's a good partner....so you have to decide if you'd be happy remaining in the relationship knowing he doesn't want to get married.

I really couldn't do what a pp did, by booking the wedding and telling my partner to start letting people know about it.

For me, he would have to want to get married of his own volition. If he didn't want to ..he wouldn't be the man for me.

should I die it may all go to him rather than my kids.

Good points, @bluebluezoo

As you point out, marriage provides security for the financially weaker partner. Typically, having a child means that the mother will have time off work and thus miss out on earning power including pension, making them the financially weaker partner.

It doesn't stop you leaving your estate to whomsoever you choose. Do you have a will ?

If you own you house as tenants in common, you can leave your share directly to your children.

Why are your suggesting that you cannot do it, so that your estate 'may' go to him?

If you cut your spouse out of your will, it can be challenged.

Do you want to have more children? It's good you're financially equal so far. The gulf can widen as more children come along.

As for your partner being a nice guy, I'm sure he is, but if the relationship does end, you'll be dealing with him as an ex. Probably an ex with a new woman in his life (as men can't seem to bear to stay single for long). Therefore, he will have competing priorities. It's not that he will have suddenly become a monster, it's that he will have different feelings and incentives guiding him.

Why are your suggesting that you cannot do it, so that your estate 'may' go to him?

As @category12 says, it can be challenged. If we divorced, there may well be a 50:50 asset split. Same reasons women get married, he could leave the marriage with a big chunk of everything I had before I met him.

I have a will, but I’m not confident it’s rock solid. So many cases where the widowed spouse has contested and won against children. As mentioned on this thread, nigel havers and lynda bellinghams spouse successfully challenged wills to their favour, instead of the children as the deceased wanted.

Dh has children from a previous relationship, all adults and all settled in life. I worry that should both of us die at the same time, they will be able to challenge for my children’s inheritance on the basis that they are joint assets of marriage.

It would be much easier if we weren’t married. I’d leave everything to the kids, dh with a life interest, and there would be much less chance of using marriage to challenge.

@doireallyneedaname

I don’t know how you can be so certain about that. Basic psychology would suggest his parents never marrying and living a perfectly happy life could very much be the reason he doesn’t see it as important.

This would be more convincing if he hadn't told you that he wanted to propose and get married. Him saying that however is a bad sign.

The women replying to you on here have often seen quite a few threads like this, you see, and a very common theme is men who tell the woman they will propose but they want to have some kind of 'proper' engagement and/or wedding. This always involves saving up for and planning, and never quite happens because there's always a reason not to do a big potentially expensive event: you have a baby, move house, a renovation project or some other pressing use of time and money. If the woman asks about getting married soon she's told he wants to make it special, perhaps even criticised for ruining it. There are so many women on here over the years who have been in this position, and post several years later when no marriage is forthcoming, that it really is a bit of a red flag. The responses you're getting are given in this context.

That's not to say it's inherently wrong not to get married, and if he'd been open right from the start and said he didn't want it because he didn't see it as necessary due to his parents example, that would be completely blameless. He hasn't though, has he? He told you what you wanted to hear for a bit, and now you've got a kid (with his name, which men almost always see as their right) and splitting up would be more of a pain in the arse, he's being honest again.

Marriage is a legal contract.

It gives you both rights over pensions, homes, funerals, etc

His parents may not be marriage but wait until there’s a death and no will and no marriage certificate - that’s when the problems start.

If they own a home death duty is paid on their share of the assets which results in the other having to sell to pay. This would be passed on as a benefit if they were married.
They have no say in the funeral - that right belongs to the next of kin which may well be their parents or siblings - no the live in lover.

We got married because we had kids, we eloped. The financial aspect was the driving factor to protect us both and our children.

You are coming across as incredibly naive. Good luck.

Maybe so, but you can’t believe the only plausible explanation is that he’s “waiting for someone better.”

Thanks for the replies everyone - definitely some food for thought.

I will add though that most of the replies are talking about how vulnerable I would be if he left and this is the reason marriage is so important. I don’t feel I would be put in a vulnerable position financially because I am employed and as I have said I can easily support myself and baby. I have the ability to earn more than he does and I have assets which are nothing to do with him. Should we marry, that would potentially change - so I am the one risking that side of things.

I know there are some red flags but I think “ending my relationship” to find someone else to marry is extreme given we are in love and share a baby together. I don’t want to get married for the sake of it, I want to marry him because I love him and that’s how I imagined my life to be.

The baby was planned - we both wanted a baby but the timing was something I was conscious of, he would have waited but I’m 31 and as you know the risks go up with age. There seems to be some suggestion that he wanted the baby and I did it “for him” and now he’s had his cake and ate it. That’s not the case.

I’d like to think that after all this time I have a fairly good idea of how my partner reacts to situations, although I appreciate couples have split up out of the blue after decades of marriage & I’m not saying that’s not possible I’m just saying that knowing this man, even if that was to happen he wouldn’t leave us high and dry. If not for me then he definitely wouldn’t for our son who he adores.

I can’t see any legal reasons as to why it would be a good idea to marry to be honest, not given our circumstances. It’s an emotional charged one for me.

I really wanted to get married and have always been open about it to my now husband.
He was divorced and really did not want to get married again but I reached the level where it was marriage or I'd be out. Your dream will always be important, so don't tell anyone talk you out of it. If it matters to you, then it matters!
In my case I told him I could not move forward if there wasn't that commitment, I've explained he's always known how I felt and that this wasn't negotiable.
It was up to him just tell me he wouldn't do, so I could move on.
He chose to keep me though and surprised me with a proposal.

So, in a nutshell, I'd say it'll all depend on how much you're willing to stand up for yourself and also how much you'd accept in return.