Husband attacked teenage son

[Throwawaynameforthis]

On Saturday night my husband pinned DS to the floor.

We were playing a family game and DS (14) was being annoying, escalating to rudeness. He accused me of “smacking him” which I absolutely did not do.

I took myself out of the room for a minute and the next thing I hear is H yelling, DD15 shouting at H to stop and DD9 sobbing.

As I walk into room DS is legging it out the house looking terrified, quickly followed by DD. From what I can work out H picked DS up by then lapels and got him on floor and was telling him he’d “show him what a smack is”.

I found DS quickly and then DD and went home. H apologised to the DC but I’m so angry. I don’t know what to do. This has been escalating for months.

Is this it? Is there any recovering from this? For me or the DC?

@Bluntness100

I think if we want to punish every parent who has made the wrong decision in the heat of the moment, I'm willing to bet that every single parent, including every poster on this thread would have been investigated by the police or social services at some point in their life

Genuinely no. And I wouldn’t make the same assumption as you, which leads me to believe that you feel you were doing things to your children that would have been of interest to the police and social services?

Oh FFS bluntness. Every time I see your name on this forum you are being a goody fucker. Just leave people alone. Anyone would think you were the epitome of perfection the way you talk.

[quote trashaccount]@TheImber Her children are at at risk, if he makes the "wrong decisions" in the heat of the moment. If the "wrong decisions" constitute abuse then he cannot be trusted.[/quote]
'At risk'

He has pinned the boy to the floor once in 15 years, after strong provocation over a long period of time that the OP is not going into any detail about, despite being asked repeatedly by a lot of people,

and that's it. No history of violence, no other issues. Just that.

If you think that putting children at risk, then you don't know what risk is.

[quote trashaccount]@justanotherneighinparadise
To be honest if a woman purposely goaded a man over and over again during an argument and wouldn’t let it lie then I also wouldn’t be at all surprised if that level of provocation led to an escalation that could become physical.

"Goading" entails what exactly? There is nothing in the world any of my family could do that would "goad" me into abusing them.[/quote]
Off the top of my head. Jabbing someone in the chest, screaming in their face, throwing stuff. A woman can escalate a situation very effectively just the same as a man can.

@theimber Pinning your child to the floor and threatening them, causing them to run out of the house is an episode of abuse. That puts him at risk. What will DH do next if this method of pushing him down didn't work? You've said his action was out of control, so why would you be able to trust him not to elevate the physical force if he finds out this level didn't work?

Well, we're worried about your 9 year old but the 15 year old can fend for themselves?

Sadly my 30 plus years working with children's services leads me to say the above, on occasion, is true.

@TheImber

after strong provocation over a long period of time that the OP is not going into any detail about, despite being asked repeatedly by a lot of people

I’ve given examples at least twice of what DS’s behaviour has been like. What exactly do you feel hasn’t been answered?

@justanotherneighinparadise

All of this stuff needs relevant context. To be honest if a woman purposely goaded a man over and over again during an argument and wouldn’t let it lie then I also wouldn’t be at all surprised if that level of provocation led to an escalation that could become physical. I would advise LTB because those relationships tend to be volatile and are no good to no one.

Would I think the woman was totally innocent and lay the full blame at the mans door? No I wouldn’t. Everyone needs to take responsibility for their actions here. The teenager needs to understand that if he does the same to someone unhinged he’s going to get a beating. The husband needs to understand that his behaviour was unacceptable and that they need to find new ways to deal with insubordination and disrespect. The OP also needs to take responsibility for how she handled herself in the situation and also how the son has been parented in the past to think his conduct was okay.

There is no point in screaming LTB and blasting a family apart before help has been sought and conversations have been had. Life is just more nuanced than that.

I agree especially with the last paragraph. All this advice to walk out on the marriage- just like that. Split the home up, divide finances, explain to three kids, two of whom are teenagers, that because husband lost his shit with DS it’s all over. How is that going to improve matters? Of course it’s very regrettable how DH got physical with DS. Personally I think it’s more positive to see it as an opportunity for a turning point.DH is looking at getting counselling . DS also needs to look at his behaviour. He might act all defiant if he’s anything like my DSs, but like them he might also take things on board and gradually modify his behaviour. That’s got to be better than blasting the family apart.

Off the top of my head. Jabbing someone in the chest, screaming in their face, throwing stuff. A woman can escalate a situation very effectively just the same as a man can.

@justanotherneighinparadise Those are all examples of being abusive. If you're being abused you have the ability to defend yourself if necessary, but trying to leave the situation should be the first natural step if possible.

[quote trashaccount]@theimber Pinning your child to the floor and threatening them, causing them to run out of the house is an episode of abuse. That puts him at risk. What will DH do next if this method of pushing him down didn't work? You've said his action was out of control, so why would you be able to trust him not to elevate the physical force if he finds out this level didn't work?[/quote]
'Causing them to run out of the house'

Honestly. [Hmm]

The drama on here is better than Eastenders. The boy sounds like an attention seeker who was building up to being aggressive with his mother and sisters and has now just sh*t his pants and been put well and truly back in his place. Teenage boys like to think they are big hard cases, he has just learnt the hard way thats not the case. His dad has probably stopped him having his teeth knocked out by a stranger in a few years time with that lesson.

To be honest it might have been handled differently, but good for OPs husband to teach the kid a valuable life lesson.

Sounds like it might have been the first time in his young life he actually experienced an effective bit of discipline.

[quote Throwawaynameforthis]**@thelmber* Do you think the OPs habit of dealing with her sons bad behaviour and attitude by just 'walking away' won't have possibly had a bigger impact?*

I’ve been on MN long enough to know that I’d be told I was failing to protect my DC and to LTB but I wasn’t expecting to be blamed for walking away

I’d love to know what the more appropriate response would have been [/quote]
A more appropriate answer wouod have been an assertive one @Throwawaynameforthis.
By walking away, you are telling him that you are giving up the ‘fight’ and he is right.

@Throwawaynameforthis you say you've been in mn long enough to know what kind of response to expect. From the 'it's abuse' call the police! To 'it's to be expected'. The actual fact is none of us know your family dynamics. Is DH normally of good character? Have you actually tried talking to him? Family counselling or even family meetings seem like a very good approach. You punishing your husband whilst absolving your son of all responsibility doesn't seem very balanced to me.

Yes, it's an inappropriate reaction and yes in an ideal world it wouldn't have happened. I assure you right. Ow that your husband would not be prosecuted for this incident. It would involve your son making a statement in court against him and rip your family apart. SS leave kids in disgusting situations so they sure wouldn't be doing much in your family.

Having kids is the most stressful thing to survive but you've come this far. It doesn't have to be 'over' and you absolutely can come back from this. DH has already shown he is willing to do something about it. Now what about the rest of you? Get your DS and DH in counselling together. Formulate a plan to work on together for moving forwards. Plan consequences to behaviour which is appropriate and talk about the warning signs. I absolutely wish people didn't throw 'LTB' and 'abuse' into every bloody conversation. It really waters down the message and should wholly be saved for those when it is so important.

He repeated it a couple more times.... I told him not to be ridiculous and then excused myself. I said I was going to the loo. H told him he was being a fool and then DS switched to saying I’d smacked him.

Your son is too old to make a statement like that. Imagine if he'd said it outside the house when you have a job working with children or other vulnerable people ... it would be a professional disaster.
He didn't deserve to be pinned down but he's too told to over exaggerate like that. I know that it's a joke that footballers try and pull that sort of shit but wtf?

for all those calling SS and the police.

Lats week my ds asked if his friend could stay with us after half term 'for a while'

Turns out that he and his dad are not getting on. He is 18. Last week they had a physical fight and his dad punched him. The boy was kicked out. Went to gf for half term. Missed the last day of term.

He told school. Asked if he could work from home at his uncle's house.
School (normally very hot on this sort of thing) has told him if he doesn't turn up for mocks in Nov he will be deregistered. No contact with SS no reporting, so safeguarding initialted etc.

They are spectacularly not interested in teenagers arguing with parents.

I really don't think this is as big a deal as everyone is making out. To me it sounds like a teenager (who is probably the size of a man) pushing his luck with rudeness, accusations and generally awful behaviour that consistently upsets his mother. So the father is probably at the end of his tether because his DS is acting like a bully and terrorising everyone, showed him what can happen when you act like a "big man". He didn't whack him, he just put him in his place, albeit a little roughly. He's probably done him a favour, he might not be so obnoxious to everyone in future.

*To be honest it might have been handled differently, but good for OPs husband to teach the kid a valuable life lesson.
*

I'd be worried that he (ds) might pull the same stunt in the future. Many boys end up bigger than their dads

The boy doesn’t sound like a bully terrorising his helpless mother he sounds like a bit of a tit who needs bringing into line WITHOUT violence

My mother when I was 15, pulled my hair. It was totally out of character, she had never done it before or since. Did I forget to say? I was a total brat as a teenager?

Even then I realised I pushed my mum to her limits. I don't hold it against her now as an adult. We have a good relationship. Your son will be fine OP.

@steppemum

for all those calling SS and the police.

Lats week my ds asked if his friend could stay with us after half term 'for a while'

Turns out that he and his dad are not getting on. He is 18. Last week they had a physical fight and his dad punched him. The boy was kicked out. Went to gf for half term. Missed the last day of term.

He told school. Asked if he could work from home at his uncle's house.
School (normally very hot on this sort of thing) has told him if he doesn't turn up for mocks in Nov he will be deregistered. No contact with SS no reporting, so safeguarding initialted etc.

They are spectacularly not interested in teenagers arguing with parents.

You are absolutely right. SS really do not have any interest in this kind of incident. Which, when you consider the current climate where we apparently have an abundance of starving neglected children, is probably correct. The reality is that there are always finite resources so SS cannot deal with everything. The reality is that this is a family matter for OP and that's where her focus should be. Definitely not in mn where she's being advised to LTB and people are screaming it's abuse and he should be locked up. You'd think nobody ever made mistakes reading this thread.

I'm going to go against the grain here and say OP did the right thing leaving the room as she obviously thought it would help diffuse the situation when the son kicked off over mother.

The DH didn't smack/hit the child. He obviously scared him. Not the same thing

To be honest "obnoxious and rude" behaviour such as the sons displays would have got me a swift clip/smack/shouted at when I was a child. I don't love my parents any less, I don't consider that I was "abused" but it certainly made me think twice about my behaviour.....

And I agree with @Franticbutterfly

@TheImber It did cause him to run out of the house, that is probably the least disputable part of what I said. OP seems upset by the situation and her DH's actions, which I think is justified but she will decide on her own what the next step is.

I hope at least if she decides to move on, she doesn't try and accept this normalisation of assault as punishment.

I'm in two minds... if your DS is incredibly obnoxious and arrogant and doesn't listen when told off then I can see how your husband lost it. He's 14 not a toddler. If he was obnoxious to that degree outside of the home to another male he'd probably get a similar reaction. Obviously it's not ideal but your husband didn't punch him. It will be interesting to see if your DS gets put in his place a bit from this.

Does your husband normally have violent tendencies (has he smacked your DC in the past?) or was he just brought to boiling point by an insufferable teen? If this is out of character for him and he is otherwise a good man I think things could be salvaged. If it's a pattern and as you said likely to escalate further then I would leave.

His dad has probably stopped him having his teeth knocked out by a stranger in a few years time with that lesson

I’d have said the lesson his father taught him was if someone is annoying you to physically attack them.

No contact with SS no reporting, so safeguarding initialted etc

The lad is eighteen, he’s an adult. That’s a fight between two adults. It’s very different to attacking a minor, of which the school would have reported.

I think that your DH is taking things too personally mainly because he has enough saying the same thing again and again. And who could blame him?

On the other side, you are choosing to look at your ds lies saying that they are just hyperboles etc.. They are not. They are lies constructed to try and wrinkle out of what should be automatic. But you are trying too chose your battles’ and make things the least confrontational as possible (which can be helpful up to a point).

Whatever you are BOTH doing isn’t working. In part because your aims are too different and the messages you are giving are in opposition to each other (see the lie/hyperbole). But also because neither of you can be assertive to make your point clear to your ds. Your DH is trying to I pose stuff. And you are trying the opposite of the nice (wishy washy) technique to avoid confrontation. There should be no discussion about filling or emptying the dishwasher. And both of you should be able to make that message across in a way that isn’t confrontational but at the same time says that you mean business.

On thé other side, your ds doesn’t seem to have clocked that his behaviour is unacceptable. Or he has if he never acts like this at school or With his friends. But somehow has learnt it’s ok to be like at home....

That’s why my advice (and I stand by it) is for all of you to have counselling/parenting/anger management classes. You need to break that cycle where you ds is just a pain in the arse for things that should Not have any discussion on at all. And both you and your DH sign the same tune and express yourself in appropriate ways.

@BadDucks

That’s it exactly. Not terrorising me or anyone else just being a prat.

@TicTacTwo yep you’re right he is absolutely too old to be saying stuff like that. Not that it makes much of a difference but I know he’d never say that stuff out of the home. He likes provoking a reaction.

Believe it or not I think he respects me hugely - he wants to follow my career path, etc. He’d never jeopardise or hurt me.