Husband attacked teenage son

[Throwawaynameforthis]

On Saturday night my husband pinned DS to the floor.

We were playing a family game and DS (14) was being annoying, escalating to rudeness. He accused me of “smacking him” which I absolutely did not do.

I took myself out of the room for a minute and the next thing I hear is H yelling, DD15 shouting at H to stop and DD9 sobbing.

As I walk into room DS is legging it out the house looking terrified, quickly followed by DD. From what I can work out H picked DS up by then lapels and got him on floor and was telling him he’d “show him what a smack is”.

I found DS quickly and then DD and went home. H apologised to the DC but I’m so angry. I don’t know what to do. This has been escalating for months.

Is this it? Is there any recovering from this? For me or the DC?

I think you and your Dh both need parenting help in order to help DS. the DS's behaviour sounds like it is at the far end of 'cheeky' and 'normal teen' and very disrespectful (despite the fact he's succeeding in life otherwise and not 'in trouble' outside the home) both you and Dh need to deal with it - dh by being much calmer and less emotional and dealing with anger issues but also perhaps you by being firmer.
It's great dh went to counselling, but that's not parenting - did whoever he agreed to see have the background to help with parenting teens?

I agree that the reaction of your dh is not excusable but unless he has history of 'losing it' I would be able to forgive him if he moves forward in a way to ensure it doesn't ever happen again.
(however if it emerges that he's always been angry and only hasn't lost it before because you all tread on egg shells then I take all that back).

@TheImber I think you're indirectly mentioning me so I'll respond. I don't agree with inflicting pain on children in any situation - spanking or time outs will not have been the only two options available for your DD. Where I am spanking or smacking is illegal, and I imagine the rest of the UK will follow suit at some point - but even if not, I fundamentally don't agree with the idea of causing a child pain for the purposes of control.

The only response where it would have been acceptable to pin a fourteen year old down in my book is where they were seriously aggressive (to a point of bodily injury) or a danger to themselves. And immediately calling the police would also be necessary - not for a child who's "been a bit rude".

@AlexaShutUp

But that is one step away from also saying - teenage girls, it isn't sensible to walk down a dark alley on your own, if you do you might get attacked - no, not allowed to say that, it is victim blaming.

If a girl walks down a dark alley on her own and gets raped, do you think she is in any way responsible for that? Personally, I blame the rapist 100%

Yes, of course I teach my dd that she needs to take precautions to stay safe, but the fact is, she should not have to. A girl should be able to walk around without fear of being attacked and I would never feel that a victim deserved it or was "asking for it" (to borrow a phrase that has been used on this thread) because of where she was, what she was wearing etc. I really thought we had moved on from such antiquated views.

Same in this situation.The DS should certainly learn to regulate his behaviour so that he doesn't come across as an obnoxious PITA. That doesn't mean that he was "asking" to be assaulted or that he was in any way to blame for his father's abusive behaviour. His father is solely responsible for his actions.

It's an interesting argument though, and one that is frequently used by abusers to blame their victims. Like the violent husband who only beats his wife because she provokes him....

no, sorry, I expressed myself badly.

What I have seen often on mn is the idea that we shouldn't teach our girls that it isn't sensible to walk down an alleyway late at night. The reason given is that if they are raped it is the fault of the rapist (totally agree, 100%) and therefore we shouldn't teach them not to walk down the alley, as then they will think they are at fault = victim blaming

I was trying to say (badly I realise) that there is something wrong in our understanding of victim blaming. That we should be able to teach one side of it without it being mistaken for the other side.

So, to use the above example, we should be able to teach our girls about being safe without it being taken as teaching them it is their fault if they get attacked.

Same with the ds in this scenario, we should be able to teach him that he shouldn't provoke others, without it meaning that he is to blame if someone attacks him.

We somehow have lost that balance. That is really evident on this thread, anyone who suggests that the teen is being a pain is told they are victim blaming, but actually both are true.
The ds was being a pain, and the dh was out of order to pin him to the floor. The dh should not have pinned him to the floor, but that doesn't mean that ds should get away with being a pain.

Anyone who tries to say - well, as a result of this ds has also learnt that provoking gets a reaction is labelled as victim blaming, even if they also clearly say the dh is wrong.
Both things can be true at the same time. Life isn't so black and white, more than one thing can be learnt.

My fried's second son was horrible teenager (DS1 was ok). When her DH tried to square up to him, mother would always be on her son's side. After particularly bad argument and a bit of physical scuffle, mother threw father out. Result: younger son is in prison now, whereas, an older son is doing very well. Mother is very lonely and wishes she hadn't thrown her DH out, as the boy needed discipline at that age and stage in his life.

Abused children very often end up in prison in later life. The solution is not for the abuser to hang around for longer in order to show the kid some more discipline. Sadly, even if the mother eventually kicks the abusive father out, in many cases, the damage has already been done.

Yeah so the son behaved inappropriately and in an odd way which needed to be subsequently addressed - e.g. why was he saying his mum hit him?

This clarification made me lose any kind of understanding for DH in this situation, as other than DS lying (which is an issue, I agree) the situation seemed to be relatively light hearted and resulted in DS getting pushed to the floor and threatened to be hit. There was no imminent danger or monstrous build up on that specific occasion, from what has been said.

[quote trashaccount]@TheImber I think you're indirectly mentioning me so I'll respond. I don't agree with inflicting pain on children in any situation - spanking or time outs will not have been the only two options available for your DD. Where I am spanking or smacking is illegal, and I imagine the rest of the UK will follow suit at some point - but even if not, I fundamentally don't agree with the idea of causing a child pain for the purposes of control.

The only response where it would have been acceptable to pin a fourteen year old down in my book is where they were seriously aggressive (to a point of bodily injury) or a danger to themselves. And immediately calling the police would also be necessary - not for a child who's "been a bit rude".[/quote]
@trashaccount

But you haven't addressed my point about which line of punishment objectively causes more harm.

'I'm sure there must have been other options' just doesn't cut it.

The point still stands that you and those who think like you would agree that timeouts are preferable to physical chastisement, when actually if we wanted to take it to extremes, a timeout is a form of psychological torture.

Its very easy to take the line of 'I don't agree with causing physical harm' but unfortunately we don't live in a world made of sunshine of rainbows.

Parents have used physical punishment for thousands of years, with great success when applied properly.

I draw a strong distinction between justified, calm smacking of a bottom or leg as part of a thought through punishment plan, when other lesser options have failed, and lashing out wildy in anger or punching kicking etc, which is never acceptable.

The dh should not have pinned him to the floor, but that doesn't mean that ds should get away with being a pain.

Yes, I agree that the teen shouldn't get away with obnoxious behaviour. However, the fact that he was being an annoying little git is a totally separate issue in my view. Here, it is being used as a mitigating factor in the father's response - essentially as a means of excusing the father's behaviour - but I believe that a grown man should be sufficiently in control of his emotional reactions to be able to refrain from assaulting his son no matter how infuriating the kid might be.

It's a bit like your rapist analogy. Yes, I teach my dd to be safe, but if she were unfortunate enough to be attacked, I wouldn't expect her attacker to be let off the hook or given a lesser sentence because she happened to be walking down a dark alley at the time.

[quote trashaccount]@MonicaBelulaGellar I'm saying that that strain of logic is exactly what abusers say to their victims. I have no idea of your personal life, but I wanted to let you know that that mentality is siding with abusers.[/quote]
I'm not siding with anyone. Her husband isnt an abuser as you keep saying over and over. I'm saying that hes a dad who got pushed to the brink and snapped. And I'm not saying what he did was right either, before you try and insinuate anything else about me.

From the OP's update I really don't see any need to be pinning this kid to the ground. It sounds like he was playing up a bit just like every teenager who ever drew breath. I can't help but think the situation would have been handled for more effectively/diffused if mr tough guy was not in the room.

@toxtethOgradyUSA

From the OP's update I really don't see any need to be pinning this kid to the ground. It sounds like he was playing up a bit just like every teenager who ever drew breath. I can't help but think the situation would have been handled for more effectively/diffused if mr tough guy was not in the room.

But she doesnt handle the situation does she? She walks away.

@trashaccount

And its also not causing children pain for purposes of 'control' its doing it to teach, to prevent greater pain and suffering later in life, that will definitely not be being doled out by their parents!

Some children respond and learn lessons in different ways, what works for one does not always work for the other. To say that physical chastisement is always wrong is a faulty position to take and ignores the far greater harm a child suffers in the long run when they grow up with no boundaries.

I draw a strong distinction between justified, calm smacking of a bottom or leg as part of a thought through punishment plan
A "punishment plan?" Wtf!! This is getting weird now Thelmber

@AlexaShutUp

The dh should not have pinned him to the floor, but that doesn't mean that ds should get away with being a pain.

Yes, I agree that the teen shouldn't get away with obnoxious behaviour. However, the fact that he was being an annoying little git is a totally separate issue in my view. Here, it is being used as a mitigating factor in the father's response - essentially as a means of excusing the father's behaviour - but I believe that a grown man should be sufficiently in control of his emotional reactions to be able to refrain from assaulting his son no matter how infuriating the kid might be.

It's a bit like your rapist analogy. Yes, I teach my dd to be safe, but if she were unfortunate enough to be attacked, I wouldn't expect her attacker to be let off the hook or given a lesser sentence because she happened to be walking down a dark alley at the time.

I agree with you Alexashutup

as I made clear in my post.

My point was that both are true and pointing one out does not mean that the other is not true.

@thelmber
"I draw a strong distinction between justified, calm smacking of a bottom or leg as part of a thought through punishment plan, when other lesser options have failed, and lashing out wildy in anger or punching kicking etc, which is never acceptable."

Did DH's actions seem justified, calm or part of a thought through punishment plan? We can disagree on corporal punishment if you'd like to, but our personal viewpoints on raising children doesn't come into play. I can have my views that you shouldn't physically hurt your children, but my main focus here is that the fact that in my eyes DH's actions were totally unacceptable as an event in an of itself.

Not condoning it, but looking at the bigger picture and context, it does sound like DS needed to be confronted on his behaviour. This isn't an uncommon scenario and seems like everyone is past it except you. Family therapy??? I wouldn't throw my marriage away for this incident given what you have said!

I find this thread almost impossible to read as so much of it mirrors my experience with XH and DS.

All children and teenagers can be a complete PITA. Our job as parents is to find ways to make sure they get over themselves and turn into reasonable adults. The way they learn this is by us modelling reasonable adult behaviour (which doesn't mean parents are never allowed to feel angry or frustrated).

In the OP's situation (and in mine, too) the daughters are collateral damage. One screaming at her father to stop, and the other sobbing.

They do not deserve to witness a parent laying in to their sibling.

One instance of this probably won't damage them. But if you say that your H's behaviour has been escalating, then they will be damaged at some level.

My DDs are damaged by having grown up experiencing a parent - who should be protecting their children - harming one.

I only wish I had left XH the first time it happened.

I can assure you that the police and social services would categorise this assault as abuse

That sounds as if you are giving a professional opinion. Can I ask if you work within the police force or children's services?

There's been one incident, in which the DS wasn't hurt. I certainly wouldn't throw the DH out. A long calm discussion about how to handle DS and his bad behaviour, apology to DS, discussion with DS about his bad behaviour, possibly family counselling, etc.Throwing the dad out would do serious long term damage to the family.

[quote trashaccount]@thelmber
"I draw a strong distinction between justified, calm smacking of a bottom or leg as part of a thought through punishment plan, when other lesser options have failed, and lashing out wildy in anger or punching kicking etc, which is never acceptable."

Did DH's actions seem justified, calm or part of a thought through punishment plan? We can disagree on corporal punishment if you'd like to, but our personal viewpoints on raising children doesn't come into play. I can have my views that you shouldn't physically hurt your children, but my main focus here is that the fact that in my eyes DH's actions were totally unacceptable as an event in an of itself.[/quote]
I'm not saying OPs husband was definitely right, all I'm saying is he wasn't automatically wrong just because he pinned the boy to the floor.

You are probably right that he could have dealt with it in a different, better way, however with no support from his wife, who by her own admission 'walks away' from these challenging situations, what other options did he have I wonder (a rhetorical question because we don't know the specific details, just OPs version)

You are right that both parents immediately dealing with the behavior in a joined up way that excluded him from the family activity and prevented the escalation in the first place would have been better, but it sounds like OP has let the behaviour go unchallenged for far too long, so something was eventually going to come to a head.

As I said earlier, sounds like no real harm done, maybe the family need to look more closely at the way they deal with difficult teenage behaviour to prevent it going this far in the future.

Those posters saying she should kick him out, call social services etc are hindsight heros who need to get a grip.

What do people think SS would do? I'd be very surprised if they took any action, bearing in mind the child is 15.

@Throwawaynameforthis - it sounds like you and your dh disagree on what counts as trivial. The fact you are so angry and shocked at your dh indicates to me that he has never resorted to such an extreme outburst before, though, so he must have managed at least 15 years of never behaving like this around his family before now. On that basis, given your dh’s obvious acceptance his outburst was extreme, willingness to engage with outside help and his apology, I think it only fair that you give him a chance to rectify it rather than shut him out. You could also consider that maybe the two of you clearly not being in agreement on what is an acceptable level of rudeness is not helping the situation, and that maybe it isn’t always the case that your dh is in the wrong to find certain behaviours unacceptable, just that his approach to dealing with them is counterproductive (but maybe sometimes yours is, too?). The danger at the moment, because you both respond so differently to the same behaviours, is that neither of your approaches is working, you’re just becoming more and more extreme versions of yourselves to counteract what you believe to be the ineffectiveness or harmfulness of the other person’s approach, but actually, the mixed messages you are sending to your ds are part of the problem.

The most important thing here is that DH is seen to be clearly and genuinely sorry, aware that he has made a massive mistake and signs up to an anger management and parenting skills programme that will teach him how to cope better with his own emotions and a willful, difficult teenager.

Because even if you end your relationship, he'll still be a Dad who needs to learn these vital skills.

[quote Walkaround]@Throwawaynameforthis - it sounds like you and your dh disagree on what counts as trivial. The fact you are so angry and shocked at your dh indicates to me that he has never resorted to such an extreme outburst before, though, so he must have managed at least 15 years of never behaving like this around his family before now. On that basis, given your dh’s obvious acceptance his outburst was extreme, willingness to engage with outside help and his apology, I think it only fair that you give him a chance to rectify it rather than shut him out. You could also consider that maybe the two of you clearly not being in agreement on what is an acceptable level of rudeness is not helping the situation, and that maybe it isn’t always the case that your dh is in the wrong to find certain behaviours unacceptable, just that his approach to dealing with them is counterproductive (but maybe sometimes yours is, too?). The danger at the moment, because you both respond so differently to the same behaviours, is that neither of your approaches is working, you’re just becoming more and more extreme versions of yourselves to counteract what you believe to be the ineffectiveness or harmfulness of the other person’s approach, but actually, the mixed messages you are sending to your ds are part of the problem.[/quote]
This is a very fair summary.

This has been escalating for months

Can you clarify this?

It doesn't sound like a one off, it sounds like it's been getting worse and worse which is why you've said escalating.

In the atmosphere you've described, now that he's pinned your son to the floor and made him scared to the point he ran out of the house followed by your poor 9 year old daughter, it seems pretty likely this dynamic will end up with a physical fight. Punches thrown etc.

@TheImber OP went to the toilet, when the situation didn't seem severe. I agree she potentially could have done something differently, but her husband's bad behaviour is in no way her fault. He made the choice on his own (which I would consider abusive) when there was no danger or immediate risk.