Dating Thread 195 - Level Dean, home of serious women who actually talk

[Dancerinthemoonlight]

The Rules:

1. The first rule about the dating thread is don't talk about it with people you're dating.
2. Develop a thick skin.
3. Do not invest emotionally too soon.
4. It's all BS until it actually happens.
5. Trust your gut instinct.
6. People vanishing, lying & being generally weird is not your fault.
7. Know your worth.
8. If it's not fun, stop.
9. Loo update is mandatory.

10. No dating the thread. 11. Treat others as you'd like to be treated 12. Any relationship you have that could get ruined by having a conversation about your feelings, standards and/or expectations wasn't really stable enough to begin with 13. The things you choose to ignore/ tolerate now are the reasons you will break up in the future 14. OLD can get very time consuming. Keep doing other activities you enjoy.

Optional: Please give your irons (potential dates you are talking to) nicknames like Mr Scottish. Initials are allowed (Mr S) when you are an item

Oh bless you all. What a good lot you are sharing thoughts.

@freelancedolly "generous in that dept" has tickled me and had me chuckling all the way to work.

@TheCatWithTheHat I'm v sorry to hear of latest developments and for me that would be extra hard to deal with rejection hearing 'you're lovely and I fancy you but I'm just not into it...' what the hell? What is it about me you don't like then? And I think you said you'd been together for a year - that's quite a long time for her to make like things were all rosy (albeit you noticing the lack of returned compliments etc)

It goes back to what we were saying down thread about not being everyone's cup of tea but awful being told by someone you felt you had a future together and without warning finding yourself single again initially due to their stressful lives but actually just an excuse to be let go of. I'm sorry.

When this happened to me in Feb after a couple of months of exclusive dating it was a horrible kick in the gut plus like the other theme I genuinely felt he was punching above his weight with me - he had teeny willy, a not great bod etc etc Took me a good few weeks of being devastated before I was able to move on

Look after yourself.

Using your situation as a cautionary tale as despite lack of being given oral thus far I am suddenly horribly overinvested in MrVW
I wasn't until Mon night when we had a long phonecall about his leggy blonde abusive beauty of an ex. Out it all came. They were together for over two years & split very very recently with a huge unexpected bang.

Resulted in my not sleeping a wink that night & recognising all sorts of big feels (anger towards her, incredulous that she could be such a cow to such a great bloke, acceptance that he must have had some heady times with her, plus so many parallels with my own XH)

Need to really sit on my hands and let it roll forwards at a relaxed pace that works for him and remember that at any moment I could be told he's just not into it and back I will go to the apps.

Tough because I really think he's amazing. He ticks all of the boxes on my very long 'things I like in a bloke' and that's a first. Some are pretty niche.
When we were together (and and drunk admittedly) I had a thought that I felt like I'd met my twin - not an identical twin but a fraternal one - so much fundamental things in common. Then I remembered that's classic infatuation & it takes bloody ages for two people to get to know each other.

Love the 'if you're having sex you should be able to talk about sexual stuff' that's wise advice.

Thanks @WeWantTheFinestWines and @SortingItOut I had not refreshed to see these comments.

I think I find receiving oral a tiny bit awkward and annoying but if a guy is really into it then great I'll happily oblige and 'let him' have his special time down there
I don't believe it's a deal breaker but also curious to think of his ex who seems to be occupying my thoughts way too much and what did they do together.

Have only been with him a few times so will (a) hope I see him again as never a given
(b) continue to observe & discover what we enjoy doing together

Thank you everybody for your supportive messages from yesterday! I had a lovely long bath last night, so didn't check MN.

I have spent much of my life wondering if I'm unloveable, or perhaps very difficult to love, or something - I'm quite sensitive and a bit mixed up, but with the appearance of a very confident and assertive person - and I think that combination can be quite difficult for many people!

^This is how I feel, exactly.

ruralbliss, he doesn't HAVE to give you oral if neither of you are into it! I only like it if the bloke I'm with is reasonably skilled. (great thing about having sex with men from Fab- they all seem to be pretty good. They must have read the manual properly! ).

Mr Double Decker's coming round for a cup of tea in a minute, which is nice. Living where I do, having somebody really local to me is a rare treat.

@Ruralbliss Thanks, it is quite hard to process - I've been thinking back to our time together over the last 9 months, and until recently it was good. No sign of any lack of feelings when I saw her last a couple of weeks ago - she was just as affectionate, and the sex was just as good and intimate as usual. She didn't get in touch as much as the first 3-4 months, but I put that down to things being busier with work for her, and needing to spend more time with her daughter. I feel a bit angry now as well as upset, but I know that's just part of the healing process.

Maybe it's just part of the way she's dealing with her emotions about her daughter, or maybe she just wasn't in to me from day one and I was just a convenient way for her to have some no-strings fun, but then decided to end it when she realised I was getting more attached. I had been making more of an effort of the last couple of months to show her that I thought about her, e.g., flowers, thoughtful gifts, telling her I missed her. Maybe that scared her off.

If I'm honest, she would have been the ideal FWB, which I think is what she wanted - although we never actually discussed it (I think I was scared of hearing the answer to be honest). I just found myself feeling like I wanted more, but deep down I don't think I saw a long-term future with her but enjoyed her company too much to just walk away. I think that comes back to the point that others have made about being able to walk away when something isn't quite right - it's easier to take the pain then, than let things drag on and get hurt more.

I feel guilty about even thinking that her daughter was just a convenient excuse to end things, but I do wonder if that is the case. Or even if someone else is involved. I have no idea if she was still using the app, although I did notice a few months ago that her profile had been slightly updated, and there was one time she showed me something on her phone, and quickly pulled it away as what seemed like a video of her was playing when she went in to the photos app. I noticed also that she's often on WhatsApp for long periods of time, but sometimes wouldn't message me for 3-4 days.

Apologies for the long post - I guess I'm just venting a bit. I think the lessons I need to take from this relationship are:

1. Don't be afraid to ask where the other person thinks it's going.
2. If your gut tells you something isn't quite right, it is usually true.
3. If things aren't right, get out sooner rather than later as the pain will only get worse the longer you leave it.
4. I'm not really cut out for a FWB - I get too attached.

And in reply to your question, I love giving oral for several reasons. Partly as I'm sometimes more of a sprinter than a marathon runner when it comes to penetration so this helps prolong things, partly as I love giving my partner pleasure and also as I just love the sensation/taste.

Fortunately for me, my previous partners have all enjoyed it - it would be a bit of an issue if someone didn't really like it, as I wouldn't enjoy it if I felt they were just letting me do it for myself. However that's just me, and everyone is different!

It comes back to what we've been discussing already in the thread about working out if someone is the right person to meet your needs, and you theirs, and whether you should stick things out if it's clear from the start that there are incomatibilities.

@TheCatWithTheHat you sound very level headed and not at all ranty considering the circs. Feeling for you as that's a pretty long time to be together.

Did you ever discuss the nature of your relationship or let it move forward with assumptions that you had something long lasting.
I don't think I've discussed relationships apart from 'You are The One!' style declarations from narcissists who detract their statements later.

Thanks for oral views from a bloke's perspective very insightful.

I'm adding it to my ongoing log of observations (genuinely start one of these each time I start dating someone these days - very useful to see all the minor things adding up and when things were first observed) with no plans to discuss as far too British unless the right occasion arises. Don't feel like I'm missing out but this may change. Maybe it indicates early spottings of selfishness. Time will tell.

I agree, it’s hard to get discussions of how things are going without feeling too intense or dramatic early on (and often people’s words don’t tie into their actions)

As @Ruralbliss
observed a lot of people who are “verbose and good at declarations/words” are also controlling narcissist types you don’t want anyway who will use words to manipulate you.

I’m definitely trying to learn more “soft ways” of communicating or opening up emotional discussions without being too “black or white”.

I’m literally useless when it comes to things like this but still time!

And I agree “unspoken assumptions” often occur until things blow up or misunderstandings happen

I’m going to try and use open questions like “how’s things going for you with our dating so far?” with MrC when he gets back.

I do think the “basics” have to be there first though - I’m comfortable having this discussion with MrC (unless he significantly changes his communication style) because he’s always been reliable/gets back straight away and instigates messages/positive about our interaction/compliments me lots and asks lots of questions. So it feels natural being open with him.

With a lot of dates I’ve had over the last few years I wouldn’t have wanted to communicate about my feelings or thoughts because deep down I knew we weren’t compatible, or they were only interested in me because I looked a certain way.

Sorry to interrupt the oral conversation. Very interesting!

Over last two days I have found myself spooked by some one I matched with for the first time after one and off old
This bloke was very local so I thought I'd just chat you never know. It was fine at the start. Then he's started to send the longest messages ramblings ever and was clearly in well/ anxiety / paranoia etc. So I couldn't just block so tried to just be a word of encouragement and reassurance of life in general. The ramblings continues then he asks me to meet. So I said that I wasn't meeting anyone at this moment and really was thinking of coming off old. He's replied saying he was thinking the same
I've hid my profile for a while as I live in such a small town. Everyone knows someone!
I knew there was something wrong when he said 'nite' but couldn't just block as he obs going through a bad time

Lessons learnt. Which I had let lapse. Selection criteria review and review again

@TheCatWithTheHat you sound like you’ve got it worked out which is great. Assume that what you’re actually feeling may not align to what you’re saying atm though. I’ve had lots of times like that. I’m deep within ‘how the hell does my abusive ex have a girlfriend when I can’t get anyone to be with me post 6 months’ pit

@daisymat my really good mate has started OLD after 12 years of singledom and ended up in a convo with a guy who was clearly at the end of his wits as felt she ought to support him. I'm guessing there's a lot of mental health issues 'out there' and it's not our job to solve randomers off the internet's issues.

@LongtimelurkerL My extensive analysis tells me abusive fuckers are undiscerning when it comes to choosing and acquiring new 'supply' they turn on their charm, flash their smiles, give hot sex, lovebomb and a new bf/gf is hooked.

Being discerning and comfortable with yourself alone is where the non-mentalists are at.

@Ruralbliss Thanks. We did pack a fair bit in to those 9 months considering most of it was during lockdown, and the days she wasn't child free or working so I'm feeling quite sad about it still. However I've found messages to friends dotted through the year saying how I wasn't sure how I felt about her, and that I didn't think it would go anywhere, and it's only been the last couple of months where I think I started to develop stronger feelings.

We never really spoke about where it was going. I remember one of the first questions she asked me was what I was looking for, and I told her - dating, see how it goes and hopefully a relationship. She never replied when I asked her the same question back.

We just kept on arranging the next date soon after the previous one, so never had anything planned more than 1 date ahead. But I never really felt worried by that as until 2 weeks ago, she'd always suggest the next date she'd be free very soon after the previous date had ended. But at the start, we saw each other sometimes once or twice a week, and towards the end it was once every 2-3 weeks.

Saying that, there were clues from the start - she mentioned several times that her normal life was on pause during lockdown, so it was an opportunity for her to enjoy herself with me and forget about the stress of her life. As life got back to normal, she didn't have as much free time so things tailed off a bit. She'd only just come out of a divorce, and I was the first guy she met from the app, and maybe she just wanted a bit of fun to enjoy her new single life. She even thanked me in her last text for awakening her sexually again!

At times I did want to ask where she saw "us" going, but I think deep down I knew the answer and didn't want to hear it.

I know you’re right @Ruralbliss but can’t help thinking my small human might prefer ‘family life’ to just plain old me. Makes me feel like a failure

@LongtimelurkerL You're right - my head and heart aren't quite in agreement at the moment, but I think I'm slowly coming round to the idea that this is for the best. Doesn't make it hurt less, but at least I'm not tearing myself apart convinced she was The One.

I've felt the same about my ex - it's really unfair isn't it. She dumped me 18 months ago, and was with someone else within a week or two (I'm 99% sure there was some overlap though). Yet I've struggled through countless "no spark" dates, and a few heartbreaks over the last year and a half.

I've decided to get back on the dating horse, and already have a lunchtime coffee date lined up for tomorrow, and another on Saturday. I matched with Miss H the day after I was dumped by "the one who got away" who broke my heart at the start of the year (some of you may remember my anguished posts at the time!). So hopefully this is a good omen!

@LongtimelurkerL pretty sure you're wrong there. Bet your small human is loving the cosy two-some you have. Suspect introducing a third person into that dynamic would be a major big deal for small one so extra important it's someone right for you and mega decent.

I'm lucky in that my kids are all teens so I'm definitely not shopping for someone to parent them but ultimately they come first and it's an interesting milestone when someone I'm dating gets to finally meet my kids. For the record the three times this has happened my kids sussed them as being nobs pretty quickly as didn't have my lurve-goggles on. None of them lasted very long after that.

OLD is definitely a marathon not a sprint (but not the kind @TheCatWithTheHat was referring to earlier 🤭) it's a long term project with clear goals in mind.

@TheCatWithTheHat your points 1-4 are very timely for me this week especially 2 and 3. As I posted last week Mr German didn’t want to meet at the weekend and then didn’t message at all. I sent him a short text Sunday just checking in how was weekend, seeing if his work situation was resolved etc - got an equally short reply fairly disengaged I felt. And then nothing since
So it appears my gut was right and he was fading things out! Why can’t men just be honest and say that they aren’t feeling it anymore. This is the second time this has happened with someone I thought I had something nice with.
In one way I’d love to ask why he has chosen the ghosting option but it’s not worth it is it?😬
Once again I’ve archived the chat and am trying to keep busy to take my mind off him. Of course I’m thinking what did I do wrong 😑

Oh blimey @TheCatWithTheHat you've weirded me out a bit as trying not to worry this is how it will pan out with MrVW with our weekly dates and fun times but no assurance that we're after the same things or that he's as into me as I am him.

Bloody hell. Grrr. Will have to stay in the present, gird my loins, develop a thick skin.

Nice work that you have dates lined up. This is the way I deal with heartbreak and rejection too. Beware the dire first date which has you weeping on the return journey as they were nothing in comparison to recent love-interest.

Best of luck and let us know how you get on with them.

What the hell @Mayzee Mr German has gone off the boil and ghosted you?! That's horribly crappy news. I'm so very sorry. What a bastard for choosing the shitty cowardly way by not messaging.

How long had you been seeing each other?

I'm amazed people can be so heartless.

I feel the same @Mayzee why did my guy bother saying ‘I will let you know’ if he meant ‘I have no intention of seeing you again’ - when I don’t want to see someone again I just say it - so much better. Sorry to say but I do think it’s more a cowardly man thing than a woman thing.
Try to be strong all and think of all we’re learning

Ha ha, whoops, I think Mr Double Decker kind of tried to have the talk with ME this afternoon....He was just round for a cup of tea, genuinely just a cup of tea- our conversation did get round to things of a sexier nature eventually, but by then it was nearly time for me to do the school run!

But anyway, he's got verbal diarrhoea - I can hardly get a word in edgeways at the best of times- and launched into a massive "Well, I don't know where this is going, and you probably think I'm too old anyway, and it's not that I've got much to offer at the moment, but I do think you're amazing....", at which point I just about managed to interject with a "Friends with benefits then?", which seemed to satisfy him. To be honest, it's probably the talking over me and interrupting that puts me off viewing him as a potential relationship.

@Ruralbliss oh I'm sorry if I've weirded you out.

I've been where you are with someone I was dating a year ago, who I thought was my soulmate. She ticked virtually every box, and I fell for her really quickly. Not helped by things she was saying to indicate she felt the same way and saw a future for us. But my gut was telling me something wasn't quite right, and in the end it was right.

It's tough though, as you need to spend time with someone to get to know them, and them you. And if you like them, the longer you spend time with them the more attached you get. Then the more hurt you are if it doesn't work out. But you can't go into it being scared of getting hurt I think, otherwise you won't be able to open up to them as much.

I hope things do work out for you!

@Mayzee sorry to hear about Mr German. It is cowardly and lazy of him to just ghost you, and I'd be tempted to call him out on it. I've done that a couple of times with women who ghosted me, as I figure if people don't get called out on their behaviour then they'll always think they can get away with it. You won't have done anything wrong, but just try and feel grateful that you've managed to avoid someone who doesn't have the decency to be honest with you.

See @crackofdoom those conversations are well awkward poor Mr Double Decker for having the feels for you & wanting to know where he stood. Fair play to you for letting him know gently how it is for you.

@TheCatWithTheHat thanks for all the intel and wisdoms shared. Blimey you've had a rich time of it over the past couple of years with your OLD adventures haven't you. Was the woman who ticked so many boxes, looked like a soulmate & indicated she was feeling the same way about you 'the one that got away'? How did it end of it got underway so positively and what was your gut telling you that you ignored?

I've been reading up on dating and one article very much echoes what you have said - it's important to relax and enjoy the ride instead of being all insecure about the status of a relationship early on as this can affect one's behaviour and comms (eg. start to appear needy & non-authentic) & ultimately as you say it's two individuals figuring out if they believe the other is right for them/matches what they are looking for.

I've managed to prise the rose-tinted goggles off & reminded myself Mr VW is not 'perfect' as no-one is.
Hoping as I head to Date #6 with him I'm giving the right air of interest vs coolnesss. Suspect if any over exuberance on my part slipped out it could be a turn off for him.
Have read that men value women more they feel they have chased to acquire but this is verging on the game-playing, overthinking and being inauthentic which doesn't help the 'are we right for each other'

Back to the basic Q 'do we want to see each other for next date?' if yes then proceed. If no then halt & end.

@Ruralbliss I know you weren't asking for advice in your last post but just catching up on the thread I've noticed you're doing a fair bit of letting the man you're seeing lead things and managing your emotions to a level that you think he will find acceptable. Fwiw I never found this to be an authentic way to date and looking back its the occasions I did this that I regret (along with a few howlers).

You said earlier fwb wasn't what you were looking for.

I guess I'm suggesting that you have a few incongruencies going on there.

@Ruralbliss
Sorry I'm late back to the conversation around oral but your comment about feeling awkward made me laugh because thats how i felt the first few times i met a new guy for sex...my main concern is what does my face look like during oral🤦‍♀️
Too be fair i worried about my face during all sex but the more body confident i got the more i give no shits and just enjoy myself and I've realised men dont actually care about your expressions during sex (except if you're crying or hurt i guess🤣)

I do have to agree with supercali, you are spending an awful lot of time ruminating and planning over Mr VW.
You should alaays be yourself and if FWB isnt for you then you need to say.

Are you overinvesting in him or did his abusive ex story tug at your heart strings and so you have an extra layer of care?

I'm a bit shocked he has been so open about an abusive relationship so early on, women are told not to mention it for a long time in case men are looking out for vulnerable women and use that as ammunition.
I mean its great that men can speak up about abuse but i still think its quite early.

Dropping back in for a slap and I’ve rehydrated my OLD profile. 2 months on from a rebound relationship, in which I was the rebound, I find myself replaying it in my head. Perhaps in part due to the mental space afforded by lockdown. I haven’t deliberately done no contact but haven’t been in contact as I wanted it to continue. However she hasn’t been in touch with me either and I’m fighting the urge to see how she is. Partly finished because she was in midst of messy divorce (although she hopped back on the apps pretty sharpish). I should just leave it right?

Must say the whole experience has put me off dating somewhat, even though I know it was a rebound. @TheCatWithTheHat, it was somewhat like a potted version of your relationship but not so serious. Sorry to hear all this. So not uncommon reading through this thread. There’s so much wisdom, humour and emotional literacy on here it’s incredibly helpful.

Thanks all I've given my head a huge wobble.
Not going to do any thinking about MrVW outside of being with him in person or on phone - I'm grateful to have a lockdown romantic support bubble, we seem to be a great match as far as I'm concerned & we both indicated we were looking for a permanent partner from the outset.

Just need to focus on my life which is full & busy & stop acting like a daft infatuated teen as have senior role in big org, kids - one of whom is chronically and seriously ill etc etc

@SortingItOut I don't believe he's read the memo about advising against sharing details of past toxicity. It has only come up because the abuse is sadly ongoing poor sod.

This info and all the detail messed with my head big time in many ways so I'm going to file it away & pretend I was unaware and take each interaction we have at face value. Annoyingly I have lots of insight due to my own crap marriage but I'm no trained psychotherapist so will ignore the temptation to enquire and pry unless it comes out from him naturally.

Thanks again all