Page 8 | To leave France

oakleaffy · 03/10/2020 15:50

@Gwenhwyfar

"Every pub is pretty much a welcoming place wherever you are from, and there is a fluid social life that you describe very well, and everyone is welcome."

What??
There are plenty of 'locals' pubs in the UK where any new person is just stared at. There are still places where women can't go and drink alone without being stared at or bothered.

Absolutely. ''The slaughtered lamb'' being typical.

Asterion · 03/10/2020 15:51

I think that the one question you aren't addressing is children. It's all very well having a long-distance relationship with your DP, but you're 35 and if you do want to have children, maybe now is the time to be considering where you want to have them.

SuzieCarmichael · 03/10/2020 15:52

OP, I think you need to do some thinking to unpick the various factors here. Here are some questions to ponder on - am not saying you should have firm answers to them right now but they should definitely shape your thinking about what you do with yourself ...

do you want kids? Without wishing to scaremonger, you’re in your early 30s - you’re going to have to decide one way or the other in the coming decade.
if you do want kids, do you want them with this man?
your job is unfulfilling; what other roles available at the moment in your current area might be more fulfilling and worth a try?
do you see yourself wanting to live or travel elsewhere in the EU at a later date - or wanting to know that you can if you decided to in future? If so, getting French citizenship has surely got to be a priority for the next couple of years (assuming you’re not entitled to Irish citizenship or any other EU citizenship).
change of career: are there other roles/paths you’d consider, in addition to your main aspiration? Are they more doable in France or UK (or no difference)? How would you finance retraining and does the opportunity for financial support differ between France and the U.K.?
would your DP consider you moving to somewhere else in France that has more sociability, opportunities etc, while he stays put? Is there a city near you that you could move to?

I think at the moment you are kind of chasing yourself in circles because you want to change various things but it’s hard to know where to start. I think you have to just make one decision about one aspect of all this and then gradually the other things will fall into place.

Asterion · 03/10/2020 15:55

There won't be any problem for UK citizens travelling in the EU after Brexit. We'll just need a visa.

Mix56 · 03/10/2020 15:56

After 5 years of marriage you could get a French passport whether you live there or not this is absolutely not the case now
I am married to a French man, lived in France for 30+ years, have 2 kids born & living here, & a bona fide tax paying resident.
I have finally got French Citizenship, after 2 years. but had to jump through hoops for it, it was NOT a done deal, There were piles of documents to provide (incl. who, what & where my brothers were etc.....)
face to face interview, History to learn, potentially having to be able to sing their national anthem...... a "descente" by the gendarmerie in bullet proof jackets & with machine guns...on an Easter Sunday to check I actually lived here, with whom etc. ( I was putting my laundry out & in PJs.....) very scary & intimidating.

Abhannmor · 03/10/2020 15:56

@CroissantMuncher

I have a DP (French) I love and a job that is deeply unfulfilling but pays well. We live in France and I can now apply for citizenship: it will take 2 years for that to be processed.

I am bilingual so there is no language issue. I just find myself missing living in the UK for lots of reasons. I feel like I'm done with france and what I would actually like to do is go back to the UK and retrain in psychology.

I'm 34. All my family and friends in the UK say I'm mad, France is so much better (whilst they still live in the UK....), that I'm throwing away my chance at an EU passport post Brexit, that I'm throwing away my relationship (he refuses to move).

I really dont know what to do. On the one hand settled life with DP in France. On the other hand change career and go back to UK. Part of me thinks I could regret leaving so close to getting citizenship. Another part of me thinks life is short.

Anyone been in a similar quandary or have any thoughts?

Apply for citizenship pronto , especially if it is dual citizenship. Then, if Johnson get a great deal and things look better, you can always return anyway?

Mix56 · 03/10/2020 15:57

I also know of several people who have lived here for decades, have businesses etc, that been refused

OneKeyAtATime · 03/10/2020 15:58

Anyone who says the uk is a shitshow, have you actually lived in France?
Op apply for citizenship so you can work anywhere in Europe later in life but do come back if you are so inclined

dreamingbohemian · 03/10/2020 15:58

I've just moved back to the UK from Germany. I cannot tell you how many times people have told us we're absolutely crazy to do so, but I am so so happy to be back. So you're not crazy to think about it!

We'd been living in France (44) for a few years and then Germany. I agree the reality of living in France is very different from what you see even on extended holidays. And yes Berlin is an amazing city, Germany is so well run etc and so on, but there again are a lot of downsides that you don't see until you live there long-term.

I desperately wanted to move back to London and luckily my DH was agreeable. (He is French but finds living in France too stressful :)

Yes things are very bad in many ways here, we are not in denial about that, but at the end of the day it feels like home to us, we have friends/family/work here, and people are generally so much nicer.

My advice would be to apply for citizenship now because they are fast-tracking Brits still because of Brexit, so it may take less than two years. Take some online courses to make sure psychology is really what you want to do. Come back to the UK for extended visits when you can. And then make the final decision when your citizenship comes through.

Original poster

CroissantMuncher · 03/10/2020 16:01

@Mix56

Yes, they say that citizenship is "a privilege and not a right", so it could be a bit of a gamble. Especially since I'm applying on fairly flimsy grounds (two-year postgrad). Doable, but not a given.

However I've just had a thought, which is that when you apply for the carte de séjour (residency permit) I believe its granted for a 5 year period and you're allowed to live elsewhere during that time (I THINK. Need to go and check). So that could be a workaround for me.

OP posts:

HollywoodHandshake · 03/10/2020 16:02

I would come home to visit and wonder why I didn't appreciate it more when I lived in England, because it is such a lovely kind country, friendly and also fun. Everyone is up for a drink, a party or a visit to the pub.

are we living in the same country?

There are countless threads about native English posters being unwelcome at best when they relocate somewhere else within our borders, the level of racism and anti-semitism are through the roof, it's certainly not more welcoming than most countries.

Unless you are a student (pre-covid unfortunately), people are just ... people, have a life, jobs, families and responsibilities. Where do you meet people up for a party every night of the week?

dontdisturbmenow · 03/10/2020 16:04

mental health nursing or counselling
To become a respected counsellor and/or salaried, you will be expected to do a Masters and again, have some experience to get on.

Ok if you can afford the Masters and manage to earn enough to support yourself whilst gaining relevant experience, most likely on a volunteering basis. This would need to be for at least a year. Certainly not as competitive but still not straight forward to get on a Masters.

Mental Health Nursing requires a nursing degree if working in a hospital.

Counselling is quite poorly paid until after many years of qualification and experience.

Mental Health Nursing is very pressurised and stressful.

Again, definitely doesn't mean it's impossible, but maybe not as easy as envisioned.

elmouno · 03/10/2020 16:06

Plan for no jobs after Brexit + pandemic. It's silly to uproot in to turmoil now when even if you retrain there will be nothing for you to do after the degree. People need to stop selling themselves lies from the education system. The world as we used to know it is over.

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 03/10/2020 16:07

[quote CroissantMuncher]@OhCrumbsWhereNow
Thank you for sharing your story, it's interesting to hear from all sides and I'm so glad you are happy with your decision. How did you feel about leaving your DP, were you happy in your relationship? Because obviously that's another aspect on top of the whole Brexit and citizenship mess. He may well be inflexible but I do love him and our day to day life is very chilled and supportive. He would be so upset. He is a close friend as well as a DP to me, I'd say.[/quote]
It was one of those relationships that was too good to leave, but not good enough that I wanted to marry him. On a day to day basis we had lots of fun, but something was missing.

I remember saying to my mother than I couldn't imagine spending the rest of my life with someone who didn't find Private Eye funny.

He didn't really have an interest in things happening outside our immediate work/life environment and that was a problem for me. He'd also never bothered with university - only child with family businesses so not point - and just wasn't curious in that direction.

I think I might have been more inclined to stay if I'd been living in the North - Milan or Padua or somewhere like that. Tuscany was way too provincial - I felt as if I was slowly suffocating a lot of the time.

I'm still friends with the ex - to the point that DH and I have stayed with him when we were on holiday over there.

Original poster

CroissantMuncher · 03/10/2020 16:09

@OhCrumbsWhereNow
Oh my god...I am with a French version of your ex!!!

OP posts:

HollywoodHandshake · 03/10/2020 16:16

The world as we used to know it is over.

we are not quite there just yet

DameFanny · 03/10/2020 16:17

@Friendsoftheearth

The value of the citizenship is only important if you wish to stay....

Or if you wish to live and/or workanywhere else in the EU, which is the massive thing we just gave up

Original poster

CroissantMuncher · 03/10/2020 16:19

@dontdisturbmenow
Thanks for taking the time to detail this, I definitely need to do more research into what my options would be if the end goal didn't work out. I feel quite confident in my academic abilities, I got a first for my BA and then a scholarship to do my Masters in France. But I know that I will be up against people who are just as academic, if not more so, with more experience to boot. Having said that, I'm not against doing low paid work for a few years to get experience. In fact for a number of reasons that would be pretty welcome.

I really don't know about the kids thing. To be honest I have been tying myself in knots over all of this for the past two years, to the point that I feel trapped in my own mind if that makes sense, and I no longer have any clear idea about much at all. It seems like every time I make progress thinking about one aspect, then the reality of what I would be closing a door on (DP, France, citizenship, or life in the UK), I end up right back at the start of my questioning. Like I'm endlessly stuck on loop. I don't even know about kids because I have no mental space to even consider that.
Right now, on edge from all of this, living where I do, no, I don't want kids, I think they would be the death of me.
If I were living in the UK and with a different man? Or somewhere like Nice with DP? Maybe that would be a different story.

I feel like I need to just make a decision and stick with it, but when I have done that (with France), I've found myself back cycling to the start all over again, as if I cant really make peace with it. It's really messing with my mind.

OP posts:

AcrossthePond55 · 03/10/2020 16:19

I'm in the US so know nothing about the UK vs France schooling aspect, but couldn't you start the training in France and apply for citizenship? If you feel your grounds are 'flimsy' wouldn't attending a French school for a French Psych degree indicate that you were 'planning on living in France'?

Would any of the courses you take be transferable to the UK degree either as academic credits or practical experience?

Honestly, if I could get any 2nd passport I certainly would. Looked into UK citizenship but my dad 'broke the chain' so I don't qualify.

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 03/10/2020 16:20

Oh dear!

Don't under-estimate the importance of being with someone who has the same intellectual interests and curiosities as you do (sounds awfully snobby, but it can massively impact your relationship no matter how kind, practical and romantic they are).

I didn't want to be on a pedestal being spoilt rotten, or endless gossipy conversations about who was dating who in the village (it was so provincial they knew what you thought before you thought it), I wanted to have a good row about the economy or who would win the US election or why one country does x and another does y.

I grew up overseas so it wasn't even as if I had childhood memories of some idyllic England, but I found the ex's lack of interest in the wider world a frustration. He'd never been on a plane or even on holiday outside Italy until he met me, and was somewhat reluctant to do so... why would you? What could possibly be better than Italy elsewhere? What if... you didn't like the food ?

Sarahandco · 03/10/2020 16:21

If you apply for any masters this year it will almost certainly be online learning so why not apply and complete it from France?

Do you need citizenship? wait and see what comes out of the final EU deal, who knows, maybe there will be shocking good news - like British people can work in France!

Or maybe we will rejoin the EU in 3 years time - who bloody knows at the moment.

Sometimes being in what some people would consider paradise without family is not as good as living somewhere with family that is less paradisey

Original poster

CroissantMuncher · 03/10/2020 16:23

@OhCrumbsWhereNow
I think we have had the same life! I also grew up overseas. And I know exactly what you mean. My DP runs a bar in his village. So often I'm just at home in these evenings with too much time to brood. And it does feel strange and a bit out of kilter to be thinking about places to move to, retraining etc, when your DP isnt interested in any of that. In some ways its reassuring and relaxing. In other ways it can feel lonely.

OP posts:

Ilovegreentomatoes · 03/10/2020 16:27

I would only ever live in uk.I go on holiday for more than a week and get homesick and want to come back!.

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 03/10/2020 16:27

[quote CroissantMuncher]@dontdisturbmenow
Thanks for taking the time to detail this, I definitely need to do more research into what my options would be if the end goal didn't work out. I feel quite confident in my academic abilities, I got a first for my BA and then a scholarship to do my Masters in France. But I know that I will be up against people who are just as academic, if not more so, with more experience to boot. Having said that, I'm not against doing low paid work for a few years to get experience. In fact for a number of reasons that would be pretty welcome.

I really don't know about the kids thing. To be honest I have been tying myself in knots over all of this for the past two years, to the point that I feel trapped in my own mind if that makes sense, and I no longer have any clear idea about much at all. It seems like every time I make progress thinking about one aspect, then the reality of what I would be closing a door on (DP, France, citizenship, or life in the UK), I end up right back at the start of my questioning. Like I'm endlessly stuck on loop. I don't even know about kids because I have no mental space to even consider that.
Right now, on edge from all of this, living where I do, no, I don't want kids, I think they would be the death of me.
If I were living in the UK and with a different man? Or somewhere like Nice with DP? Maybe that would be a different story.

I feel like I need to just make a decision and stick with it, but when I have done that (with France), I've found myself back cycling to the start all over again, as if I cant really make peace with it. It's really messing with my mind.[/quote]
This sounds very like the circular arguments I went through for a couple of years and completely messed with my head.

All I can say is that once I moved back to the UK and met DH, I have NEVER thought 'What if...'

And yes I had swapped sunny Tuscany for an ex-council flat in South London - but I felt that I belonged and I was home.

SuperEkstra · 03/10/2020 16:28

@CroissantMuncher I mean you will be coming back to to uk to be a student, and then to (probably) work I'm very low paid jobs whilst you get your foot in the door for clinical psychology experience. This could take years and years. There's a reason most people do it when they're younger - it's easier to be a Band 3 support worker doing shifts when you haven't had the experience of living a different life style. You are my age and I wouldn't want to spend the next 10 years in low paid work for a career that odds are, I won't get into.