September 2020 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's now September 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi @Pearsapiece, can totally understand how frustrated you feel with your parents but it's like talking Chinese to someone who only speaks Italian. They don't understand your language and have no intention of taking lessons.

You are wasting your precious energy and emotions on this and need to learn to detach. Some suggestions are to vent your pent up resentment at someone who understands whether that's a therapist, a partner or a good friend or on here. Read everything you can about emotionally unavailable parents so that you can get an insight into why they are that way. Seek some relaxation everyday, yoga and meditation are wonderful. Have a good old scream and swear in the car, when you are alone.

The most difficult thing is accepting the way they are and letting go of any expectations that they will listen, apologise or accept responsibility.

What I have learnt through assertiveness training is to be calm and direct with unreasonable requests. Don't agree to anything immediately. Say you'll get back to them and then clearly say sorry I can't make Wednesday. Don't explain or justify. There are some good books on assertiveness that may be helpful to you.

Pearsapiece

It’s not you, it’s them and it’s not your fault they are this disordered of thinking. It’s likely too that your dad acts as his wife’s enabler and he really is your secondary abuser. He has abjectly failed you as a parent too, not just to you but to all of your siblings as well.

It is NOT possible to have a relationship with narcissistic parents. Women like your mother cannot do relationships so they always but always need a willing enabler to help them. This is your dad.

People from such dysfunctional abusive families end up playing roles. You are the scapegoat here and as such your child too will be scapegoated as well. You now need to drastically reduce all levels of interaction between you and they ultimately to zero sum. They will harm your kids in not too dissimilar ways as to how you have been harmed by them.

You really do need to start putting your own self first now because your parents have trained you from an early age to serve them at your overall expense. This will be hard for you because they have encouraged you to have no real boundaries.

I would suggest you find a therapist and one at that who does not have any familial bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment. I would also suggest you look at the Out of the Fog website and keep posting here too.

These people will never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. You will also have to let go of any and all residual hope that they will change.

Your replies are appreciated so much, thank you. Its so difficult to articulate myself a lot of the time because I'm naturally an emotional person.
I'm going to do some reading over the coming weeks are really know and understand how I can deal with this and what to say when.
I need to limit contact with them to a point where I don't feel I owe them anything no matter what they say and I am in control of when and under what circumstances I see them.

You will also need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got.

And re contact you will also have to lower this to zero ultimately. As I have already mentioned it is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist.

@Pearsapiece Unfortunately people like this never apologise for anything. It’s always someone’s else fault according to them. Sometimes they will invent things to make this work. At the very best the most you can get is a “sorry you feel that way”, which isn’t a real apology. As you mention, they will often suggest you both just put it behind you (sometimes this will involve lovebombing too).

You can’t make them see what they don’t want to see. All you can do to avoid this happening is to minimise the amount of time you spend with them.

I've woken up this morning and re read these replies. Thank you so much. Some of the things that have been said are so bloody true. Especially @AttilaTheMeerkat post about members of the family playing roles.
This isn't about me anymore, this is about protecting my children from toxic relationships and protecting them from seeing me in such a state as a result of what my parents out me through every time I see them.
I have always been seen as the scapegoat and still am. My brothers and sister are left to their own devices and a lot is put on me. It is accepted that my brothers are 'so busy with work' that they don't have time to see my parents, however if I miss one week of seeing them, they start with the offers of buying the kids things to create a reason for me to see them or like they did yesterday, say my not seeing them is ruining other arrangements for them.
I'm going to devote some time to researching this over the next few weeks. I feel I'm finally in a strong place to deal with this without a massive emotional argument coming from it.
I have to learn to remember I don't owe them anything at all.
And you're also right about needing to greive the relationship I should have had, and accepting the relationship I got.
I feel its a long, difficult road a head but I need to do it

@Mrsmadevans

. She puts her head down and willnot acknowledge l am speaking or talk to us , it is so maddening , makes us feel terrrible as if we have hit her It is all about her never being satisfied and wanting attention and us waiting on her hand and foot. She never asks for us to do it either she manages to guilt trip us into doing the job without even asking us to do it. I don't know why but l must have MUG written in big black letters on my forehead.

These are proactive, deliberate, well honed, manipulative behaviours.

It’s emotionally abusive and is all about power and control.

The power to load you with guilt whilst they swerve any accusation of being unreasonable by their slithering approach - and the sulk, silence, licking wounds once they land that punch under the belt knowing exactly where to trigger you.

Learn to observe and understand the stages in this process and the patterns. Then decide how you will RESPOND another REACT. Don’t let them complete the cycle of abuse where they are unreasonable but “magically” leave you with the guilt.

Expect that they will erupt the first few times you calmly and clearly put down a boundary by saying No - I won’t be doing that. Etc. Look at the onslaught as weather - a thunderstorm of rants from them that will pass. You don’t have to stand in it. You can remove yourself from the situation or the conversation. “I have nothing further to say”

• don’t get drawn. Who cares if they have a tantrum - that’s still part of the manipulative - expect it. Protect yourself from it and trust that you can cope with it passing.

Sssloou thank you for seeing the truth for someone to validate what you are seeing/enduring is soul enhancing l am not exaggerating, thank you x

Hi all, hope it's okay to dip in here as I'm struggling this morning. Don't want to interrupt the flow of the conversations.

I'm not great at expressing how I feel and always manage to make situations with my family my fault however much I know deep down that it's not the case.

It's messy and long but I helped to bring up younger siblings. It was expected. Aggressively. Anyway I did a lot for them and tried to influence them the right way in the face of the violence, crime, alcoholism and dysfunction.

Anyway that didn't work and it's a very very long story to explain what had happened over the years but the end result is me, my husband and adult child are now estranged from everyone. (Slight contact with a few of them)

It breaks my heart that I encouraged, basically painted a false picture of how they actually were to my child so that my child could have a 'family' growing up. It would have been better in hindsight to have had nothing to do with them. I put all my eggs in one basket and felt a sibling wasn't necessary as my child had this family. I hate myself for this. I should have had another child.

I was suicidal in lockdown, so desperate and I contacted them. No one cared. No one bothered to check up on me. Even some of the less dysfunctional family members who I have some contact with. I just can't get my head around that.

Sorry I'm waffling now, but I just need to know I'm not alone. The posts on here make so much sense and I can resonate with so much especially about mothers and never apologising etc.

She's an awful woman. Truly awful and at the core of it all. And to be frank, she'll be dead one day and will have left an absolute fragmented mess between siblings and family members. I don't understand why people are so twisted and horrible.

(Sorry I have used 'my child' a lot rather than son/daughter. Trying to keep some anonymity.)

You are not alone bigbundlesofhay, truly you are not.

You are not to blame for your family of origin's dysfunction, none of that is your fault. You;ve come through all that shit, did not take their low road and did not do the same to your adult child as was done to you. Your parents had a choice when it came to you and they chose the low road.

Deal with any and all remaining fear, obligation and guilt through therapy. Love your own family unit, keep away from all of your family of origin and live well. All this will mitigate any harm going forwards to you all. You are loved by your own family unit of your H and your adult child and you are an integral part of that. The best revenge here is living well.

Thank you Attila. It means a lot that you've replied.

I just wish I could reset my mind I don't seem to be able to do it.

@Bigbundlesofhay - I had a similar “childhood” as the oldest child tasked with raising 6 younger siblings in a dysfunctional and chaotic single parent household where that parent had significant MH issues and their extended family were equally abusive to us all. It’s call parentification - look into that. It’s an impossible task - overwhelming responsibility with zero capability as an 8 year old to keep safe, discipline, organise young children and a household. Consequently it was chaotic, unruly - and I thought it was all my fault.

I thought my siblings valued my efforts but they just saw me as separate from them and a bossy, aggressive, controlling person.
Which I was the only “skills”I had in that situation.

As adults there were always snipes and incidents at me - I was included when I was needed to sort out their various life issues - debt, addictions, relationship breakdowns etc.

Recently a significant escalated incident (a crime) from the main ring leader on me and my family has allowed me to see the reality.

They are so enmeshed and entrenched in their childhood psyche that I am always the bossy big sister in their eyes that they can continue to take a swipe at and hurt - as the scapegoat for their also traumatic childhoods.

I have now taken myself out of punching distance by NC. I also made the mistake of trying to maintain contact for my DCs to have cousins / aunts / uncles. And this has been disastrous.

My reading on the relationship of the parentified child with their siblings is v clear - it’s almost impossible. They will always see you as someone to rail against - unless they undergo their own therapy.

But as others have said - best to use your energy to understand the emotional damage and deficits left on you by being in this role. And then to look to address them for you - so that you can make the best of your own life - be a better more confident mother, partner, friend - rather than one who is still deeply wounded, preoccupied and emotionally entangled with the origin of their pain - which is still continuing to hurt them.

Loads to unpick - traumatic childhood, then parentification, then the issues this still causes you in adult hood.

Don’t look to the origin of your pain to resolve or heal it - don’t expect your siblings to change - but look solely at your own emotional healing.

By the way my mother is long dead and the enmeshment just got stronger and more dysfunctional to cope with her loss to the dysfunctional system. It’s intergenerational - always someone to pick up the baton of queen / bitch / bee - and all the wannabes keep their assigned roles as it feels safe. But you as the scapegoat get even more shit. Don’t be me. Move on. Don’t look back and focus on self compassion, healing and the kind and respectful people in your life who deserve your headspace and time.

It’s a weird one parentification as you were abused by your parent but somehow you end up with some sort of irrational unconditional love/responsibility for your siblings because somehow they were your children. Painful and complex emotionally. But they never were your children and never wanted you to be their mother. I my case I was just the enforcer - they probably see me as a nasty prison guard!

@Sssloou I love your line:
Don’t look to the origin of your pain to resolve or heal it.

@Bigbundlesofhay sorry you are going through pain. I can't really say anything to help. My elder sister was in your position, I wasn't, saying that she is significantly older than me so when she left home I was still young and then I think I was parentified and charged with looking after myself (if that's possible)

Someone recommended to me the book CPTSD surviving to thriving by Pete Walker (I think!) and I'm finding it very helpful, perhaps you will too? x

I think I was parentified l had to look after my Mother & my functioning Alcoholic Father & Brother from a very young age. l did all the housework decorating, cleaning l was so quiet and just got on with everything. My Mum, Dad and brother rowed and rowed, very aggressve , sometimes violent drunken, fighting broke out between my Bother & Mum and Dad. I was always piggy in the middle trying to pull them apart/stop them fighting. My Mum was always threatening to kill herself/leave home , she left a few times and l witnessed her taking tablets and drinking on a few occasions. I just coped by looking after everyone and everything. I felt responsible . How a child of 8 can feel like that beggars belief.

Sssloou it really hurts and seems so unfair. I am so sorry . Thank you for being there for us all

Bigbundlesofhay it is so tough dealing with Alcoholism as a child , l wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. The denial/rows/ hiding of drink , neglect because of lack on money for food and clothes and the resulting violence is earthshattering to a child. I can remember never having any money for school dinners . I used to go without . I would never demand my dinner money and no one ever thought to give me some .

I had another question for those in the know.... how many therapists/ counsellors/ coaches/ psychologists are aware of narcissistic abuse in general? I've had counselling in different modalities over the years and I really do not think many are that aware of this narc stuff. I'd be interested to hear more experiences of this, am I looking in the wrong places?

Hello all, just to say thank you so much for your replies. I haven't disappeared, just a really busy day but I have been reading all of your replies and they're helping so much.

@LondonTowers

I had another question for those in the know.... how many therapists/ counsellors/ coaches/ psychologists are aware of narcissistic abuse in general? I've had counselling in different modalities over the years and I really do not think many are that aware of this narc stuff. I'd be interested to hear more experiences of this, am I looking in the wrong places?

They haven't got a clue unless they have been treated like it . You are dead right Londontowers the amount of psychologists, therapists even psychaitrists who know about Narc abuse or know, yet don't connect the dots is unbelievable.

Hi @LondonTowers, I have used various therapists but I would say my current therapist has been the most effective. He practices Gestalt and Humanistic therapy. Humanistic therapy is very effective for those who have suffered from narcissistic abuse because it basically accepts and validates your experiences without trying to challenge your perceptions. It's not so concerned with clinical diagnosis of others behaviours ie borderline, narcissistic etc. The validation of your experiences really helps the healing process. I feel like I have been re-parented in a way. Totally accepted for who I am, warts and all, and listened to which is something badly missing from narcissistic parenting. He also advocates changing the brain's function through meditation and mindfulness. It's a slow process but it really helps if you have 'chemistry' with your therapist. I feel totally safe and comfortable with him.

"as others have said - best to use your energy to understand the emotional damage and deficits left on you by being in this role. And then to look to address them for you - so that you can make the best of your own life - be a better more confident mother, partner, friend - rather than one who is still deeply wounded, preoccupied and emotionally entangled with the origin of their pain - which is still continuing to hurt them.

Loads to unpick - traumatic childhood, then parentification, then the issues this still causes you in adult hood.

Don’t look to the origin of your pain to resolve or heal it - don’t expect your siblings to change - but look solely at your own emotional healing."
Yes yes yes to this!

I'm back again, this thing is eating me up inside so much.
Still nothing from my mother since last night's message. I'm getting really anxious as tomorrow is Wednesday and I know some time of message, phone call or back handed guilt trip is coming. How do I handle it when it does?
She will try and brush it under the carpet but I've allowed that every other time and got no where.
As far as I see it, my options are
A. Say I'm not wanting to talk about how they have made me feel as I will contact them when I'm ready (but this then adds the complication of me feeling I HAVE to contact them)
B. I say no I'm not willing to brush it away, but this would mean addressing the issue. So then I would have to say that I feel I'm treated in a way I don't appreciate which they would then push me to eleborate on and it would just then open up a can of worms and conversation that's hard to shut down and keep calm control of.

I feel like option A is possibly prolonging the pain because I can't imagine they're going to happily accept what I've said and that I'm reducing contact with them. Where as option B leaves me open to an argument and they'll get my siblings to call me and see what's happened and ttry to 'talk me round'.
What Is my next step here?