September 2020 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's now September 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@MonkeyfromManchester so glad to hear that the advice has been helpful and things are going better for you!
Sounds like a huge amount has been going on. I'm sorry to have nothing to add but huge admiration for the strong and mature way you are all dealing with things.

Annnnnnnd, I spoke soon.

I went to bed this afternoon with a cracking migraine and woke up to Mr Monkey having a row with The Hag about vaccine day. Out of my niceness - why do I bother - I’d invited her post vaccine on Sat at about 5.30pm for some quick food.

Nothing fancy - just a veggie shepherd’s pie. We can eat that in an hour and we can manage the conversation talking about trivial shit so it doesn’t become the Hag Show and then get in her a cab and breathe.

The Hag has just been banging on about having “to go to bed at my normal time” e.g. 7pm (she gets up at 4am FFS like some nocturnal monster) so we’re supposed to change our plans. She never asks for what she wants e.g. could we have food earlier if that doesn’t put you out?

She does EVERYTHING by manipulation and sulking
‘so what time do you normally have breakfast on a Saturday. What time is your lunch, it’s just a sandwich?
”. “1pm”
. “I’ll come round then. I can have e sandwich”
. DP said “no, monkey has stuff to do in the morning and she’s cooking later”.
“Oh well, if I’m an inconvenience”
YES, YOU FUCKING ARE.
It didn’t end up in the huge row that she wanted. Mr Monkey said: “ok, you don’t want food at 5.30pm so we’ll have food another time”. She didn’t expect that. And he doesn’t row back on what he says now.
Christ, the manipulation. And bravo on him for taking the power away. She’s a fucking witch.

So it's been a couple of days since the huge fight with my mum and I've been struggling with my Mental Health.

She has shown she has no interest in moving forward, I'm vile and a lecturing bully! Apparently.

My Dad (seperated from my mum) starts his crap as well. Going in a Huff because I forgot to call him on Tuesday, I just spoke to him on NYE.

I was sharp but firm with him - told him he's childish and I don't respond to passive aggression... I can't be arsed with either of them.

I'm being iced out and it's reeking havoc with my anxiety

Bloody Bastards!

@MonkeyfromManchester you and your DH have the patience of a Saint! It's a shame it goes to waste on a vile woman.

My parents are in their 50s but I've known for a long time I won't be caring for them, the way I see it they rob my childhood, they're not having any more of my time

Monkey she's such an evil odious foul woman🤬
Aargghhh, even so Mr Monkey is doing well, he is standing up to her... facing her down.

I feel that you are also facing your parents down Countessk not that you're feeling any benefit from your efforts because it's just making you feel dreadful and stressed🤦‍♀️
Please stand firm, brinkmanship is being played, their refusal to back down is just a bluff, a way of gaslighting you into thinking that they have all the power.
I fact you have the most power, just hold on girl until you start to feel that power (apologies for sounding a bit cheesy 😶)

May I join this thread? Having looked through I feel I have found my people! I am so sorry with all the pain people are going through because of destructive parents.

I'm struggling a bit this week, as my mother, who has recently had to go into a home with dementia, is being referred to a challenging behaviour unit. The home has made it clear that they have been able to treat and manage the dementia side of things - it's the rest that is the problem. The rest is her punching people in the face, telling them they're evil, giving them chinese burns, trying to push them downstairs etc etc. And now she has to go in a unit with 1:1 attention 24/7. I understand this completely. And I was surprised she had behaved like that as I haven't seen that behaviour really since we were children. But nobody came in to protect us from her when she was doing things like rubbing shampoo in my brother's eyes to toughen him up, or throwing my sister to the ground and shouting at her to grow a spine, when she was crying after someone had been mean to her at school, or grabbing the front of my face and twisting it because I failed a test. She was under psychiatric care her whole life, but nobody once asked us, as her children, if we were OK. I struggle with that as much as with her abuse.

I know what you mean @adeleh. In my case I’ve been wondering for decades how my mother could just stand by and allow my father to emotionally abuse us. But I’m sure there were others who knew and nobody did anything 😔

It must be so triggering to hear about your mum’s behaviour now and to be reminded of how you were failed by those around you. I don’t have any real words of wisdom, but just wanted you to know that you’re not alone in having those feelings

Thanks crazzzy - and I'm sorry to hear about your father's abuse too.

Adeleh
I'm so sorry for what you went through💐
You and your siblings deserved an intervention, you deserve to be rescued from this women who abused and tormented you all.
How are you doing, how are your brothers and sisters?

How my mother could just stand by
Crazzzy I hear you and in my case it took me decades to even see this, one parent was the angry one the other parent was the calm one.
I was so brainwashed it took me years to notice that the 'nice' parent stood by and let the other one carry on, never intervened or even condemned any of their appalling behaviour.

@adeleh I am so sorry. What awful behaviour. It's really shocking when we are adults and a big trigger like this goes off, and we start to see with open eyes what we were subjected to. It's almost unbelievable, but then we realise it really did happen.

Thank you free and sicario.

I know what you mean, sicario. I can’t believe we all just accepted it. Sorry you’ve been through it too.

My siblings and I are doing ok, thanks, free, but I think we’re all a bit shocked to see her behaviour in a different setting. I’m sorry you were abused too.

.

Hi @adeleh - just checking in to say hope you're doing ok. Same shout out to everyone who is dealing with toxic family fallout situations. I've been watching "saving lives at sea" on BBC2 just now and thinking that's how it feels navigate these kinds of shit storms. Sometimes you have to call for a lifeboat.

Thanks sicario - I'm doing OK. I hope you are too? Spoke to my Mum on the phone tonight, and she was very helpless and scared and it was very sad. But am able to make some peace with the fact that that isn't our fault, and we did try our best for her. And I found a lovely lifeboat this week in the form of an old friend. I love your metaphor!
Hope everyone else is bearing up and not finding things too hard. Lockdown doesn't help, does it . . .

Hi everyone. I've been reading these threads in and off for years - so much resonates. I don't yet have the energy to commit it all to screen but much has happened lately to bring my despair to the surface.

I'm regarded as strong and steadfast (and I usually am) but I feel incredibly anxious and low at the moment.

In nut shell, I am a 44 year old mother of 3, happy marriage, steady job, child of a early divorce (I was 5). DM very very bitter but very vocal about the evil DF. I was told so many lies as a child - how my DF was an adulterer, how she hated and blamed my StepM for the breakdown, said that the StepM made silent phone calls etc, lied about too much to write down here. Very volatile woman so whilst I know she tried her best to provide - gifts, took us to hobbies etc. I also have way too many memories of being called "Bitch" and being punched and slapped, I also remember her picking up objects to hit us. Older brother in included in this but I was also his emotional and physical punchbag. He'd pester me sexually, then call me a slut and a slag when he used force.

I have memories of barricading myself in my bedroom as a teen (he was 6 years older) by moving a wardrobe and a chest of drawers closer to the door - making me able to sit with my back against the door and my legs against the drawers (so wedging myself in between the two IYSWIM) and forcing the door shut. He would batter and shoulder and kick the door to try and get in for hours on end. I'd only be safe when an adult returned.

It's all very jumbled but I found out via a third party (neutral, reliable) that my DM had an affair with my then StepD - and that it's her that was the cause of 2 marriage breakdowns. I've never confronted her because I know she'll lie and gaslight and scream and start accusing.

I'm very very fortunate that, despite much game-playing with custody etc as a child by my DM, that I've managed to maintain a close relationship with my DF. Not once did he ever bad mouth my DM. My StepM didn't meet my Dad until 2 years after the divorce yet that doesn't stop DM's bitterness and hatred.

I truly think she and my DBro have personality disorders. Truly.

Fast forward 40 years and I've tried to be a loyal DD but have been criticised for lots. Accused of crazy stuff, gaslighted, DM denying ever telling me that she'll never forgive me for being so close to DF - denied now. Her home life is chaotic - compulsive hoarder and abuses strong opioids, poor management of her lifestyle/ongoing health etc. Have tried so many times to help her shift the clutter, organise her meds, encourage her to re-think things. Older DBro very 'respectable' now and in a professional role. He keeps my DF at arms length because he swallowed the lies and, coupled with his personality, has a bit of a complex that everyone else is wrong apart from him. He and my DM are constantly in contact, unhealthily so.

It's all reared up since summer and I've reduced contact. I've had a barrage of abusive texts, accusations of neglect, theft (?!), lies, and my mistake was trying to reason, defend and justify. I don't respond to DBro's texts - I'm exhausted by it all. I hide a LOT from DH - he would explode on a nuclear level and I cannot bare the fall out. Seriously considering a move to NC now but always fearful of the future - who will help DM? She has no one else. I also have been on the receiving end of "my neighbours are appalled by you..." type thing from her. DBro lives about a 4 he drive away and does little to support her practically.

I have 3 teenagers and the text contact between them and DM and DBro are very sporadic - thanking them for cards and gifts etc, but I want to remove and block them from their phones at least. I feel that if they cannot be fair with me, then no way should they have access to my DC. Am I right?

Despite my calm appearance, I'm actually feeling distressed and tearful. I don't show much at home. My mental health I think is taking a hit and I'm just waiting for more texts. My DF and DSM are an incredible support - they know everything now and are very good in their management of the whole situation - supportive.

There's so much I could type - I'm sorry if you've got this far - I never expected to write this much. My emotions are all over the place.

Nel Hello😊
Who will help DM
Social services will help her, the state has a duty of care towards her.
You have no duty towards her and she completely and utterly failed you in her duties towards you. The reason you feel guilty is because she has brainwashed you and because you've been damaged by this chaotic disordered woman, not to mention your brother.
I'm very sorry for what happened to you Nel, try to focus on yourself and on what you need to heal and move forward.
Can you look at making a plan to distance yourself and then cut yourself off completely from your mother and your brother?

Nel

I would urge you to talk to your H more about your childhood along with finding a BACP registered therapist. Abuse thrives on secrecy and keeping this a secret does not help you any.

These people were not good to you when you were growing up and they have not changed. All you can do going forward is change how you react to them along with properly addressing your fear, obligation and guilt (three of many damaging legacies that your mother in particular instilled in you).

The state and Social Services will help your mother going forward; you do not owe your mother anything at all let alone a relationship here or to at all worry about her long term care. She has never apologised to you nor taken any responsibility for her actions let alone cared about or for you and she has facilitated your brother (he and your mother have a destructive enmeshed and codependent relationship) to abuse you too. None of this is or was your fault in any way; this is ALL on them.

None of your family, let alone yourself, should be in any form of contact with your two familial abusers. Give them also the age appropriate truth re these people.

You do realise as well that she is also committing a criminal offense by sending you a barrage of abusive text messages. If you have not already done so you absolutely need to block both she and your brother from being able to contact you or your family members.

Nel

Does your dad know what happened to you as a child at your mother's hands?. He may well not have bad mouthed your abusive mother but he escaped her and you two as his children were left with her (as likely happened to many other children at the time).

Nel

This link may well help you:-

outofthefog.website/what-to-do-1

Also click on their not what to do section.

@Free3mee3 thank you for your kindness. I welled up when reading your post.

That is ultimately what I want - to place distance between me and them. I should have mentioned that she has a medical condition which leads her to having rush to A&E for a procedure. Guess who she always calls? Even just recently after unleashing another shitstorm of texts to say how terrible a daughter I am? I wish there was someone else to deal with her but she literally has no one.

@AttilaTheMeerkat Thank you. I feel quite numb reading what you wrote. It makes sense what you say about the relationship she has with DBro. So many times, when he's ringing her for the 8th time to spill his latest thought, she has complained about him to me and how much of a burden he is, yet when I've (in the past) tried to support her in this, she accuses me of jealousy.

My DF now says he has huge regrets for not having done more, but I only started revealing the truth when I was about 17. Bit by bit. In the late 70's early 80's, I was unaware of support for children and pretty terrified of being taken away by "men in a van" - something she told me happened to naughty children.

I don't tell him everything because he's in his 80's and I don't want to distress him, but in a quiet moment of despair, he once said (out of the earshot of my lovely Stepm, "perhaps I should have stayed. I could have protected you". I honestly think my DF would have died years ago should that have happened - she would have bullied him into an early grave.

I've seen her bully her other close relatives too - mother, older sister, horrible things said to them when thy were at their frailest.

And despite all this, it's in my nature to feel that I am letting her down. I grieve for the brother I should have had and I pity the single, childless life he has, but I don't like the person he is or how he hurt me growing up.

I suffered clinical depression in my early 20's after a serious car crash where my best friend was killed and I, conscious but injured. I think I had a nervous breakdown later that year and was hospitalised and had much counselling. My family was discussed and I later felt that I was at peace with my childhood. I feel that I'm not at peace at all however. I don't feel strong anymore.

Hi,

I've been reading this thread and so much has resonated with me. I'm not sure my mother is as bad as others (no physical abuse or neglect) but certainly plenty of emotional manipulation, control, and narcissistic tendencies and such negativity.

The short version is a year ago I moved back home with my parents, as my rent was getting ridiculous (I live in an expensive city with a housing crisis), so I wanted to save for a mortgage deposit. Also, my father was diagnosed with dementia, and I thought I could move in for a year or two and help out.

Not long after that, my work contract was not renewed, and then Covid happened and the job situation was crap. Anyway, I decided to retrain into something I've wanted to do for a while, so I took the chance and applied, and started a course in September, which I love.

The problem is that I am now seriously stuck....I'm not working, and have gone through the small amount of savings I had, and there is no reasonable way for me to move out for the time being. It's practically fine, a large 4 bed house so I have my own space, keep to myself, do my own cooking, washing etc. but my mother is draining the life out of me, and I can't quite believe my life has ended up like this in my 30's.

She is incredibly negative about everyone/ thing that is different or she doesn't like, is obsessed with the news, and terrified of everything now. I understand covid is scary for my parents, but she takes it to the extreme and seems to want everyone to run around after her and jump to her demands.

I guess because that's what my father did for years, he was such a sweet, kind person, but also weak in a way, he would never stand up to her, never disagree, so she can't deal with it if me or my sister actually have a different opinion.
Lots of snarky comments, put downs, she's such a snob, reminds me of Hyacinth Bouqet, even though both her an my dad grew up in very poor areas, they simply bought at the right place, right time and were able to move up the housing ladder. She hasn't worked in 50 years but still tells me and my sister all about how should be in the workplace.

When I was looking at what apartments I could afford (hypothetical for when I eventually saved the deposit etc.) she was horrified that I would think of not-so-great areas, and doesn't understand that I could never afford to live where I grew up as a single applicant.

This christmas with her was really hard, she will demand something of me and if I don't comply immediately, or if I am busy I get the huffy treatment, she's like a child. Trying to talk to her about it is a nightmare, no discussion, only histronics, how I'm mean, I'm bullying her, how I need to lower my voice...for context, my voice is naturally louder than hers, which doesn't seem to be a problem if I'm agreeing with her! She's just always the victim, and can't ever take other people's needs on board.

The house is slowly falling down around us, but she refuses to get workmen in because she doesn't trust them, and claims poverty. Even though I know they have tens of thousands in savings. She will never get rid of stuff, so anything that breaks is just left to gather dust, so even though the house is big it feels like there is stuff everywhere and the walls are closing in.

My sister and I have recently been comparing notes and it turns out she was been playing us off each other, saying little remarks and bitching about one to the other...and has been doing it for years!

My older brother was the golden child, despite the fact that his anger outbursts blighted my childhood - he would rage and scream, punch holes in the wall, steal the car, once threw a chair though an upstairs window and set the front garden on fire!
And yet she never protected us from his anger, and doesn't seem to even now understand the fear that I had and the damage it did - I'm over reacting and being sensitive, apparently. If I ever brought it up in later years I'm punishing her...all I ever wanted was an acknowledgement of my feelings.

Anyway he has been no contact with her for a few years because his wife didn't like her, but she still put's him on a pedestal.

I know she's disappointed in how my life turned out, I'm not married and don't have children (I never wanted them), and walked away from a fancy corporate job a few years ago because the stress was too much, she hated that because she could no longer brag about me to the relatives...now I think she's embarrassed by me.

I know that life is tough for her, she's lonely and struggling - her husband of more than 50 years is slowly disappearing under the fog of dementia, and he would always run round after and put her on a pedestal, she can't handle that she now has to look after him and the shoe is on the other foot. I know that in the next few years she will need help from carers for his physical needs, but it's going to be hell trying to get her to accept that.

It's like she can never let go of control, and this is another thing she is keeping control of, even if it kills her. But she doesn't have any friends, because she doesn't have time for other people, it always has to be about her, and I guess people don't put up with that for long.

Anyway sorry about the essay...I just feel so stuck here. I love my course, but it means that I would have to stay for another year or two, and I'm not sure my mental health can handle it.

Nel I'm so sorry for all you went through, that sounds horrific. At least you stayed on good terms with your dad.

I understand what you mean about the guilt of there being no one else to deal with your mother if you walked away....I would love to walk away and not have to deal with her, but I would never get to see my dad, and the guilt of her being alone would be hard.

Monkey oh my god, the Hag sounds horrific! I can't believe you kept quiet about her for so long. But you're descriptions of her are hilarious